Habs vs Wings

[Bigtrout]

agreed, along with the smart ass comment.

That was 100% in response to:

Do habs fans not even follow their own team, weird non habs fans know more.

which was uncalled for, but anywai, enough bickering for me lol

I'll keep it civil, I just want to talk hockey.

 

[NikolaTesla]

I don't know what these people don't understand. Montreal was just a bad team that was trading vets to gain picks and prospects in order to be better at a future date. A rebuild take someone to say it's a rebuild. Actions don't matter only words.

Tell me which vets they traded for prospects and picks?

 

[Doom Bot]

Tell me which vets they traded for prospects and picks?

I could see someone saying Pacioretty for Suzuki was a rebuild move

 

[NikolaTesla]

That said, even if the word rebuild was only used in 2021, pretty much every season since 2017-18 was of a rebuilding team's quality, that is the point people are making.

Well the point is ridiculous. Yes the team sucked but no they didn't try to tank to get higher picks. Their best picks was Kotkaniemi who is a bust anyway. So yeah they had a headstart over detroit with Caufield, Suzuki and Guhle but guess what? None of those guys are top 10 picks.

 

[NikolaTesla]

I mean they even traded their 29 year old Captain for a 19 yr old prospect and a pick in 2018.

You realize that the main part going back to montreal in that trade was Tatar, not suzuki (whom bergevin didn't really want, he asked for another prospect whom i dont remember the name because he busted hard) nor the late rounds pick.

They actually drafted top 3 in 2018.
Do habs fans not even follow their own team, weird non habs fans know more.

Kotkaniemi? That sure as hell doesnt explain why Montreal's rebuild is much faster. Really doesn't help your argument.

 

[NikolaTesla]

I could see someone saying Pacioretty for Suzuki was a rebuild move

I could see it too because many posters here have no clue, but it wasn't. Tatar was the main piece coming back. Bergevin was still active on the free agent market in the years following that trade.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Kotkaniemi? That sure as hell doesnt explain why Montreal's rebuild is much faster. Really doesn't help your argument.

Reading comprehension, where did I say it made the rebuild faster, it was a correction to a poster.

But I’ll hang around while you post where I said it helps Montreal’s rebuild, and where that was the point of my argument. This should be good.

 

[HabsMD97]

This summer elite prospects had detroit with the 15th best prospect pool and the habs 3rd. Dailyfaceoff had the habs 2nd and Detroit 5th, Corey pronman had the habs 6th and the Wings 14th this summer, Scott wheeler is currently releasing his prospect pool rankings, will be interesting where he puts both teams considering from all the public scouts he has always been the highest on the wings. Currently, habs have the 2nd youngest team in the league and are already better than the wings....Anything can happen in the future, will be interesting to revisit this thread in 2 years.

 

[Doom Bot]

I could see it too because many posters here have no clue, but it wasn't. Tatar was the main piece coming back. Bergevin was still active on the free agent market in the years following that trade.

Well I would agree with it not being a rebuild trade because Pacioretty requested a trade from MTL and they basically had to trade him, but I personally wouldn't agree with Tatar being the main piece. He was pretty bad the year before the trade and if I remember correctly was healthy scratched after Vegas game up assets to add him. I remember being ecstatic about getting Suzuki. I don't doubt Bergevin wanted Glass over Suzuki but he did say this after the trade:

"One point that was very important for us was to get a young prospect, what we call an 'A' prospect," Bergevin said. "So that was a key that was very important to the organization and that's what we were able to get in Suzuki."

It's very obvious MTL did not attempt a rebuild in any way until Kent Hughes was hired. They did try a couple half ass retools with Bergevin due to his own failures and mismanagement.

 

[Dotter]

My point, which you can't grasp, is that im pretty sure that Raymond will peak at 90 pts. Of course its just an opinion. Suzuki is a nice 2 way centers who plays often on the pk and has been trending up every single year of his career. Saying that one is trending "significantly" better is just stupid. If he said "trending better" i'd be fine with it. It's the dumb use of the word "significant" that irks me, as if Raymond was in a higher class than Suzuki, which he isn't.

Also, the bolded part is far from a certainty.

Raymond is putting up 35% more points than Suzuki did at the same age. So if that trend continues that would mean Raymond will hit 115 points by the time he reaches Suzuki's age.

If I understand your argument against Crunchy correctly, you are saying Raymond cannot continue that pace.... only Suzuki can. (for reference 25 year old Suzuki is outperforming his 23 year old version by 30%)

Positions aside, I think Raymond is the better hockey player who will have the better career.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Reading comprehension, where did I say it made the rebuild faster, it was a correction to a poster.

But I’ll hang around while you post where I said it helps Montreal’s rebuild, and where that was the point of my argument. This should be good.

The whole argument was about Habs supposedly rebuilding earlier than they actually did. Glad you admit you cant follow a conversation though.

Well I would agree with it not being a rebuild trade because Pacioretty requested a trade from MTL and they basically had to trade him, but I personally wouldn't agree with Tatar being the main piece. He was pretty bad the year before the trade and if I remember correctly was healthy scratched after Vegas game up assets to add him. I remember being ecstatic about getting Suzuki. I don't doubt Bergevin wanted Glass over Suzuki but he did say this after the trade:

"One point that was very important for us was to get a young prospect, what we call an 'A' prospect," Bergevin said. "So that was a key that was very important to the organization and that's what we were able to get in Suzuki."

It's very obvious MTL did not attempt a rebuild in any way until Kent Hughes was hired. They did try a couple half ass retools with Bergevin due to his own failures and mismanagement.

Yeah Glass was the name i couldnt remember, thanks for that. We could argue suzuki was the main piece over tatar yeah but the point remains that it wasn't a trade to rebuild. As you said Pac asked for a trade.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Raymond is putting up 35% more points than Suzuki did at the same age. So if that trend continues that would mean Raymond will hit 115 points by the time he reaches Suzuki's age.

If I understand your argument against Crunchy correctly, you are saying Raymond cannot continue that pace.... only Suzuki can. (for reference 25 year old Suzuki is outperforming his 23 year old version by 30%)

Positions aside, I think Raymond is the better hockey player who will have the better career.

Lol ok raymonds will be a 115 pts player. We all know that every players progression is totally linear. Hell by age 35, Raymonds should be getting 200 points season.

 

[Crunchy]

I have it on good authority the Wings have two #1 goalie prospects and not one but THREE #1 defensemen prospects in the pipeline! Never mind they can't get a player from beyond the 1st round since Stevie took over to become an NHL regular, it's a guarantee!

Don't look now but Albert Johansson is playing 2nd pair (2019 #60 over) and Elmer Soderblom (2019 #159 over), who is 6' 8" and 250 lbs, called up. You should tune in.

 

[TS Quint]

I could see it too because many posters here have no clue, but it wasn't. Tatar was the main piece coming back. Bergevin was still active on the free agent market in the years following that trade.

Tatar was the main piece.....Tatar who had 6 points in 20 games with Vegas, 34 points all year long, who scored more than 46 points once in 5 years in the NHL at 27 years old. That Tatar had more value than the 13th overall pick from year previous who put 96 and 100 points in his last two OHL seasons and a 2nd. OK. Sure.

"One point that was very important for us was to get a young prospect, what we call an 'A' prospect," Bergevin said. "So that was a key that was very important to the organization and that's what we were able to get in Suzuki."

This is the GM who didn't want Suzuki?

This is the strangest made up story ever told.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Tatar was the main piece.....Tatar who had 6 points in 20 games with Vegas, 34 points all year long, who scored more than 46 points once in 5 years in the NHL at 27 years old. That Tatar had more value than the 13th overall pick from year previous who put 96 and 100 points in his last two OHL seasons and a 2nd. OK. Sure.

"One point that was very important for us was to get a young prospect, what we call an 'A' prospect," Bergevin said. "So that was a key that was very important to the organization and that's what we were able to get in Suzuki."

This is the GM who didn't want Suzuki?

This is the strangest made up story ever told.

He wanted Cody Glass its very well documented. Suzuki was the consolation prize. Google it. It turned out pretty well. But you're missing the whole point. That is the only trade that could be considered an asset liquidation and the only reason it happened is because Pac asked for a trade.

 

[TS Quint]

He wanted Cody Glass its very well documented. Suzuki was the consolation prize. Google it. It turned out pretty well. But you're missing the whole point. That is the only trade that could be considered an asset liquidation and the only reason it happened is because Pac asked for a trade.

No the point is if the Habs wanted win a win now player back as the main piece they would have got that. Instead they got a recent 13th overall, an 'A' prospect, that was a KEY, it was VERY IMPORTANT to them. The guy who scored 34 points, not so much.

You can twist yourself into pretzels all you want but you are wrong.

 

[Dotter]

Lol ok raymonds will be a 115 pts player. We all know that every players progression is totally linear. Hell by age 35, Raymonds should be getting 200 points season.

The point was, which you have taken out of context, is Suzuki wasn't as good as Raymond at the same age. Raymond will continue to get better and score more points (just as Suzuki has) and could easily hit a 100+ points by the time he is Suzuki's age today. All signs point to that as being a good possibility.

All you can rebut is "our kid can up his game! your kid can't!" -You either have a poor understanding of player development or you are purposely being obtuse.

 

[NikolaTesla]

No the point is if the Habs wanted win a win now player back as the main piece they would have got that. Instead they got a recent 13th overall, an 'A' prospect, that was a KEY, it was VERY IMPORTANT to them. The guy who scored 34 points, not so much.

You can twist yourself into pretzels all you want but you are wrong.

When a player requests a trade youre always always at a disadvantage in trade negotiations.

But thats not even the point, this treade didnt mean the habs were rebuilding, they were active on the free agent market every years.

I find it hilarious that fans of other teams are attempting to tell us when my team started their rebuild. Absolute comedy.

 

[NikolaTesla]

The point was, which you have taken out of context, is Suzuki wasn't as good as Raymond at the same age. Raymond will continue to get better and score more points (just as Suzuki has) and could easily hit a 100+ points by the time he is Suzuki's age today. All signs point to that as being a good possibility.

All you can rebut is "our kid can up his game! your kid can't!" -You either have a poor understanding of player development or you are purposely being obtuse.

You never seen a player peak early? Players all hit their ceiling at the same age? All i said is that saying that "Raymond is trending SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than Suzuki" is a bullshit statement. Im sorry if i don't have Raymond's balls stuck in my eye sockets like you guys.

 

[ewfwgfwahbger]

I'd be down to have a few MTL vs DET playoffs to maybe have a rivalry. It's an O6 team but feels like a distant brother like the Blackhawks. There was the game Roy asked for a trade. Some blowout games throughout the years.

 

[JadedRandom]

Holy **** are people mad in this thread, on both sides.

I voted "too close to call", because it really is.

Detroit has the upper-end on some high-end pieces at D (Seider, Edvinsson, ASP > Hutson, Guhle, Reinbacher as a group) in my opinion while having older players at key positions (Larkin mostly) and lesser offensive prospects (Demidov > anything Detroit has in the pipeline) but arguably better goalie prospects (Cossa, Augustine > Dobes, Fowler, Volokhin).

If we look at salary cap projections for the foreseeable future, both teams have key pieces locked-in and tons of flexibility after 2026-2027 so they'd be equal on that front.

The one area where I think Montreal has the advantage is in draft capital for the next 2 years. Montreal has 9 top 64 picks for the next two drafts whereas Detroit has only 4. But that's not enough for me to be able to statuate one way or another.

That would be about where I stand currently on that subject.

 

[wmupreds]

Don't look now but Albert Johansson is playing 2nd pair (2019 #60 over) and Elmer Soderblom (2019 #159 over), who is 6' 8" and 250 lbs, called up. You should tune in.

Oh wow, they called up a guy with 5 goals in 38 AHL games. He's tall, though! Can't wait to tune in!

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

The Habs rebuild started when Hughes and Gorton arrived. Sorry to those that might displease. There was even an article earlier in the thread that demonstrates this.