Speculation: Hamonic + MDC/Strome for Duchene

[JoemAvs]

I don't hate Landeskog, I'm just realistic about his value. Anyone not looking through the homer glasses, would be able to tell you he is a 55pts forward with decent two-way play, that is super inconsistent in his play and tends to disappear for long stretches.

His two-way play gets blown out of proportion all the time by Avs fans. It's ok, nothing special. It's not like he is on par with the ROR's/Bergeron's of the league.

Value-wise Landeskog is probably worth about a #2/#3 dman which is what Hamonic is. I'm not saying that is a good deal and the Avs should take it immediately as Hamonic doesn't fit what we need defensively. I'd just say the value is close.

I disagree with almost everything you just said so IMO you dislike him for whatever reason.
Landeskog might not be as good as ROR or Bergeron defensively but he is not far off either.
He is easily our best defensive forward and plays tough minutes and handles them well. He also is not more inconsistent or invisible than the rest of our guys.

Everyone has his favorites. That is fine. But trading Landeskog IMO would be one of the worst things the Avs could do. Especially if they "only" get a #2/3 in return (a #3 would be beyond putrid value by the way IMO).

He is more valuable to the Avs than Duchene just because of his defensive abilities. We don't have much else in that regard on the roster and it is showing.

Hamonic would not be a good return for him at all.




@ Measles:

And? That was a unique situation because Edmonton was desperate for a top pairing D and was willing to significantly overpay for it.
That will never happen again. Opportunity missed. Hamonic is not worth Hall and he never was.
Same goes for Duchene IMO.

 

[chet1926]

I'm a homer because I think two players on the same team are worth the same?

You make less and less sense with each passing day. And what makes the gap in their defensive game closer than some think? Your immaculate logic?

On what planet does a 65pts+, 30 goal scorer, top faceoff man, 1C = 55pts, decent (not top end) 2-way guy, top 6 winger

It doesn't. I'm just so sick of Avs fans trying to mold Landeskog into something he isn't. You have a 20-25 goal scoring, super inconsistent, slightly above average 2-way guy, who sparing uses his large frame effectively. Just because he has the C on his jersey doesn't make him some super hero leader either. I would actually probably question his leadership abilities considering how many poor years we've strung together in a row with consistent crap play with the same old mistakes.

I don't hate the guy, I'm just willing to call him what he is. He is not a bad player, but he isn't an elite level player either. He is a solid top 6 winger, who will give you 55pts at the end of the year, and can be counted on to not make egregious blunders in his own end.

 

[Ivan13]

It might be tough to comprehend but Landeskog is much better than Duchene defensively.

 

[Avs44]

On what planet does a 65pts+, 30 goal scorer, top faceoff man, 1C = 55pts, decent (not top end) 2-way guy, top 6 winger

It doesn't. I'm just so sick of Avs fans trying to mold Landeskog into something he isn't. You have a 20-25 goal scoring, super inconsistent, slightly above average 2-way guy, who sparing uses his large frame effectively. Just because he has the C on his jersey doesn't make him some super hero leader either. I would actually probably question his leadership abilities considering how many poor years we've strung together in a row with consistent crap play with the same old mistakes.

I don't hate the guy, I'm just willing to call him what he is. He is not a bad player, but he isn't an elite level player either. He is a solid top 6 winger, who will give you 55pts at the end of the year, and can be counted on to not make egregious blunders in his own end.

Yes, that's all you can count on Landeskog to do defensively, just to not screw up. Clearly you watch a different Avs team than the rest of us. That's probably the silliest analysis of Landeskog's abilities without the puck that I have seen.

 

[Ivan13]

Yes, that's all you can count on Landeskog to do defensively, just to not screw up. Clearly you watch a different Avs team than the rest of us.

He has an agenda, the only guy he ever whines about in GDT's is Landeskog, and it's obviously Landeskog's fault that half of the lineup is crap, if he was any good at being a captain he would motivate them to all play like Sakic clones.

 

[chet1926]

I disagree with almost everything you just said so IMO you dislike him for whatever reason.
Landeskog might not be as good as ROR or Bergeron defensively but he is not far off either.
He is easily our best defensive forward and plays tough minutes and handles them well. He also is not more inconsistent or invisible than the rest of our guys.

Everyone has his favorites. That is fine. But trading Landeskog IMO would be one of the worst things the Avs could do. Especially if they "only" get a #2/3 in return (a #3 would be beyond putrid value by the way IMO).

He is more valuable to the Avs than Duchene just because of his defensive abilities. We don't have much else in that regard on the roster and it is showing.

Hamonic would not be a good return for him at all.




@ Measles:

And? That was a unique situation because Edmonton was desperate for a top pairing D and was willing to significantly overpay for it.
That will never happen again. Opportunity missed. Hamonic is not worth Hall and he never was.
Same goes for Duchene IMO.

Landeskog is way more expendable at this point than Duchene. At least Duchene has consistently been able to put the puck in the net.

Please go watch ROR or Bergeron or Kopitar for a couple of games and tell me with a straight face that Landeskog is anywhere near them in two way play. He is not even close to them. If he was I wouldn't be having this conversation with you because I wouldn't dream of trading an elite level defensive forward for a #2/#3 dman. Let put this in perspective. Last year Landeskog didn't crack the top 50 in Selke voting, you know who did? Carl freaking Soderberg. The people around the league who get vote on who is the best defensive forward, decided that Soderberg deserved votes and they decided Landeskog didn't. Obviously not the only thing that can determine who is good and who isn't, but that's pretty telling of what pundits thought of Landeskog's game.

And you're just plain wrong about Duchene, he is probably the most important piece on the team at the moment, because he is the best offensive threat. And if was to be traded we'd be absolutely screwed. All I can say is MacKinnon better have a strong back, because he'd be carrying us every single game.

 

[JoemAvs]

Landeskog is way more expendable at this point than Duchene. At least Duchene has consistently been able to put the puck in the net.

Please go watch ROR or Bergeron or Kopitar for a couple of games and tell me with a straight face that Landeskog is anywhere near them in two way play. He is not even close to them. If he was I wouldn't be having this conversation with you because I wouldn't dream of trading an elite level defensive forward for a #2/#3 dman. Let put this in perspective. Last year Landeskog didn't crack the top 50 in Selke voting, you know who did? Carl freaking Soderberg. The people around the league who get vote on who is the best defensive forward, decided that Soderberg deserved votes and they decided Landeskog didn't. Obviously not the only thing that can determine who is good and who isn't, but that's pretty telling of what pundits thought of Landeskog's game.

And you're just plain wrong about Duchene, he is probably the most important piece on the team at the moment, because he is the best offensive threat. And if was to be traded we'd be absolutely screwed. All I can say is MacKinnon better have a strong back, because he'd be carrying us every single game.

Lets take this to the Avs board where so far everyone disagrees with you.


You are severely underrating Landeskog and that is somewhat surprising considering that you are an Avs fan. Either you are seeing something that almost none of the other Avs fans are seeing or you just dislike him for some odd reason. Maybe because he is the captain and therefore you blame him for our lean years?

Duchene is my favorite player and will probably be for a long time (as long as he stays with the Avs). I would never ever want to trade him in the first place if possible.
But he still is not more valuable than Landeskog IMO.

 

[chet1926]

He has an agenda, the only guy he ever whines about in GDT's is Landeskog, and it's obviously Landeskog's fault that half of the lineup is crap, if he was any good at being a captain he would motivate them to all play like Sakic clones.

I don't have an agenda, I just expect more out of the captain of the team, than what he has produced the past 3 seasons.

Sorry I don't have Avs blinders on. I've called out all our star players at some point or another, I ripped Duchene a new one at the beginning of this year when he was terrible. I ripped MacKinnon for being too predictable when all he was doing was using speed down the boards and then curling up instead of driving the net. I rip Varly all the time for his poor inconsistent play. I ripped Barrie hard just the other night when he was like -3 and had like 6 turnovers.

It's not my fault that you only pick and choose what you read of mine.

I rip Landy the hardest because he has the C on his chest, so expect consistent solid play from him. But he provides inconsistent play and goes on vacation every 7 games or so only to reappear 5 games later and have a stretch of 5 really good games. It's super frustrating.

 

[chet1926]

Lets take this to the Avs board where so far everyone disagrees with you.


You are severely underrating Landeskog and that is somewhat surprising considering that you are an Avs fan.

Duchene is my favorite player and will probably be for a long time (as long as he stays with the Avs). I would never ever want to trade him in the first place if possible.
But he still is not more valuable than Landeskog IMO.

I don't care what Avs fans on HF think. 99% of us are nothing more than fans, who just happen to have some knowledge and love of hockey. It will just turn into a popularity contest, because that is what every poll on HF turns into, it will prove absolutely nothing.

IMO Duchene>>>Landeskog, sorry that is just my opinion. If you can't accept that then fine. You can disagree with me all you want but you're not going to change my mind.

 

[JoemAvs]

I don't care what Avs fans on HF think. 99% of us are nothing more than fans, who just happen to have some knowledge and love of hockey. It will just turn into a popularity contest, because that is what every poll on HF turns into, it will prove absolutely nothing.

IMO Duchene>>>Landeskog, sorry that is just my opinion. If you can't accept that then fine. You can disagree with me all you want but you're not going to change my mind.

Looks to me that you are projecting the lack of recent success of the Avs onto the guy with the C on his chest and misevaluate him because of that.

I get it. Everyone needs a scapegoat sometimes.

That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I was just curious why yours feels so "off" to me. I am not here to change your mind.

I love both of those players (Duchene even a smidge more) and I don't blame Landeskog for a decision (IMO a wrong one. ROR should have gotten it back then and it could have spared us a lot of headaches) that was made by previous management.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Landeskog is way more expendable at this point than Duchene. At least Duchene has consistently been able to put the puck in the net.

Please go watch ROR or Bergeron or Kopitar for a couple of games and tell me with a straight face that Landeskog is anywhere near them in two way play. He is not even close to them. If he was I wouldn't be having this conversation with you because I wouldn't dream of trading an elite level defensive forward for a #2/#3 dman. Let put this in perspective. Last year Landeskog didn't crack the top 50 in Selke voting, you know who did? Carl freaking Soderberg. The people around the league who get vote on who is the best defensive forward, decided that Soderberg deserved votes and they decided Landeskog didn't. Obviously not the only thing that can determine who is good and who isn't, but that's pretty telling of what pundits thought of Landeskog's game.

And you're just plain wrong about Duchene, he is probably the most important piece on the team at the moment, because he is the best offensive threat. And if was to be traded we'd be absolutely screwed. All I can say is MacKinnon better have a strong back, because he'd be carrying us every single game.

I don't care what Avs fans on HF think. 99% of us are nothing more than fans, who just happen to have some knowledge and love of hockey. It will just turn into a popularity contest, because that is what every poll on HF turns into, it will prove absolutely nothing.

IMO Duchene>>>Landeskog, sorry that is just my opinion. If you can't accept that then fine. You can disagree with me all you want but you're not going to change my mind.

When was the last time a winger even came close to winning the Selke? You also bring up popularity contests right after talking about an NHL award lol. Most NHL awards are exactly that.

Reasonable people have compared Duchene and Landeskog offensively in the past, and Duchene beats him by a couple points per season. Funny enough that the goals you are talking about usually come when Duchene is at RW, and hes yet to prove that he can do that at center. Even this season hes played more RW than center.

 

[Omac13]

Listen I do not watch many Avs Games so strictly a outsider here but my observations here are this.

Despite having some legit INDIVIDUAL talent

Duchene
Landeskog
Mackinnion
Barrie

Some young up and coming talents

Rantanen
Bigras
Zadorov
Grigorenko

Some Veteran players
Iggy
Soderberg
Johnson
Boedker

They still suck and cant seem to win games consistently as a group. According to Hockey Futures their prospect pool is the worst in the NHL. There don't seem to be much help coming(Jost down the road maybe). Maybe a little shake up wouldn't be a bad thing.

Try and move one of the top 4 guys from the first group to help fill some future. Maybe its Duchene , maybe Landeskog who knows but its not working right now is all I am saying .

 

[FlamesFan18]

Listen I do not watch many Avs Games so strictly a outsider here but my observations here are this.

Despite having some legit INDIVIDUAL talent

Duchene
Landeskog
Mackinnion
Barrie

Some young up and coming talents

Rantanen
Bigras
Zadorov
Grigorenko

Some Veteran players
Iggy
Soderberg
Johnson
Boedker

They still suck and cant seem to win games consistently as a group. According to Hockey Futures their prospect pool is the worst in the NHL. There don't seem to be much help coming(Jost down the road maybe). Maybe a little shake up wouldn't be a bad thing.

Try and move one of the top 4 guys from the first group to help fill some future. Maybe its Duchene , maybe Landeskog who knows but its not working right now is all I am saying .

They dont have Boedker anymore and Iginla is awful.

 

[JoemAvs]

Listen I do not watch many Avs Games so strictly a outsider here but my observations here are this.

Despite having some legit INDIVIDUAL talent

Duchene
Landeskog
Mackinnion
Barrie

Some young up and coming talents

Rantanen
Bigras
Zadorov
Grigorenko

Some Veteran players
Iggy
Soderberg
Johnson
Boedker

They still suck and cant seem to win games consistently as a group. According to Hockey Futures their prospect pool is the worst in the NHL. There don't seem to be much help coming(Jost down the road maybe). Maybe a little shake up wouldn't be a bad thing.

Try and move one of the top 4 guys from the first group to help fill some future. Maybe its Duchene , maybe Landeskog who knows but its not working right now is all I am saying .

Avs are rated I think 8th on the latest prospect pool update by some hfboards partner (sry that I forgot the name and website. It should be somewhere on the prospect board). HF has not updated their rankings for over a year now.

The Avs just removed maybe their biggest problem in Roy and are facing growing pains right now under a new coach and a new system.

We are also saddled with quite a few old vets like Iginla who should not play but are getting paid right now. Same could be said for most of our depth players.


Boedker is not even on the team anymore.
Thanks for admitting that you don't have much clue about the Avs. That is fine.

But your whole premise is wrong.
The Avs are better than the Islanders right now and are not in a position at all to trade their top talent for futures unless that future involves a legit #1 D prospect (like say a Hanifin or Provorov) coming back.


The Avs need to get rid of all the (old) deadweight and continue to stock our prospect pool (which again is quite decent atm). Basically we need patience and for once not go for the quick fix. No need for making bad trades right now.

The Avs future atm looks a lot better than the Islanders future IMO.
So trading one of our top guys to the Islanders does not make much sense at all unless it is Varlamov to avoid losing him in the expansion draft.

 

[Made Dan]

Obviously you can only work with what's available, but I just feel that is the Isles are gonna be moving major pieces for a forward, it should be for someone who would definitely be playing with JT. I understand Matt plays some RW, but not sure how natural that is to him nor do I trust Capuano to properly deploy him (however that may be).

 

[joplin]

Colorado has to change something, because they are struggling for years now. I guess Duchene is their Taylor Hall. Like Edmonton they need help in their defense.
I don't see them moving Landeskog and MacKinnon, so Duchene is an odd man out...

 

[joplin]

...and Snow should finally give Tavares a decent winger or else Tavares might be gone and so could Snow...

 

[The Abusement Park]

Colorado has to change something, because they are struggling for years now. I guess Duchene is their Taylor Hall. Like Edmonton they need help in their defense.
I don't see them moving Landeskog and MacKinnon, so Duchene is an odd man out...

We don't need defense as much as offense ATM, how many times do we have to say this. Our defense is fine right now and we have nice prospects coming up as well in Bigras and Meloche. What we need is offensive depth, right now we have 3 top 6 guys and the rest are pretty much 4th liners or AHL'ers. Stop with the "Avs need defense mantra." It's getting old.

 

[JoemAvs]

Colorado has to change something, because they are struggling for years now. I guess Duchene is their Taylor Hall. Like Edmonton they need help in their defense.
I don't see them moving Landeskog and MacKinnon, so Duchene is an odd man out...

Why does Colorado have to change something? None of their core is over 30. Most of the guys 25 and younger.

We just got a new coach. Why do we have to change something?

And why is the best point producer the odd man out on an offensively challenged team?

 

[Omac13]

Avs are rated I think 8th on the latest prospect pool update by some hfboards partner (sry that I forgot the name and website. It should be somewhere on the prospect board). HF has not updated their rankings for over a year now.

The Avs just removed maybe their biggest problem in Roy and are facing growing pains right now under a new coach and a new system.

We are also saddled with quite a few old vets like Iginla who should not play but are getting paid right now. Same could be said for most of our depth players.


Boedker is not even on the team anymore.
Thanks for admitting that you don't have much clue about the Avs. That is fine.

But your whole premise is wrong.
The Avs are better than the Islanders right now and are not in a position at all to trade their top talent for futures unless that future involves a legit #1 D prospect (like say a Hanifin or Provorov) coming back.


The Avs need to get rid of all the (old) deadweight and continue to stock our prospect pool (which again is quite decent atm). Basically we need patience and for once not go for the quick fix. No need for making bad trades right now.

The Avs future atm looks a lot better than the Islanders future IMO.
So trading one of our top guys to the Islanders does not make much sense at all unless it is Varlamov to avoid losing him in the expansion draft.

I apologize for the Bodker thing I knew he was in SJ just forgot. Yes Hockey Futures hasn't updated In a while however the Avs haven't added much either. So I don't expect them to be a top 10 prospect system. I am not saying a trade with the Islanders is something to do just saying maybe moving ONE of the legit guys I mentioned wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to fill a need some where else. Yes I agree the Avs should stay the course and let what kids they do have develop and move up the system , as well potentially pick high this year(top 5) will help with that. Just saying that if you could acquire a young up and coming D man for one of your studs it might be something to consider. Not saying move Duchene for example for a older veteran , I am talking about adding future pieces for those guys. I don't have the right player nor do I can enough to try and suggest one, Just saying that that group is not getting it done together despite being good players.

 

[These Are The Days]

I can see why the deal would get done but it doesn't mean that it's a good idea

 

[Sheva7]

Would looove to see Duchene an Islander. However, I do not think selling low on Strome, to the point where he is simply seen as a throw-in, is a good idea. The kid is a good player who's been totally misued & broken by an incompetent & clueless coach.

 

[tucker3434]

I apologize for the Bodker thing I knew he was in SJ just forgot. Yes Hockey Futures hasn't updated In a while however the Avs haven't added much either. So I don't expect them to be a top 10 prospect system. I am not saying a trade with the Islanders is something to do just saying maybe moving ONE of the legit guys I mentioned wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to fill a need some where else. Yes I agree the Avs should stay the course and let what kids they do have develop and move up the system , as well potentially pick high this year(top 5) will help with that. Just saying that if you could acquire a young up and coming D man for one of your studs it might be something to consider. Not saying move Duchene for example for a older veteran , I am talking about adding future pieces for those guys. I don't have the right player nor do I can enough to try and suggest one, Just saying that that group is not getting it done together despite being good players.

This year the Avs have pretty solid Corsi and shot differential numbers. The defense is better than it has been in years.

The Avs problems are due to a bottom 5 shooting percentage. They're typically top half. The last time it was this low was the abysmal 12-13 team and even then it was .5% higher. You don't solve that by trading offense for more defense.

 

[RockLobster]

On what planet does a 65pts+, 30 goal scorer, top faceoff man, 1C = 55pts, decent (not top end) 2-way guy, top 6 winger

It doesn't. I'm just so sick of Avs fans trying to mold Landeskog into something he isn't. You have a 20-25 goal scoring, super inconsistent, slightly above average 2-way guy, who sparing uses his large frame effectively. Just because he has the C on his jersey doesn't make him some super hero leader either. I would actually probably question his leadership abilities considering how many poor years we've strung together in a row with consistent crap play with the same old mistakes.

I don't hate the guy, I'm just willing to call him what he is. He is not a bad player, but he isn't an elite level player either. He is a solid top 6 winger, who will give you 55pts at the end of the year, and can be counted on to not make egregious blunders in his own end.

Matt Duchene has scored 65 or more points exactly 2x in his 8 NHL seasons (7 if we take out the lockout-shortened season, which I'm fine to do). He's scored 30 goals exactly one (1) time in his 7 non-lockout shortened seasons. I wouldn't call him a 65+ point, 30 goal player.

You also have said that Landeskog is "streaky"--so is Duchene. You hilariously undercut Landeskog's defensive ability, I suspect to attempt to put it on par with Duchene's, but even then it's not. Duchene when he tries, can be a decent defensive player, he showed us in a VERY small sample size (the year he was trying to make Team Canada for the Olympics), but other than his defensive play is quite average, nothing really to write home about).

Matt Duchene has scored 389 points in 509 NHL games, a PPG clip of .76, which equates out to a 62 point season. So he's really closer to a 60 point player than a 65 point player who scores at a ~26 goal per season pace.

Gabe Landeskog has scored 254 points in 371 NHL games, a PPG clip of .68, which equates out to a 55 point season (7 point difference from Duchen's PPG equation), and has scored at a ~22 goal per season pace in his career thus far. It's far easier to peg Landeskog as a 20+ goal, 50+ point player with above-average/good defensive play than it is to say what you said about Duchene.

But then again, you are all about them hot takes...

 

[Lebowski]

I would not trade Hamonic for Duchene. Something around MacKinnon? Sure. But not Duchene.

You wouldn't trade Hamonic for Duchene? Seriously?

I don't even perceive these two player to be in the same tier.

Hamonic is a serviceable player, can be used as a #2... Probably a 2nd pairing guy on a contender. Duchene can be a gamebreaker on his own.