Lampedampe
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- Feb 26, 2015
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Habs vs Wings
- Thread starter Bigtrout
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...you people still arguing this??...most talking heads have our propect pools close; we're literally beside each other in the standings...lets just all hug it out and say we're really close... 
Egresch
Registered User
- Jul 10, 2022
- 1,235
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The year is 2031. Nate Danielson is PPG Top 6C ... in AHL, Applying the same stupid logicThe year is 2031. Kirby Dach is still a potential Top 6C who is being held back by injuries.
Egresch
Registered User
- Jul 10, 2022
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Buchelnikov average ice time is 17:29, Demidov has 12:44, they are not really close.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 31,876
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Lampedampe
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2015
- 2,589
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Larkin = Suzuki
Raymond > Caufield
Kasper < Slafkovsky
Seider > Hutson (Hutson will probably surpass, but i wanna see atleast 1 full season.)
Edvinsson > Reinbacher
Debrincat = Laine
Nygaard << Demidov
Danielson > Hage
Sandin-Pellikka >> Mailloux
Lombardi = Beck
Buchelnikov > Roy
Buium = Engström
Flame away guys.
I reckon it's really close.
Difference is that since 2018 Red Wings have had 1 top-5 pick while Montreal has had 1OA, 3OA, and 2 5OAs
Raymond > Caufield
Kasper < Slafkovsky
Seider > Hutson (Hutson will probably surpass, but i wanna see atleast 1 full season.)
Edvinsson > Reinbacher
Debrincat = Laine
Nygaard << Demidov
Danielson > Hage
Sandin-Pellikka >> Mailloux
Lombardi = Beck
Buchelnikov > Roy
Buium = Engström
Flame away guys.
I reckon it's really close.
Difference is that since 2018 Red Wings have had 1 top-5 pick while Montreal has had 1OA, 3OA, and 2 5OAs
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Pavels Dog
Registered User
Even with a pretty big homer take you're landing a minor advantage to Montreal, mostly in the unproven pieces (Dach, Hage, Demidov).Then it is even clearer.
Larkin = Suzuki they are very close, I am not wasting my time debating this
Raymond > Caufield
Kasper << Slafkovsky
DeBrincat = Laine
Danielson < Dach/Hage
MBN/Buchelnikov << Demidov
I might even agree that on pure talent/offense, Montreal's forward group is trending slightly ahead. But it's a slight advantage, and one that's depending on Demidov/Hage becoming what you hope, and at least one of Dach/Slafkovsky breaking out and reaching potential.
And Kasper is above PPG since being put together with Larkin and Raymond.
The year is 2031. Nate Danielson is PPG Top 6C ... in AHL, Applying the same stupid logic
I mean yeah, if Danielson were still half PPG in the AHL at 24 I'd probably be considering him a bust.
But here Kirby Dach is at 24, with a 30 point pace, on his 5th straight season now of "He's really good, it's just the injuries!"
Detroit has the top 4 players out of the entire Detroit and Montreal organizations - Larkin, Seider, Edvinsson, and Raymond. There is no one Montreal could offer that would convince me to trade any of these 4 in a one for one deal.
Stewie Griffin
What the deuce
This is just prime entertainment. Ridiculous takes on both sides.
I think they're very close. One is building a defensive team the other offensive. The one thing I will say is there's alot of projecting in Montreal's prospects. Which is fair, but if you're projecting them to become unreal there's also the chance they don't reach that.
I think they're very close. One is building a defensive team the other offensive. The one thing I will say is there's alot of projecting in Montreal's prospects. Which is fair, but if you're projecting them to become unreal there's also the chance they don't reach that.
Bigtrout
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2021
- 456
- 1,089
Seems kinda hopeless to try and have a legit discussion without getting swarmed by homers and rage baits
Stewie Griffin
What the deuce
There's so many comments in this thread I wanted to reply to but then I kept reading and was like, oh wait nvm the other fanbase just said something just as crazy...
Realistically:
Detroit's better defensively.
Both teams are pretty similar at forward and have intriguing prospects, but Montreal obviously has the biggest blue chip in Demidov.
Both have not one, but two good goalie prospects. I'd take Detroit's duo, but goalies are so incredibly unpredictable that we really have no idea where it's gonna go.
End of the day, both teams are relatively even at the NHL level right now, and the future is going to entirely depend on how they develop their current guys.
I will say I like how Hughes has weaponized cap better than Yzerman. I was pounding the table for us to take on Monahan from Calgary. I have the Athletic "Ask us" Mailbag publication as evidence.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
It was never the point! At least not MY point.
You seriously can't differentiate various posters? That is god damn amazing
I know what you are by the way. The typical nordiques fan living in the past. I was a nordiques fan too. I just dont live in the past like you.
You know you're in a sad place when you live in montreal and choose to be a senators fan
lol I was a Nordiques for like 3 years because they moved just a few years after I arrived in Canada! I don't need to do like everyone else so I never felt the need to be a Habs fan which is frankly great.
What, you don't see it... by yourself? lol is it a joke?
It was 243 words and it could have been my last post on the subject if you didn't start quoting me like an obsessed freak lol
I exchanged a few posts with another Habs fan Bigtrout, it was so much easier and fluid! But gotta admit, not as hilarious hahaha
Difference is that since 2018 Red Wings have had 1 top-5 pick while Montreal has had 1OA, 3OA, and 2 5OAs
Damn it's crazy, more than a lot of teams. Even Ottawa only got 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th (although Dorion is to blame for a lot of things)
Is Kotkaniemi, Slafkovský, Reinbacher and Demidov a good haul for 1 + 3 + 5 + 5 ???
I mean yeah, if Danielson were still half PPG in the AHL at 24 I'd probably be considering him a bust.
But here Kirby Dach is at 24, with a 30 point pace, on his 5th straight season now of "He's really good, it's just the injuries!"
It's actually his 6th season already... In 2 of these seasons, he only played 20 games total...
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FissionFire
Registered User
Hutson will surpass Seider offensively but I have serious doubts he will ever be better than him overall as a 1D, if he ever even reaches that level. Reinbacher is the Habs best hope for a true 1D.Larkin = Suzuki
Raymond > Caufield
Kasper < Slafkovsky
Seider > Hutson (Hutson will probably surpass, but i wanna see atleast 1 full season.)
Edvinsson > Reinbacher
Debrincat = Laine
Nygaard << Demidov
Danielson > Hage
Sandin-Pellikka >> Mailloux
Lombardi = Beck
Buchelnikov > Roy
Buium = Engström
Flame away guys.
I reckon it's really close.
Difference is that since 2018 Red Wings have had 1 top-5 pick while Montreal has had 1OA, 3OA, and 2 5OAs
Yeah and unfortunately hes missing this year of development and last year he also was injured for like half the season + he was playing for such a bad team in switzerland that he barely developed. I wish he would become as good as Seider but i highly doubt it will happen.
I like Detroit's scouting and developmental staff better than Montreal's particularly in Sweden. Info taken from articles written by Art Regner and Ryan Guenter.
Hakan Anderson is one of the most highly respected scouts in the NHL and was tasked by former GM Holland to find quality players mostly outside the first round while Detroit reserved the early rounds for their North American scouts. He was only 24 y.o. when Detroit hired him to be their chief European scout back in 1989.
Here is what the young Hakan had to say back then:
"For the first two or three years, Kenny was really good, he helped me along. We had a lot of conversations. There was a lot more draft picks back then. There was 12 rounds or something. So you were looking for more players. One of the things that we talked about was maybe taking a flier on some of the European players in the later rounds because he wasn't always happy with the late-round names that came from North America."
Some of Andersson's late round European "flier picks" turned out to have long and distinguished Red Wings careers. Tomas Holmstrom (257th overall,1994), Pavel Datsyuk (171st overall, 1998), Henrik Zetterberg (210th overall, 1999) and Jonathan Ericsson (291st overall, 2002).
He also was responsible for scouting other key pieces for the Redwings during Holland's tenure as GM including Niklas Kronwall, Jiri Hudler, Valteri Filippula, Johan Franzen, Gustav Nyquist, and Tomas Tatar. Of the above players only one was taken in the first round Kronwall who became a workhorse for Detroit on defence and is currently responsible for helping develop the Redwings prospects in Europe. An amazing feature about the above list of players is the fact that only one player was taken in the first round.
An amazing feature about this list is the fact that only one player was taken in the first round. While the caliber of player on this list varies, they all played more than 500 NHL games. Most importantly, this continuous draft thievery took place as the Red Wings were collecting four Stanley Cups. This meant the team was usually not “flush” with draft picks after using them to bolster the team accordingly.
For example, the Red Wings’ first selection was not until the fourth round of the 1999 NHL Entry Draft! This, of course, was a result of the back-to-back Red Wing cup victories in 1997 and 1998. Despite their lack of selections, the team was able to “steal” Henrik Zetterberg in the seventh round. In retrospect, the native of Njurunda (Sweden) should have been a top-10 pick in 1999.
Similarly, the Red Wings were not scheduled to make their first selection in 2004 until the third round when they took “the Swedish Mule” — Johan Franzen. In this case, the lack of early picks was the result of a third Stanley Cup in 2002, and last of the Steven Yzerman era.
One of the more memorable selections in Red Wings history took place in Buffalo, New York, during the 1998 NHL Draft. Detroit did have a first-round selection that year and took current Associate Director of Player Personnel, Jiri Fischer. However, it was the team’s sixth-round selection that most Detroit fans now distinctly recall. Of course, the team selected a young Russian player named Pavel Datsyuk with the 171st-overall pick that year. Andersson’s efforts in selecting the Russian superstar are now well documented.
In effect, Detroit kept “stocking the cupboards” — even when they were lacking premium draft picks. This obviously had a big impact on the Red Wings’ 25-straight playoff appearances from 1990 through 2016. It was also a big reason why the team was able to capture the 2008 Stanley Cup without longtime captain Yzerman. All of these organizational feats were in part due to the expertise and contributions of the now famous Håkan Andersson.
In effect, Detroit kept “stocking the cupboards” — even when they were lacking premium draft picks. This obviously had a big impact on the Red Wings’ 25-straight playoff appearances from 1990 through 2016. It was also a big reason why the team was able to capture the 2008 Stanley Cup without longtime captain Yzerman. All of these organizational feats were in part due to the expertise and contributions of the now famous Håkan Andersson.
Dallas Stars general manager Jim Nill worked with Andersson in Detroit's front office from 1994 until April 2013. Among Nill's responsibilities with the Red Wings was Director of Amateur Scouting, which included running the NHL Entry Draft.
Nill saw something in Andersson's ability to hone in on a players skill set which, if developed, could translate well into the NHL.
"A real passion for the game. He had a good feel," Nill said to describe Andersson as a scout. "There are certain attributes when you watch for scouting. Some people like size, some like skating. Hakan loved hockey sense. He loves guys that have good skills and good hockey sense. But he had a good way of projecting.
"The toughest part with scouting is we can watch Connor McDavid when he's 18 and say he's going to be a star, it's finding the Henrik Zetterberg's, the Pavel Datsyuk's, when they're underdeveloped, they're 18 years old, they can't skate good enough, but you got a feeling about them that that (skating) can get better, that's where he was good. He had a great way of projecting who he thought had a chance of playing because their weaknesses, he thought they could become strengths down the road. And he loved the hockey sense."
While former GM Holland relied on Anderson primarily to find players in the later drafts, current Redwings GM Yzerman and Director of Scouting Kris Draper who both respected and recognized Hakan's scouting abilities when they were still players with Detroit relied on him to help make decisions on the earlier rounds right from the start of their first draft in Detroit including first round picks Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond, Simon Edvinsson and Marco Kasper as well as later round picks Albert Johansson and 6'8" monster Elmer Soderblom(159th overall) all of whom are now vital pieces of Detroit's current resurgence not to mention exciting late round draft pick Russian Dmitri Buchelnikov who is excelling in the KHL as well as a player the Redwings decided to trade for this year Finn Jesse Kiiskinen who excelled for Finland in the recent World Junior Hockey Championships.
When Draper began overseeing the Red Wings' draft in 2020, he wanted to expand Andersson's duties to include three trips per year to North America because he wanted Andersson to see top-end North American talent. Andersson was all for it because it all comes down to building the Red Wings into an elite team competing for Stanley Cups.
"Sometimes I go in some kind of work mode where I just (feel), 'I'm hired to find players, I must get to work and find players. I want to win. I want the Red Wings to win. I don't care really about the passport,'" Andersson said.
Amongst the scouting community, the Stockholm native has reached near folklore status. It is rare for an individual scout to be recognized for his/her accomplishments before they reach the top echelon of the NHL executive ranks but not so for Hakan.
It is exciting to think that at 59, Andersson is basically still in his talent identification prime. Already a winner of four Cups with the Red Wings, he is now helping general manager Yzerman build the next championship team.
During his 34 years with the Red Wings, Andersson has become an instrumental piece in the organizational puzzle. His recommendations and contributions have made an indelible imprint within the team’s history. To think that this could only be the mid point is yet another reason for Red Wing nation to be hopeful. It might also make Andersson a future consideration for the builder category within the Hockey of Hall of Fame — if he isn’t already.
With regards to development, they have assembled quite a nice roster of former Redwings players and one MSU alum to help develop their players starting with Kronwall in Sweden who was singled out by many of their European prospects many of whom have graduated to the Redwings for helping guide and nurture their development and Shawn Horcoff (Redwings Asst. GM) and Dan Cleary in North America who is the Assistant Director of Player of Development for the Redwings. Horcoff as GM in Grand Rapids is directly responsible for helping their minor league affiliate Griffins succeed while nurturing the Redwings prospects there.
“It takes the whole army to win the war,” McLellan said. “And I don’t know if that’s a good analogy in today’s world, but it takes everybody. So our scouting staff, our development staff — to see the kids come in now and play is really important, it’s rewarding for everybody in the organization, including the fans. Forward-thinking with the type of players that I hear are coming, if they maintain their path, their development path, there’s going to be more of them arriving, and hopefully they can do what this group of young men (Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Johansson, and Soderblom) have done.”
Hakan Anderson is one of the most highly respected scouts in the NHL and was tasked by former GM Holland to find quality players mostly outside the first round while Detroit reserved the early rounds for their North American scouts. He was only 24 y.o. when Detroit hired him to be their chief European scout back in 1989.
Here is what the young Hakan had to say back then:
"For the first two or three years, Kenny was really good, he helped me along. We had a lot of conversations. There was a lot more draft picks back then. There was 12 rounds or something. So you were looking for more players. One of the things that we talked about was maybe taking a flier on some of the European players in the later rounds because he wasn't always happy with the late-round names that came from North America."
Some of Andersson's late round European "flier picks" turned out to have long and distinguished Red Wings careers. Tomas Holmstrom (257th overall,1994), Pavel Datsyuk (171st overall, 1998), Henrik Zetterberg (210th overall, 1999) and Jonathan Ericsson (291st overall, 2002).
He also was responsible for scouting other key pieces for the Redwings during Holland's tenure as GM including Niklas Kronwall, Jiri Hudler, Valteri Filippula, Johan Franzen, Gustav Nyquist, and Tomas Tatar. Of the above players only one was taken in the first round Kronwall who became a workhorse for Detroit on defence and is currently responsible for helping develop the Redwings prospects in Europe. An amazing feature about the above list of players is the fact that only one player was taken in the first round.
An amazing feature about this list is the fact that only one player was taken in the first round. While the caliber of player on this list varies, they all played more than 500 NHL games. Most importantly, this continuous draft thievery took place as the Red Wings were collecting four Stanley Cups. This meant the team was usually not “flush” with draft picks after using them to bolster the team accordingly.
For example, the Red Wings’ first selection was not until the fourth round of the 1999 NHL Entry Draft! This, of course, was a result of the back-to-back Red Wing cup victories in 1997 and 1998. Despite their lack of selections, the team was able to “steal” Henrik Zetterberg in the seventh round. In retrospect, the native of Njurunda (Sweden) should have been a top-10 pick in 1999.
Similarly, the Red Wings were not scheduled to make their first selection in 2004 until the third round when they took “the Swedish Mule” — Johan Franzen. In this case, the lack of early picks was the result of a third Stanley Cup in 2002, and last of the Steven Yzerman era.
One of the more memorable selections in Red Wings history took place in Buffalo, New York, during the 1998 NHL Draft. Detroit did have a first-round selection that year and took current Associate Director of Player Personnel, Jiri Fischer. However, it was the team’s sixth-round selection that most Detroit fans now distinctly recall. Of course, the team selected a young Russian player named Pavel Datsyuk with the 171st-overall pick that year. Andersson’s efforts in selecting the Russian superstar are now well documented.
In effect, Detroit kept “stocking the cupboards” — even when they were lacking premium draft picks. This obviously had a big impact on the Red Wings’ 25-straight playoff appearances from 1990 through 2016. It was also a big reason why the team was able to capture the 2008 Stanley Cup without longtime captain Yzerman. All of these organizational feats were in part due to the expertise and contributions of the now famous Håkan Andersson.
In effect, Detroit kept “stocking the cupboards” — even when they were lacking premium draft picks. This obviously had a big impact on the Red Wings’ 25-straight playoff appearances from 1990 through 2016. It was also a big reason why the team was able to capture the 2008 Stanley Cup without longtime captain Yzerman. All of these organizational feats were in part due to the expertise and contributions of the now famous Håkan Andersson.
Dallas Stars general manager Jim Nill worked with Andersson in Detroit's front office from 1994 until April 2013. Among Nill's responsibilities with the Red Wings was Director of Amateur Scouting, which included running the NHL Entry Draft.
Nill saw something in Andersson's ability to hone in on a players skill set which, if developed, could translate well into the NHL.
"A real passion for the game. He had a good feel," Nill said to describe Andersson as a scout. "There are certain attributes when you watch for scouting. Some people like size, some like skating. Hakan loved hockey sense. He loves guys that have good skills and good hockey sense. But he had a good way of projecting.
"The toughest part with scouting is we can watch Connor McDavid when he's 18 and say he's going to be a star, it's finding the Henrik Zetterberg's, the Pavel Datsyuk's, when they're underdeveloped, they're 18 years old, they can't skate good enough, but you got a feeling about them that that (skating) can get better, that's where he was good. He had a great way of projecting who he thought had a chance of playing because their weaknesses, he thought they could become strengths down the road. And he loved the hockey sense."
While former GM Holland relied on Anderson primarily to find players in the later drafts, current Redwings GM Yzerman and Director of Scouting Kris Draper who both respected and recognized Hakan's scouting abilities when they were still players with Detroit relied on him to help make decisions on the earlier rounds right from the start of their first draft in Detroit including first round picks Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond, Simon Edvinsson and Marco Kasper as well as later round picks Albert Johansson and 6'8" monster Elmer Soderblom(159th overall) all of whom are now vital pieces of Detroit's current resurgence not to mention exciting late round draft pick Russian Dmitri Buchelnikov who is excelling in the KHL as well as a player the Redwings decided to trade for this year Finn Jesse Kiiskinen who excelled for Finland in the recent World Junior Hockey Championships.
When Draper began overseeing the Red Wings' draft in 2020, he wanted to expand Andersson's duties to include three trips per year to North America because he wanted Andersson to see top-end North American talent. Andersson was all for it because it all comes down to building the Red Wings into an elite team competing for Stanley Cups.
"Sometimes I go in some kind of work mode where I just (feel), 'I'm hired to find players, I must get to work and find players. I want to win. I want the Red Wings to win. I don't care really about the passport,'" Andersson said.
Amongst the scouting community, the Stockholm native has reached near folklore status. It is rare for an individual scout to be recognized for his/her accomplishments before they reach the top echelon of the NHL executive ranks but not so for Hakan.
It is exciting to think that at 59, Andersson is basically still in his talent identification prime. Already a winner of four Cups with the Red Wings, he is now helping general manager Yzerman build the next championship team.
During his 34 years with the Red Wings, Andersson has become an instrumental piece in the organizational puzzle. His recommendations and contributions have made an indelible imprint within the team’s history. To think that this could only be the mid point is yet another reason for Red Wing nation to be hopeful. It might also make Andersson a future consideration for the builder category within the Hockey of Hall of Fame — if he isn’t already.
With regards to development, they have assembled quite a nice roster of former Redwings players and one MSU alum to help develop their players starting with Kronwall in Sweden who was singled out by many of their European prospects many of whom have graduated to the Redwings for helping guide and nurture their development and Shawn Horcoff (Redwings Asst. GM) and Dan Cleary in North America who is the Assistant Director of Player of Development for the Redwings. Horcoff as GM in Grand Rapids is directly responsible for helping their minor league affiliate Griffins succeed while nurturing the Redwings prospects there.
“It takes the whole army to win the war,” McLellan said. “And I don’t know if that’s a good analogy in today’s world, but it takes everybody. So our scouting staff, our development staff — to see the kids come in now and play is really important, it’s rewarding for everybody in the organization, including the fans. Forward-thinking with the type of players that I hear are coming, if they maintain their path, their development path, there’s going to be more of them arriving, and hopefully they can do what this group of young men (Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Johansson, and Soderblom) have done.”
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FissionFire
Registered User
Yeah that’s my fear as well. I hope we are wrong because it’s far more fun having rivals be great teams. Would be fun to see the Wings and Habs become the new Wings/Avs in terms on rivalry and intensity.
I think the real key to Montreal’s rebuild success will be how they get a 1D. Reinbacher was the hope but it feels like a long shot now. Guhle is ok but he’s not a 1D for a team with Cup aspirations. Montreal will probably need to trade or one of past a ton for a free agent unless they get very lucky and hit a homerun with a pick later in the draft like a Duncan Keith. That’s the main reason I can’t put Montreal’s rebuild clearly ahead of Detroit. You win with solid defense in the playoffs. Detroit has a 1D and potentially a second 1D already whereas Montreal has a couple 2/3D guys and is praying a kid blossoms into a 1D soon.
It may sound crazy but if they could flip Demidov for a legitimate young 1D like a Dahlin, Seider, Sanderson, etc or even a Hughes or Werenski they should do it. They will be a better team in the long run. It’s far easier to find and sign guys to score goals than it is to find guys to be a good 1D.
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