Habs vs Wings

[Bigtrout]

I think everyone understands that, the point is that the team was performing like a rebuilding team all these, without actually doing it. For me, I was never worried about the Habs as long as Trevor Timmins was in charge. I was not happy when he got fired.

Exept they didn't even draft in the top 10 during 2018/2019-2020/2021 seasons and won 4 playoffs rounds so to say they perfomed like a rebuilding team is simply not true. I don't really see the point of beating that drum either besides trying to justify the Habs rebuild's looking on pace to be significaly shorter than both Ott and Det.

Habs with a healthy Price and Weber playing were nowhere near rebuilding territory.

 

[Crunchy]

Exept they didn't even draft in the top 10 during 2018-2020 and won 4 playoffs rounds so to say they perfomed like a rebuilding team is simply not true. I don't really see the point of beating that drum either besides trying to justify the Habs rebuild's looking on pace to be significaly shorter than both Ott and Det.

Habs with a healthy Price and Weber playing were nowhere near rebuilding territory.

And we've come full circle as these responses were triggered by:

Wings started their rebuild before us and we're already ahead

Those who thinks that Detroit has either the better pieces or worse, the better team, need to go touch grass

And yes they did perform like a rebuilding team in the regular season in that the last time Montreal finished among the top 16 teams, the traditional playoff bar, was in 2017 (and oh yeah they drafted top 10 2016 and 2018).

 

[Bigtrout]

And we've come full circle as these responses were triggered by:


And yes they did perform like a rebuilding team in the regular season in that the last time Montreal finished among the top 16 teams, the traditional playoff bar, was in 2017 (and oh yeah they drafted top 10 2016 and 2018).

And first in the atlantic in 2017, it's as simple as when Price was healthy the team was winning games. I also find that downright descrediting their 2019 season silly because of the unique division system, they still had to beat 3 good teams to get their asses handed to then in the scf.

Whether we look at 2016/2017-2020/2021 or 2018/2019-2020/2021 it's the same thing, mid team with very mixed result but very much not ''rebuilding''

but like you said we've come full circle lol

 

[Crunchy]

And first in the atlantic in 2017, it's as simple as when Price was healthy the team was winning games. I also find that downright descrediting their 2019 season silly because of the unique division system, they still had to beat 3 good teams to get their asses handed to then in the scf.

Whether we look at 2016-2020 or 2018-2020 it's the same thing, mid team with very mixed result but very much not ''rebuilding''

but like you said we've come full circle lol

Indeed we have, haha. I've already stated I have no qualms with how you want to define rebuilding and understand your perspective. The overall point here is that Detroit started at 0 and Montreal just didn't because they had years of mediocrity under their belt. I mean they even traded their 29 year old Captain for a 19 yr old prospect and a pick in 2018.

Here's some more perspective: Since 2017 the best regular season between the two teams was the 2023-2024 Detroit Red Wings at 55.5%. Montreal's best checks in at 52.6%.

And I'm not trying to discredit the Habs run to the SCF behind an unconscious Carey Price. That was miraculous and hilarious to watch TML cry. Hold on to that forever.

 

[Bigtrout]

Indeed we have, haha. I've already stated I have no qualms with how you want to define rebuilding and understand your perspective. The overall point here is that Detroit started at 0 and Montreal just didn't because they had years of mediocrity under their belt. I mean they even traded their 29 year old Captain for a 19 yr old prospect in 2018.

Here's some more perspective: Since 2017 the best regular season between the two teams was the 2023-2024 Detroit Red Wings at 55.5%. Montreal's best checks in at 52.6%.

And I'm not trying to discredit the Habs run to the SCF behind an unconscious Carey Price. That was miraculous and hilarious to watch TML cry. Hold on to that forever.

Definely agree that Montreal started with way more assets than Detroit, and it kickstarted the rebuild as a result, although Detroit also had some years of mediocrity as 1st round fodder before rebuilding after they joined the east.

Different situations but hopefully both teams can get it going and eventually meet in the playoffs, I'd absolutely love to see that rivalry spark.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Can't believe Wings fans think their team is in a good spot lol. I honestly see them like a Calgary where they top out as a bubble-mid team. Not division winning caliber, and certainly not contenders.

They rushed their rebuild in 2022 when Stevie Y brought in UFA bums.

Keep hearing about how foolish we were for not tanking in 2021 and 2022 and then I look at the top five in those two drafts.

... Not exactly sure what we were missing out on.

 

[Bouboumaster]

I don't know what these people don't understand. Montreal was just a bad team that was trading vets to gain picks and prospects in order to be better at a future date. A rebuild take someone to say it's a rebuild. Actions don't matter only words.

TS Quint: "I don't follow the Habs, never had, just looking results, don't understand that Molson didn't want to be the one who send the Habs for their first time ever into rebuild as it was seen as a dark stain on it's History, don't get the pressures of the media, and the implications, I wasn't there, watching Bergevin trying to put out teams out there, I don't get that most of the failed Season was due to the fact that Price was injured. Habs was into rebuild mode because I believe so, it fit my narrative and therefore, it must be the truth."

No Man, they didn't entered into rebuild mode until the team f***ing collapsed in 2021-2022.
I'm sorry that you don't know shit about it, but you don't know shit about it.

 

[Xspyrit]

Exept they didn't even draft in the top 10 during 2018-2020 and won 4 playoffs rounds so to say they perfomed like a rebuilding team is simply not true. I don't really see the point of beating that drum either besides trying to justify the Habs rebuild's looking on pace to be significaly shorter than both Ott and Det.

They did well (average) in 2018-19 but the outlook is this :

2017–18 : 28th in P% (4th worst team)
2018–19 : 14th in P%
2019–20 : 24th in P% (8th worst team)
2020–21 : 18th in P%

21st overall for these 4 seasons

For Ottawa, which was a rebuilding team :

2020-21 : 23rd in P%
2021-22 : 26th in P%
2022-23 : 21st in P%
2023-24 : 26th in P%

24th overall for these 4 seasons

So you understand that outside of that average season, it looks pretty similar to Ottawa during their rebuild and overall just 3 spots above in the standings with one team less (31 teams)

So the point people are making. Habs have been a well below average team since 2017-18, that they delayed their needed rebuild to 2021 or not...

Oh and do you remember Bergevin's "plan quinquennal"? I do

Habs with a healthy Price and Weber playing were nowhere near rebuilding territory.

Which didn't happen very often. Don't worry, as a Sens fan, I know what can be the impact of injuries, which was probably the biggest factor why the team fell drastically in the standings after their 2017 playoffs run. That's a reality every team has to face.

 

[Bouboumaster]

And we've come full circle as these responses were triggered by:


And yes they did perform like a rebuilding team in the regular season in that the last time Montreal finished among the top 16 teams, the traditional playoff bar, was in 2017 (and oh yeah they drafted top 10 2016 and 2018).

Price was f***ed up in 2016, you absolute goofball. It was the year after he went God Mode, and before he got hurt, he was putting stellars numbers
In 2017-2018, it was a ass year by a mediocre team, but it's still wasn't a rebuild year

 

[qc14]

"Lane Hutson would go 1oa in a redraft" son or "the Yzerplan isn't trying to compete until 2027 or 2028" daughter?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Exept they didn't even draft in the top 10 during 2018-2020

They actually drafted top 3 in 2018.
Do habs fans not even follow their own team, weird non habs fans know more.

 

[Bigtrout]

They actually drafted top 3 in 2018.
Do habs fans not even follow their own team, weird non habs fans know more.

2017-2018 season
I'm talking about 2018-2019 but keep being a smart ass.

 

[Golden_Jet]

2017-2018 season
I'm talking about 2018-2019 but keep being a smart ass.

Not being a smart ass, sounds like you are though, just bad at clarifying what you mean obviously. Drafts have never ever been listed as 2018/19, they are 2018 draft, 2019 draft etc, nothing has changed over the years, on how drafts are listed.

You’re just ticked you got proven wrong again. At least you’re good , at moving goalposts, and poor at stats.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

2017-2018 season
I'm talking about 2018-2019 but keep being a smart ass.

When you say "They didn't draft Top 10 2018 - 2020" even though they quite literally drafted third overall in 2018, that's on you.

Not sure how you would think that's his fault. 2018 - 2020 would indicate you meant draft years, not seasons. Otherwise you would say 2018/19 through 2020/21.

 

[Bigtrout]

Not being in a smart ass, sounds like you are though,
You’re just ticked you got proven wrong again. At least you’re good at that., and good at moving goalposts, and poor at stats.

Proven wrong? You're just here trying to nitpick and can't even get it right but grats on derailing the discussion without adding anything. Real quality content from you.

When you say "They didn't draft Top 10 2018 - 2020" even though they quite literally drafted third overall in 2018, that's on you.

Not sure how you would think that's his fault. 2018 - 2020 would indicate you meant draft years, not seasons. Otherwise you would say 2018/19 through 2020/21.

Semantics, I was just talking about 2018-2019 to 2020-2021 but sure it wasn't that clear. I'm just trying to have a rational discussion but when a known habs hater start with saying ''Do habs fans not even follow their own team, weird non habs fans know more.'' you know what he's here for.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Proven wrong? You're just here trying to nitpick and can't even get it right but grats on derailing the discussion without adding anything. Real quality content from you.


Semantics, I was just talking about 2018-2019 to 2020-2021 but sure it wasn't that clear. I'm just trying to have a rational discussion but when a known habs hater start with saying ''Do habs fans not even follow their own team, weird non habs fans know more.'' you know what he's here for.

It's not semantics. You literally said they didn't draft Top 10 in 2018 when they did lol.

That's not semantics. You were just wrong. It happens to all of us. You just make yourself look like a clown by claiming it's semantics rather than owning up to an honest f*** up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

When you say "They didn't draft Top 10 2018 - 2020" even though they quite literally drafted third overall in 2018, that's on you.

Not sure how you would think that's his fault. 2018 - 2020 would indicate you meant draft years, not seasons. Otherwise you would say 2018/19 through 2020/21.

It’s obvious to everyone else.

 

[Bigtrout]

It's not semantics. You literally said they didn't draft Top 10 in 2018 when they did lol.

That's not semantics. You were just wrong. It happens to all of us. You just make yourself look like a clown by claiming it's semantics rather than owning up to an honest f*** up.

is the 2018 nhl season 2017-2018 or 2018-2019 to you?

Doesn't actually matter anywai. I'll edit my post to be more clear

 

[Golden_Jet]

is the 2018 nhl season 2017-2018 or 2018-2019 to you?

Doesn't actually matter anywai. I'll edit my post to be more clear

Exept they didn't even draft in the top 10 during 2018-2020

 

[Bigtrout]

ok bad choice of words from me

Please let's get over it now

What I meant was

Exept they didn't even draft in the top 10 during 2018/2019-2020/2021 seasons

 

[TS Quint]

TS Quint: "I don't follow the Habs, never had, just looking results, don't understand that Molson didn't want to be the one who send the Habs for their first time ever into rebuild as it was seen as a dark stain on it's History, don't get the pressures of the media, and the implications, I wasn't there, watching Bergevin trying to put out teams out there, I don't get that most of the failed Season was due to the fact that Price was injured. Habs was into rebuild mode because I believe so, it fit my narrative and therefore, it must be the truth."

No Man, they didn't entered into rebuild mode until the team f***ing collapsed in 2021-2022.
I'm sorry that you don't know shit about it, but you don't know shit about it.

Don't get cranky with me, I'm on your side.

 

[Golden_Jet]

ok bad choice of words from me

agreed, along with the smart ass comment.

 

[Bigtrout]

They did well (average) in 2018-19 but the outlook is this :

2017–18 : 28th in P% (4th worst team)
2018–19 : 14th in P%
2019–20 : 24th in P% (8th worst team)
2020–21 : 18th in P%

21st overall for these 4 seasons

For Ottawa, which was a rebuilding team :

2020-21 : 23rd in P%
2021-22 : 26th in P%
2022-23 : 21st in P%
2023-24 : 26th in P%

24th overall for these 4 seasons

So you understand that outside of that average season, it looks pretty similar to Ottawa during their rebuild and overall just 3 spots above in the standings with one team less (31 teams)

So the point people are making. Habs have been a well below average team since 2017-18, that they delayed their needed rebuild to 2021 or not...

Oh and do you remember Bergevin's "plan quinquennal"? I do

They definely weren't a good team, they did tank in 2017-2018 with nothing to show for it but otherwise they were always buyer and trading assets to patch holes. I remember how shitty it was to be in no mans land until Price and Weber Ltired. And they would never have rebuilt otherwise.

 

[VeteranPresence]

I have it on good authority the Wings have two #1 goalie prospects and not one but THREE #1 defensemen prospects in the pipeline! Never mind they can't get a player from beyond the 1st round since Stevie took over to become an NHL regular, it's a guarantee!

 

[NikolaTesla]

You seem to struggle with facts. Raymond at 19 outscored Slafkovsky at 19. Raymond at 20 scored at about the same rate as Slafkovsky did as a 19 & 20 year old.
Next season, Slafkovsky needs to put up 70+ points to keep pace.


The odds are probably better than Suzuki/Caufield becoming regular 80pts players. That's the whole point. Extremely few players peak before their 23rd birthday so what I'm attempting to show with Demidov/Hutson comparisons is that you do understand how silly it is to say players at that age have peaked. It's just that you're unable to apply common sense on a Red Wings player.


But it is significant.

Suzuki at 21 (pace): 22 goals, 60 points
Raymond at 21: 31 goals, 73 points

Suzuki at 22: 21 goals, 61 points
Raymond at 22 (pace): 34 goals, 89 points

It doesnt matter the pace they are at. What matters is the pace they will be during their cup window.

Regardless of age, would you say that Raymond is significantly better than Suzuki?

I'd also look at clutch goals when the game is on the line. Raymond steps up in big moments. He has another gear when it matters. Todd McLellan compared Raymond to Zetterberg in that aspect. Zetterberg was the buzzer beater king; game in, game out most clutch player I ever witnessed.

That was an interesting comment by McLellan.

Red Wings Coach Sees Zetterberg in Raymond’s Game

Former Detroit captain was a mentor to fellow Swede

detroithockeynow.com

Suzuki is about the clutchest player you can get. Already 4 goals in overtime this year. Can play on the pk, hell Saint-Louis often cuts the bench and let him play on 2 different lines.