Habs vs Wings

[RedHawkDown]

Kindda the point im making. "Trend" doesnt mean much. There is 1% chance that Raymond even comes close to being as good as Kucherov, yet he is "trending" better than the russian.

Of course. Again that's true of all players. Habs fans are super excited about Demidov because he's trending much better than pretty much every recent Russian player since Ovechkin/Malkin. However, we all know that trending can turn out to mean nothing and Demidov could have any range of outcome from outright bust to a decent top 6 player to franchise superstar. It's true for every young player, not just Raymond. It just gives you a reason to be excited. That's it.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Where did I act surprised? I simply have disagreed with Habs fans throughout this thread. I would wager your take is just as homer as mine. It's not unreasonable to believe it though.

Im not the one using hyperboles like "trending SIGNIFICANTLY better" or "EASILY". You have homer takes, i don't.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Of course. Again that's true of all players. Habs fans are super excited about Demidov because he's trending much better than pretty much every recent Russian player since Ovechkin/Malkin. However, we all know that trending can turn out to mean nothing and Demidov could have any range of outcome from outright bust to a decent top 6 player to franchise superstar. It's true for every young player, not just Raymond. It just gives you a reason to be excited. That's it.

Yup future is impossible to predict accurately. That's why I focus on the present.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Im not the one using hyperboles like "trending SIGNIFICANTLY better" or "EASILY". You have homer takes, i don't.

OK. Nick Suzuki put up 61 pts in 82 games at Raymond's current age. Raymond will finish with 80-82. To me that is trending significantly better. Not sure what the point of this discussion even is anymore.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Yup future is impossible to predict accurately. That's why I focus on the present.

Totally fair. In that case the teams are pretty fairly matched. Montreal is only a few points ahead of Detroit and a few weeks ago it was reversed; if everyone remains as they are and nobody gets better it could go either way in the future, depending on FA signings etc.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Habs no doubt.

Once Demidov gets going the team will be really promising.

 

[NikolaTesla]

OK. Nick Suzuki put up 61 pts in 82 games at Raymond's current age. Raymond will finish with 80-82. To me that is trending significantly better. Not sure what the point of this discussion even is anymore.

But Suzuki was playing on literally the worst team of the league that year (finished dead last).

 

[RedHawkDown]

But Suzuki was playing on literally the worst team of the league that year (finished dead last).

OK? Larkin scored 53 in 71 on the 19-20 Wings, which was the worst team in the NHL by a massive margin, and one of the worst teams of the last 20 years. Does he get extra points for this? What about the following year, where Suzuki had 66 points in 82 games, but Montreal was at least 10 points better (still bad)? Obviously guys will score more as the team gets better. Raymond is not immune from this. He also played on some ass Red Wings teams for his first 2 seasons.

The Sharks are about to finish last again and Macklin Celebrini is still having a phenomenal season. It's impossible ot say what would have happened in a different scenario. You are the one that says you like to deal in reality and not hypotheticals. The reality is that Raymond is factually trending statistically better than Suzuki at the same age, and the eye test matches the fact that he has been getting significantly better every single year.

 

[NikolaTesla]

OK? Larkin scored 53 in 71 on the 19-20 Wings, which was the worst team in the NHL by a massive margin, and one of the worst teams of the last 20 years. Does he get extra points for this? What about the following year, where Suzuki had 66 points in 82 games, but

You just don't get it dont you. So youre saying larkin was trending better than plenty of current superstars. How come he didn't become a kucherov or a mackinnon?

Stutzle had 90 points as a 20 years old. How come he isn't even a ppg since?

 

[RedHawkDown]

You just don't get it dont you. So youre saying larkin was trending better than plenty of current superstars. How come he didn't become a kucherov or a mackinnon?

But…he wasn’t. He was never PPG at any point. He wasn’t trending better. He has trended similar to Suzuki has, ie 0.8 PPG to just below PPG . That’s my entire point…..

 

[NikolaTesla]

But…he wasn’t. He was never PPG at any point. He wasn’t trending better. He has trended similar to Suzuki has, ie 0.8 PPG to just below PPG . That’s my entire point…..

So just like Raymond?

 

[HabsMD97]

OK. Nick Suzuki put up 61 pts in 82 games at Raymond's current age. Raymond will finish with 80-82. To me that is trending significantly better. Not sure what the point of this discussion even is anymore.

This has been covered already. They produced at the exact same rate 5v5 with Suzuki playing on the worst team in the league and with worse linemates.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Pavel has said it all, but yeah I’ll also add Slaf is looking great - he could definitely end up better than Raymond, I’m not denying that. Funny that MTL fans assume we’re just going to be as hard core homers as them.

Would be very suprised if Slaf ended up being better than raymond

 

[NikolaTesla]

Would be very suprised if Slaf ended up being better than raymond

Me too but he brings things that Raymond doesn't.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Me too but he brings things that Raymond doesn't.

It’s nice to have some size on caufield and Suzukis wing

 

[NikolaTesla]

It’s nice to have some size on caufield and Suzukis wing

Yeah perfect compliment to the line.

 

[Pavels Dog]

This is a pointless argument. Slafkovsky have similar number than Mackinnon after 3years so what? Kucherov is near generational and Im ready to bet that Raymond never come close to what Kuch have done during is career

One doesn't need to believe Raymond will progress into what Kucherov became, but you also don't need to make hyperbolic arguments.

Raymond/Kucherov early progression is far more similar than Slafkovsky/Mackinnon, even with Raymond being 1 year younger relatively.

Slafkovsky first 3 years: 108 points in 193 games, 0.56pts/GP
Mackinnon first 3 years: 153 points in 218 games, 0.70pts/GP

Raymond first 3 years: 174 points in 238 games, 0.73pts/GP
Kucherov first 3 years: 149 points in 211 games, 0.71pts/GP

To be clear - I do NOT expect Raymond to reach Kucherov's ceiling. Could he become a consistent 90+ point winger though? I believe that's in the cards.

 

[bud12]

One doesn't need to believe Raymond will progress into what Kucherov became, but you also don't need to make hyperbolic arguments.

Raymond/Kucherov early progression is far more similar than Slafkovsky/Mackinnon, even with Raymond being 1 year younger relatively.

Slafkovsky first 3 years: 108 points in 193 games, 0.56pts/GP
Mackinnon first 3 years: 153 points in 218 games, 0.70pts/GP

Raymond first 3 years: 174 points in 238 games, 0.73pts/GP
Kucherov first 3 years: 149 points in 211 games, 0.71pts/GP

To be clear - I do NOT expect Raymond to reach Kucherov's ceiling. Could he become a consistent 90+ point winger though? I believe that's in the cards.

Again, progression isn't linear. So it's absolutly pointless. Question for you? Do you think Raymond progressed this year at 5v5? Statisticly, he didn't. He's production bump's coming from a red hot pp who's probably not sustainable. Can Raymond become a 90+point winger? Yes he could. Can Suzuki become a 90+ center? Yes he could. Doesn't mean they will do it and I fail to see the "significantly better" because right now, the better player is Suzuki.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Again, progression isn't linear. So it's absolutly pointless. Question for you? Do you think Raymond progressed this year at 5v5? Statisticly, he didn't. He's production bump's coming from a red hot pp who's probably not sustainable. Can Raymond become a 90+point winger? Yes he could. Can Suzuki become a 90+ center? Yes he could. Doesn't mean they will do it and I fail to see the "significantly better" because right now, the better player is Suzuki.

Like I said, the comparison doesn't mean I think he'll progress exctly like Kucherov, but most players who do what Raymond has done as a U23 player go on to become legit star level players.

I think overall, yes, Raymond improved as as a 5v5 player. Points wise? Perhaps not, but I'd chalk that up to the team being an absolute nightmare 5v5, especially under Lalonde. It's also worth noting that you and other Habs fans are very eager to talk about Detroit's "unsustainable" PP or the Wings high shooting % last season.

This year Raymond has an on-ice sh% of just 8.4%, and it's below 7% the last two months.
Even last season, it was below what Suzuki and other Habs players are at right now.

 

[bud12]

Like I said, the comparison doesn't mean I think he'll progress exctly like Kucherov, but most players who do what Raymond has done as a U23 player go on to become legit star level players.

I think overall, yes, Raymond improved as as a 5v5 player. Points wise? Perhaps not, but I'd chalk that up to the team being an absolute nightmare 5v5, especially under Lalonde. It's also worth noting that you and other Habs fans are very eager to talk about Detroit's "unsustainable" PP or the Wings high shooting % last season.

This year Raymond has an on-ice sh% of just 8.4%, and it's below 7% the last two months.
Even last season, it was below what Suzuki and other Habs players are at right now.

Talking about shooting%. No wings fans complained when Raymond own shooting% was near 20% in the middle of the year. While is oisht% is low at 5v5, his all situation isnt at 13,5%. When Raymond was leading Suzuki with 7pts around the middle of the year, I said that he had a really high shooting% and was way to reliant of the pp and that his production would likely decrease over time. Look like I was right. Raymond is a really good player. Maybe will have some 90pts season with the right supporting cast. But agains, what would make him "significantly better" than a center who will have some selke vote and who's on pace for near that right now.

 

[Sting]

I'm shocked the Wings are out of the playoff picture. Based on what I've been hearing on HF for the past few years, their rebuild is the cream of the crop and significantly further ahead than teams like Ottawa or Montreal. Why is the perception so far from reality??

 

[HabsMD97]

One doesn't need to believe Raymond will progress into what Kucherov became, but you also don't need to make hyperbolic arguments.

Raymond/Kucherov early progression is far more similar than Slafkovsky/Mackinnon, even with Raymond being 1 year younger relatively.

Slafkovsky first 3 years: 108 points in 193 games, 0.56pts/GP
Mackinnon first 3 years: 153 points in 218 games, 0.70pts/GP

Raymond first 3 years: 174 points in 238 games, 0.73pts/GP
Kucherov first 3 years: 149 points in 211 games, 0.71pts/GP

To be clear - I do NOT expect Raymond to reach Kucherov's ceiling. Could he become a consistent 90+ point winger though? I believe that's in the cards.

It's quite disingenuous to compare Kucherov's 1st 3 years which includes the 52 games he played on the 3rd/4th lines with scrubs. What is the goal of your comparisons? Because you're fudging the numbers to make your point. In his second season at 21, he was put in a top 6 role and produced 2.65 pts/60 5v5 which was amongst the highest in the league.

You keep just comparing basic PTS/GP which is very weird to me because it's extremely surface level and devoid of any context. You keep using Slafkovsky's 1st season as well in which he was literally only playing on the 4th line with spot duty on the 3rd line at times, BTW they were the 5th worst team in the league so their bottom 6 was basically composed of AHL players. To even compare his 1st season with Raymond's 1st season where he was glued to Larkin and a year older is laughable. You can't compare him to Mackinnon either since he was again playing in a different context.

Raymond is an important player to focus on since he is the best offensive weapon in DET's organization. In order to be a cup contender they need him to become a Pastrnak level player.

 

[SallyBalls]

I already explained that my point was at the same time in their careers. I’m not a dipshit. Of course Suzuki is not worse than Raymond as a player today, and was not at any point in the season. That’s obvious.

That’s my fault for not answering the question clearly. I’ll own that.

Debatable

 

[zenator]

i'd say Habs, as Hughes seems to be a better GM than Yzerman. Pro and amateur scouting are important too, but how the GM performs is the most important factor.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Habs for sure

First answer of this thread, just like in the thread about the Calder Trophy, where I called it for Hutson

Like I already said, I am never wrong, ever. I don't know how "being wrong" feels like. I didn't know how it even looked like up until some Detroit fan told me I was wrong about the Habs being better than Detroit, and than reality proved me right and now I got to see the impact of being wrong happened in real time on this Detroit fan