Habs vs Wings

[NikolaTesla]

lol you're doubling down on this but for like the 10th time, so funny.

I NEVER said the opposite of what you just said. I know the Habs were trying to compete, I live here.

Oh and even if I think they were not purely rebuilding, there was still Bergevin's "PLAN QUINQUENNAL" hahaha



Only reason the Habs made the playoffs is due to the global Covid pandemic, you know that, right? In 2020, they finished 24th in the standings (there was still 31 teams)



lol WTF does the average AGE and DRAFT POSITION have to do in this conversation? I mean, how many times do you need to be told? You are OFF TOPIC



ok but... what does other posters narrative have to do with what I am saying? Anyone who can read can understand that I don't necessarily have the exact same narrative/opinion...

And who are you to decide where a conversation can SHIFT or not? lol!

I'm not really sure what is going on here, it is INSANITY

Oh im the one off topic because YOU chose to deflect the topic to wether the habs should have started to rebuild sooner? The whole discussion was about the habs supposedly started their rebuilds sooner than they did. Sorry if i should have quoted the other guys instead of you. Im really not interested in the topic you brought because i already agree with it. But I do disagree with you saying they started to accumulate assets before their rebuild though. The only assets they "accumulated" are suzuki, caufield and guhle, whom they picked in the range 10-20, ranks that bubble teams typically picks at. Are bubble teams considered rebuilding teams?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Of course it didn't end, it had had not started to begin with.

Started around same time as the wings

 

[NikolaTesla]

Hmmm same amount of time as your team

Are you trying to convince yourself?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Are you trying to convince yourself?

Don’t need to, I already know it, just seems like you’re being a bit obtuse about it when they picked third overall,
Not to mention all the other points you got wrong that were brought up from other posters.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Don’t need to, I already know it, just seems like you’re being obtuse about it when they picked third overall,

A slump season automatically makes a team a rebuilding one? Thats your logic?

And tell me which important asset, that "skyrocketed their rebuild speed", whom they got with that pick?

 

[Egresch]

Both teams have similar goalies prospects. Dobeš, Fowler vs. Cossa, Augustine.
Detroit is slightly better with D, but forward groups are not really close. Larkin will be 29 in the summer. By the time all those prospects make impact in NHL, he will start declining. There is a huge gap behind Raymond, quality and quantity. On the other hand, Habs play young top6 already in NHL, Laine being the oldest at 26. Demidov, Hage, Beck, Kapanen, if you include Heineman who is already in NHL, you have almost full 4 lines of great talent.

 

[FissionFire]

I have been praising the Habs rebuild since last year in the "around the NHL" thread on the Sens board (while blasting Dorion's work at the same time, because it can't be said enough how bad he was as a GM) and some posters didn't like it but this thread is a quick reminder as to why lol



Even if there was a "generational" label... as of now Raymond is still quite better than Bedard. People would still pick Bedard for multiple reasons but it's not as if becoming better than Raymond was going to be a walk in the park. I was high on Raymond at the draft and was really hoping the Sens would get away from the draft with both him and Stutzle. I love Sanderson but damn (and who knows what would have happened with Chychrun in Ottawa if there was no Sanderson on LD?)

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Raymond
Giroux- Norris - Batherson
Greig - Pinto - Perron

Oh no doubt I agree Demidov has the potential to be the far better player and I totally understand why teams/people would prefer him. My post was basically in response to the Habs fan claiming that Raymond was so inferior to Demidov that he should be “carrying his jock”

 

[FissionFire]

Both teams have similar goalies prospects. Dobeš, Fowler vs. Cossa, Augustine.
Detroit is slightly better with D, but forward groups are not really close. Larkin will be 29 in the summer. By the time all those prospects make impact in NHL, he will start declining. There is a huge gap behind Raymond, quality and quantity. On the other hand, Habs play young top6 already in NHL, Laine being the oldest at 26. Demidov, Hage, Beck, Kapanen, if you include Heineman who is already in NHL, you have almost full 4 lines of great talent.

I agree that Montreal has the clearly better forwards but I think you are sipping the hometown Kool-Aid if you feel Montreals defense is only slightly worse than Detroit. Seider is clearly better than anyone Montreal has in the system and Edvinsson may be as well. I think Montreal would be thrilled if Reinbacher can at least match that level and beyond that there is nobody in their system who I feel has high end top pair potential. Hutson will get points but I don’t see him as a top tier D outside of scoring. Also think you are severely overrating Dobes. Fowler, Cossa, and Augustine are a toss-up and on the same tier but Dobes is very clearly a very big step down from them.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Both teams have similar goalies prospects. Dobeš, Fowler vs. Cossa, Augustine.
Detroit is slightly better with D, but forward groups are not really close. Larkin will be 29 in the summer. By the time all those prospects make impact in NHL, he will start declining. There is a huge gap behind Raymond, quality and quantity. On the other hand, Habs play young top6 already in NHL, Laine being the oldest at 26. Demidov, Hage, Beck, Kapanen, if you include Heineman who is already in NHL, you have almost full 4 lines of great talent.

Weird to be penciling in Hage, Beck, Kapanen and Heineman as the better core offensively and ignoring Danielson, Kasper, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygard, Plante, etc

 

[Egresch]

I agree that Montreal has the clearly better forwards but I think you are sipping the hometown Kool-Aid if you feel Montreals defense is only slightly worse than Detroit. Seider is clearly better than anyone Montreal has in the system and Edvinsson may be as well. I think Montreal would be thrilled if Reinbacher can at least match that level and beyond that there is nobody in their system who I feel has high end top pair potential. Hutson will get points but I don’t see him as a top tier D outside of scoring. Also think you are severely overrating Dobes. Fowler, Cossa, and Augustine are a toss-up and on the same tier but Dobes is very clearly a very big step down from them.

You do realize that Dobeš is the only one of them playing in NHL, right? How can he be a very big step down, isnt it in fact the opposite? He has very similar stats than Cossa in AHL and is just one year older.
In defense, MTL has Guhle, Xhekaj already established in the NHL plus Hutson showing elite offensive D skills. Add Reinbacher and that is a sollid base. I still prefer Seider- Edvinsson and pipeline of ASP, Wallinder, Buium.

 

[Egresch]

Weird to be penciling in Hage, Beck, Kapanen and Heineman as the better core offensively and ignoring Danielson, Kasper, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygard, Plante, etc

I never said they are the core, I said they are complementary to existing core which is already impactful in the NHL.
Caufield- Suzuki- Slafkovsky
Laine- Dach- Newhook
Demidov will replace Newhook in top 6 which would leave us with Newhook, Beck, Hage, Kapanen, Heineman, Roy for our bottom 6.
Who does Detroit really have? Raymond, Kasper in NHL. Would you count Berggren, Rasmussen, Soderblom or Veleno, none of them has top 6 potential? You can include Larkin, DeBrincat but they are 3 years older and worse than Caufield-Suzuki duo. Then you need to heavily rely on Danielson, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygard, Plante to quickly become top 6 players in NHL which is a wishful dreaming.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Of course it didn't end, it had not started to begin with.

It doesn't work that way. A team that sucks for a few years and makes rebuilding moves can't just decide to say "oh, that wasn't a rebuild btw.". Montreal wouldn't be where they are today without those bad years around 2018-2020, whether you call it a rebuild or not is irrelevant; they were bad, they are helped by it now.

You do realize that Dobeš is the only one of them playing in NHL, right? How can he be a very big step down, isnt it in fact the opposite? He has very similar stats than Cossa in AHL and is just one year older.

.906 (Dobes at 22) and .920 (Cossa at 22) is a pretty big difference.

Goalies are super weird though so nothing shocks me. Dobes could turn out better. I would hesitate to overreact to small sample sizes though. For now, Cossa remains the higher pedigree goalie by a wide margin.

Caufield- Suzuki- Slafkovsky
Laine- Dach- Newhook
Demidov will replace Newhook in top 6

Dach is on pace for 31 points. Slafkovsky still a 40-50 point player for now. Laine is pretty useless at ES and it's still super debatable what he can be long term.

I don't think that top 6 is as impressive as you make it out to be. Personally I also question the viability of building around Caufield, Suzuki and Hutson. That's not a lot of size.

Newhook, Beck, Hage, Kapanen, Heineman, Roy for our bottom 6.

That.. isn't impressive.

Who does Detroit really have? Raymond, Kasper in NHL. Would you count Berggren, Rasmussen, Soderblom or Veleno, none of them has top 6 potential? You can include Larkin, DeBrincat but they are 3 years older and worse than Caufield-Suzuki duo. Then you need to heavily rely on Danielson, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygard, Plante to quickly become top 6 players in NHL which is a wishful dreaming.

Debrincat is not even 6 months older than Laine who you seem to be calling "young".

I don't think it's unfair to say Detroit needs 1 or 2 more top 6 players to materialize fairly quickly. But it can also be done via trade or UFA.

 

[Egresch]

.906 (Dobes at 22) and .920 (Cossa at 22) is a pretty big difference.

Goalies are super weird though so nothing shocks me. Dobes could turn out better. I would hesitate to overreact to small sample sizes though. For now, Cossa remains the higher pedigree goalie by a wide margin.


Dach is on pace for 31 points. Slafkovsky still a 40-50 point player for now. Laine is pretty useless at ES and it's still super debatable what he can be long term.

I don't think that top 6 is as impressive as you make it out to be. Personally I also question the viability of building around Caufield, Suzuki and Hutson. That's not a lot of size.


That.. isn't impressive.


Debrincat is not even 6 months older than Laine who you seem to be calling "young".

I don't think it's unfair to say Detroit needs 1 or 2 more top 6 players to materialize fairly quickly. But it can also be done via trade or UFA.

Laval was very bad team 1st half last season, Grand Rapids are one of top in the league now. Pedigree does not really matter at 22 especially with goalies. Nobody really cares that Cossa was drafted 15th OA, Helleybuck was 5th round pick and he is the best. The gap is definitely not very big.

Slafkovsky is aiming for his 2nd consecutive 50 pts season in his D+3. That is same production as Raymond and Slaf is doing so much more than just points.
Dach missed whole last year with knee injury, he is slowly coming back, but injuries are main issue with him and Laine. He has potential to be 2nd line center.
You can compare DeBrincat to Laine, but than you are missing Caufield piece.
You can address your needs via trade or UFA, so can Habs, but that was not the question, right?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Feel like we're gonna be hearing "Injuries are holding Dach back" until he's 35...

 

[BergevinBurner]

And Montreal drafting top 3 in 2018 and trading for Suzuki in 2019 definitely weren't rebuilding.

Terrible take lmao, just because a team has an awful year doesn't mean they were rebuilding. That's like saying the Predators were rebuilding this season.

2018 was a tire fire of a year in which management had no intention to "rebuild" in any capacity. From 2016-17 to now they finished: 7th, 28th, 14th, 24th, 18th, 32nd, 28th, 28th. There was very clearly a point where we were trying to retool/force a competitive team and a point where management finally committed to a rebuild.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Slafkovsky is aiming for his 2nd consecutive 50 pts season in his D+3. That is same production as Raymond and Slaf is doing so much more than just points.

And people were pretty down on Raymond after he had a sophomore slump. For now, Slafkovsky isn't trending all that great. He can change that if he breaks out - but until it happens why should we view him as this amazing top 6 piece you want to view him as?

Dach missed whole last year with knee injury, he is slowly coming back, but injuries are main issue with him and Laine. He has potential to be 2nd line center.

And you call hope for Danielson "wishful thinking".

You can compare DeBrincat to Laine, but than you are missing Caufield piece.

Easiest way to look at it is something like this.

Larkin v. Suzuki
Raymond v. Caufield
Kasper v. Slafkovsky
Debrincat v. Laine
Danielson v. Dach/Hage
MBN/Buchelnikov v. Demidov

Terrible take lmao, just because a team has an awful year doesn't mean they were rebuilding. That's like saying the Predators were rebuilding this season.

If the Preds start selling assets, draft top 5, and in 2-3 years rebuild around that top 5 pick and assets acquired this year - does that mean they started their rebuild from nothing in 2026 because that's when they send out a memo to season ticket holders?

Rebuilding is rebuilding, whether or not you intended to end up in one. A lot of you are confusing intentional tanking/burning it all to the ground with rebuilding - the two are often linked but they are not one and the same.

 

[cjeagle]

Toss-up for me. I love the prospect depth for both teams. If there is a slight nod it's that the core for Detroit is slightly more defined. But the raw depth at all positions for Montreal is hard to ignore.

I'd have to give this another 2-3 years to shake out.

Detroit has some very good prospects at all positions including defence, goaltender, wings and center. Montreal by comparison don't have similar depth.

 

[cjeagle]

He probably will stop doing it yes but pro scouting seems to have been pretty poor for a while for you guys...

Both teams in my opinion need(ed) another lottery pick to solidify their rebuilds. They will have to be crafty to get another top line forward if they don't

Detroit's first round picks under Yzerman usually outperform the players drafted ahead of them so even though they always moved down positions in the lottery they ended up getting better players in the end for the most part.

 

[cjeagle]

I never said they are the core, I said they are complementary to existing core which is already impactful in the NHL.
Caufield- Suzuki- Slafkovsky
Laine- Dach- Newhook
Demidov will replace Newhook in top 6 which would leave us with Newhook, Beck, Hage, Kapanen, Heineman, Roy for our bottom 6.
Who does Detroit really have? Raymond, Kasper in NHL. Would you count Berggren, Rasmussen, Soderblom or Veleno, none of them has top 6 potential? You can include Larkin, DeBrincat but they are 3 years older and worse than Caufield-Suzuki duo. Then you need to heavily rely on Danielson, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygard, Plante to quickly become top 6 players in NHL which is a wishful dreaming.

Did you know that 4th line plug Marco Kasper currently has more goals this year than Slafkovsky, Gauthier and Shane Wright?

 

[Egresch]

Easiest way to look at it is something like this.

Larkin v. Suzuki
Raymond v. Caufield
Kasper v. Slafkovsky
Debrincat v. Laine
Danielson v. Dach/Hage
MBN/Buchelnikov v. Demidov

Then it is even clearer.

Larkin = Suzuki they are very close, I am not wasting my time debating this
Raymond > Caufield
Kasper << Slafkovsky
DeBrincat = Laine
Danielson < Dach/Hage
MBN/Buchelnikov << Demidov

And people were pretty down on Raymond after he had a sophomore slump. For now, Slafkovsky isn't trending all that great. He can change that if he breaks out - but until it happens why should we view him as this amazing top 6 piece you want to view him as?

Caufield - Suzuki- Slafkovsky one of top lines in whole NHL 5v5. With 24 goals for they are 5th in the league and they only played 34 games together. Slafkovsky was struggling out of that line, but with that duo he is doing very well. Inconsistent, but he can be a dominant force already at 20.

 

[Egresch]

Did you know that 4th line plug Marco Kasper currently has more goals this year than Slafkovsky, Gauthier and Shane Wright?

Where did I say 4th line plug? I literally project him as top6 player.
He has one more goal than Slafkovsky. What about -12 assists, -34 hits and -10 blocked shots?

 

[RedHawkDown]

Then it is even clearer.

Larkin = Suzuki they are very close, I am not wasting my time debating this
Raymond > Caufield
Kasper << Slafkovsky
DeBrincat = Laine
Danielson < Dach/Hage
MBN/Buchelnikov << Demidov


Caufield - Suzuki- Slafkovsky one of top lines in whole NHL 5v5. With 24 goals for they are 5th in the league and they only played 34 games together. Slafkovsky was struggling out of that line, but with that duo he is doing very well. Inconsistent, but he can be a dominant force already at 20.

I'll revise this with a reverse homer take, since you did a MTL homer take.

Larkin = Suzuki.
Raymond >>> Caufield
Kasper < Slafkovsky
DeBrincat > Laine
Danielson = Hage and Danielson >> Dach
Buchelnikov < Demidov ; yes 2 years older but outproducing. Yes MBN <<< Demidov.

 

[SallyBalls]

Detroit 8 years into a failed 5 year plan with nothing coming through the pipeline.

Is it a development issue or a broader organisational problem? Maybe its both.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Detroit 8 years into a failed 5 year plan with nothing coming through the pipeline.

Is it a development issue or a broader organisational problem? Maybe its both.

It’s best to make trolling subtle so people actually engage with you.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Detroit 8 years into a failed 5 year plan with nothing coming through the pipeline.

Is it a development issue or a broader organisational problem? Maybe its both.

Are you that bad evaluating the wings prospects or just being disengenious, or trolling, it’s one of the 3.
Both teams rebuilding about the same length of time.