Habs vs Wings

[RedHawkDown]

Well, it's good thing they weren't a ''shit'' team then.

But...they picked 3rd overall? So they were?

 

[Bigtrout]

But...they picked 3rd overall? So they were?

They also picked 25th and 31st, I'm sure we could go at this but 10 posts but what's even the point lol.

edit- Just to be clear I'm not calling them a good team either.

 

[RedHawkDown]

They also picked 25th and 31st, I'm sure we could go at this but 10 posts but what's even the point lol.

Like the other poster said, those 2 years they would have picked 14-16 if it was a regular NHL season. They were clearly a bad team, and the idea is just how long has a team been bad and trying to get better. Placing the label "rebuild" on it isn't really that relevant.

 

[Crunchy]

They also picked 25th and 31st, I'm sure we could go at this but 10 posts but what's even the point lol.

The point is that MTL hasn't been good for years and you can't even admit that lol

 

[Bigtrout]

Like the other poster said, those 2 years they would have picked 14-16 if it was a regular NHL season. They were clearly a bad team, and the idea is just how long has a team been bad and trying to get better. Placing the label "rebuild" on it isn't really that relevant.

Nobody knows how 2020 goes with normal divisions, the canadian division had good teams in it, people who said it was the worst division ever are completely clueless. Lazy and weak argument, first covid year they should never have sniffed the playoffs I agree.

The point is that MTL hasn't been good for years and you can't even admit that lol

Oh, I know they weren't good for years, I'm not an idiot. There's still a difference between ''shit'' and mid team with some playoffs success but his point is that apparently the Habs started their rebuild in 2016 under bergevin and that's clueless.

Like I said, this discussion is pointless, Habs started their rebuild in 2021, not in 2016, the fact they got guhle/suzuki/cc before is simply good drafting and trading.

Bergevin was always trying to go for it while the team was in no mans land.

 

[hardcorehabs]

Detroit screwed up their rebuild when the all mighty Yzerman signing bums like Holl, Chariot, Copp, Compher, etc.

If they even enter a window, it will be short as Larkin is 28 already.

Way rather take the Habs roster and GM, as I actually see them building a contender in the next few years.

Wouldn’t surprise me to see Detroit enter a second rebuild.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Well, it's good thing they weren't a ''shit'' team then.

Drafting 3rd overall in 2018 says otherwise.

 

[Bigtrout]

Drafting 3rd overall in 2018 says otherwise.

They were shit in 2018 and have nothing to show for it. That's not hard to admit

We're apparently talking about 2016-2020 here, in which the team had decent playoffs success.

Not that you're here in good faith anywai.

 

[Golden_Jet]

They were shit in 2018 and have nothing to show for it. That's not hard to admit

We're apparently talking about 2016-2020 here, in which the team had decent playoffs success.

Not that you're here in good faith anywai.

Disagree, not like you’re the arbiter of the thread lol.

 

[Bigtrout]

Disagree, not like you’re the arbiter of the thread lol.

Nah I'm saying this cause you were wishing for your team injure habs players the other day.

edit- your post got deleted but it was about Suzuki and his ironman streak

 

[schuelma24]

Detroit screwed up their rebuild when the all mighty Yzerman signing bums like Holl, Chariot, Copp, Compher, etc.

In 3 years Compher will literally be the only one still on the roster (and in his last year).

I'll be the first to concede that many of his FA signings have been misses..but the idea that they've materially handicapped the long term contention window is ridiculous.

 

[hardcorehabs]

In 3 years Compher will literally be the only one still on the roster (and in his last year).

I'll be the first to concede that many of his FA signings have been misses..but the idea that they've materially handicapped the long term contention window is ridiculous.

Attempted to go bubble in 2023 and missed on another Top 5 pick. Bubble in 2024. Still bubble in 2025. At some point have to question the roster build

 

[Xspyrit]

MTL drafted:
2016: 9th overall
2017: 25th overall
2018: 3rd overall
2019: 15th overall
2020: 16th overall (misses playoffs in normal year, would have drafted 8th overall)
2021: 31st overall (misses playoffs in normal year, would have drafted 14th overall)
2022: 1st overall / 26th overall
2023: 5th overall
2024: 5th overall / 21st overall

MTL has finished amongst the top 16 teams in the regular season standings exactly 1 time since 2016. If you weren't rebuilding, you were failing anyway and managing to get more valuable draft slotting that Detroit.

That's actually a very good point. We always refer to "it's only their 4th rebuild season" but if it wasn't for Covid, they wouldn't have made the playoffs since 2017

In 2021, they made it due to the special division re-alignement. Dallas and NYR even finished with more points and didn't make the playoffs. 4 teams from each division were making the playoffs and the North was the weakest one.

In 2020, they won a qualifying round due to 24 teams making the playoffs after the pandemic outbreak. They had the 12th best P% in the East, wouldn't have been near a playoffs spot in a normal year.

They also picked 25th and 31st, I'm sure we could go at this but 10 posts but what's even the point lol.

25th was in 2017 as they finished higher in the standings but lost in first round. Outside of that 2021 miracle run, they have been as bad as other rebuilding teams since 2018

I think all of this might explain a little bit why they are doing well "early" in their rebuild. Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Evans, Struble come from Bergevin's era. Also prospects Joshua Roy, Logan Mailloux and Oliver Kapanen. Artturi Lehkonen got them Carrier and Michael Hage if I'm not mistaken. Petry and Poehling got them Matheson. Romanov got them Dach. However it took some very good moves from Hughes/Gorton for it to happen.

This is the overall NHL ranking in P% from 2017-18 to 2023-24 :

32nd : Chicago Blackhawks
31st : Detroit Red Wings
30th : Ottawa Senators
29th : Anaheim Ducks
28th : Arizona Coyotes
27th : Buffalo Sabres
26th : Montréal Canadiens
25th : San Jose Sharks

26th overall in the last 7 seasons is the shit team the other poster was referring too.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

The fact that this has devolved into an argument about how long Montreal has been rebuilding really says it all

 

[Bouboumaster]

MTL drafted:
2016: 9th overall
2017: 25th overall
2018: 3rd overall
2019: 15th overall
2020: 16th overall (misses playoffs in normal year, would have drafted 8th overall)
2021: 31st overall (misses playoffs in normal year, would have drafted 14th overall)
2022: 1st overall / 26th overall
2023: 5th overall
2024: 5th overall / 21st overall

MTL has finished amongst the top 16 teams in the regular season standings exactly 1 time since 2016. If you weren't rebuilding, you were failing anyway and managing to get more valuable draft slotting that Detroit.

We were failing but Bergevin was legit trying all this Time
Geoff Molson said the word rebuild for the first time in his life in 2021

 

[Bigtrout]

That's actually a very good point. We always refer to "it's only their 4th rebuild season" but if it wasn't for Covid, they wouldn't have made the playoffs since 2017

In 2021, they made it due to the special division re-alignement. Dallas and NYR even finished with more points and didn't make the playoffs. 4 teams from each division were making the playoffs and the North was the weakest one.

In 2020, they won a qualifying round due to 24 teams making the playoffs after the pandemic outbreak. They had the 12th best P% in the East, wouldn't have been near a playoffs spot in a normal year.



25th was in 2017 as they finished higher in the standings but lost in first round. Outside of that 2021 miracle run, they have been as bad as other rebuilding teams since 2018

I think all of this might explain a little bit why they are doing well "early" in their rebuild. Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Evans, Struble come from Bergevin's era. Also prospects Joshua Roy, Logan Mailloux and Oliver Kapanen. Artturi Lehkonen got them Carrier and Michael Hage if I'm not mistaken. Petry and Poehling got them Matheson. Romanov got them Dach. However it took some very good moves from Hughes/Gorton for it to happen.

This is the overall NHL ranking in P% from 2017-18 to 2023-24 :

32nd : Chicago Blackhawks
31st : Detroit Red Wings
30th : Ottawa Senators
29th : Anaheim Ducks
28th : Arizona Coyotes
27th : Buffalo Sabres
26th : Montréal Canadiens
25th : San Jose Sharks

I think the last 3 years of that p% ranking skew things as the team was in full tank mode for those years. From 2016 to 2020 they were always trying to win before with very mixed results, stuck much in no man's land on the backside of Weber's and Price's careers but with some relative success and far from tanking or rebuilding.

They made the most of some mid picks (Caufield, Guhle) and the Pacioretty trade (bergy wanted actually Cody Glass instead of Suzuki). so thankfully they weren't completely lost years. We'd be way further back without these players for sure, so it's a bit of a blessing. None of CC, Suzuki and Guhle are not world beaters but they form a good young veteran core while more talent develop. Unlike a team like the Hawks or San jose who started from scratch.

Michael Hage was from a combinason of picks traded to the Kings for 21st, highest of which (26th) was from Monahan to Winnipeg.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Nah I'm saying this cause you were wishing for your team injure habs players the other day.

edit- your post got deleted but it was about Suzuki and his ironman streak

You got the wrong poster, haven’t had any deleted, and didn’t wish any players injured. No idea what you’re talking about.

You either made that up, or have the wrong poster. We’re done here, as you’re confused.

 

[Bigtrout]

You got the wrong poster, haven’t had any deleted, and didn’t wish any players injured. No idea what you’re talking about.

You either made that up, or have the wrong poster. We’re done here, as you’re confused.

It was in the Sens/Habs poll, and no, I'm not confused.

 

[Xspyrit]

Nobody knows how 2020 goes with normal divisions, the canadian division had good teams in it, people who said it was the worst division ever are completely clueless. Lazy and weak argument, first covid year they should never have sniffed the playoffs I agree.

Sens were in the 4th season of their full scorching earth rebuild (100% roster turnover from their 2017 playoffs run) and had a joke of a team assembled by Pierre Dorion with a few young talented players. They started really bad (2-12-1) but after February 13th, they were the 3rd best team in the North... That division sucked balls. Basically all the Canadian teams are much better today than they were.

Oh, I know they weren't good for years, I'm not an idiot. There's still a difference between ''shit'' and mid team with some playoffs success but his point is that apparently the Habs started their rebuild in 2016 under bergevin and that's clueless.

Like I said, this discussion is pointless, Habs started their rebuild in 2021, not in 2016, the fact they got guhle/suzuki/cc before is simply good drafting and trading.

Bergevin was always trying to go for it while the team was in no mans land.

Which is the point, maybe they should have started the rebuild in 2017-18 when they got 71 pts with a -55 differential. They were just as bad as the Sens who went for a full rebuild (however the ownership context was very different)

I think the last 3 years of that p% ranking skew things as the team was in full tank mode for those years. From 2016 to 2020 they were always trying to win before with very mixed results, stuck much in no man's land on the backside of Weber's and Price's careers but with some relative success and far from tanking or rebuilding.

They made the most of some mid picks (Caufield, Guhle) and the Pacioretty trade (bergy wanted actually Cody Glass instead of Suzuki). so thankfully they weren't completely lost years. We'd be way further back without these players for sure, so it's a bit of a blessing. None of CC, Suzuki and Guhle are not world beaters but they form a good young veteran core while more talent develop. Unlike a team like the Hawks or San jose who started from scratch.

Michael Hage was from a combinason of picks traded to the Kings for 21st, highest of which (26th) was from Monahan to Winnipeg.

yeah a little better if you only look at 2017-18 to 2020-21 : 21st with a 0.510 P%

Don't worry, I know the market here and it was forbidden to think of rebuilding before but that's a reality that the market eventually had to accept.

 

[Bigtrout]

Which is the point, maybe they should have started the rebuild in 2017-18 when they got 71 pts with a -55 differential. They were just as bad as the Sens who went for a full rebuild (however the ownership context was very different)

They should have, Bergevin was an idiot but left some good pieces (and a lot of awful contracts)

 

[bud12]

With everythings that's being said here, I've learned that Buchelnikov is equal to Demidov.

 

[Crunchy]

With everythings that's being said here, I've learned that Buchelnikov is equal to Demidov.

Yeah poor take. Montreal does have the highest ceiling forward and likely highest ceiling player between both teams in Demidov. He's got scary numbers/highlights, but I am a little concerned the KHL isn't what it was and is inflating their younger guys lately.

Also what's Slafkovsky's ceiling?

Feels like Detroit really has to have Danielson hit and 1 of Cossa/Augustine has to be elite if they want to be upper echelon. Then can they get another star forward from their expansive prospect pool or via trade? Can ASP be a star that makes up for it?

Genuine question for Habs fans: Are we assuming Montreal picks in the top 10 moving forward?

If you're Montreal, Reinbacher has to be an absolute defensive stud and you need Dach to hit, or you're relying on Hage/Beck to be your 2C at the moment. Otherwise you have starpower in Demidov and maybe(?) Slafkovsky. You've got some young goalies looking solid atm and Fowler in the pipe. Some real D-zone sore spots in Caufield/Hutson right now that scare me in the playoffs, but also a coach who I think is showing some special qualities in terms of player and team development.

Overall it's Detroit's ability to get studs on D and G vs. Montreal's ability to get some real starpower at F.

 

[HabsMD97]

Yeah poor take. Montreal does have the highest ceiling forward and likely highest ceiling player between both teams in Demidov. He's got scary numbers/highlights, but I am a little concerned the KHL isn't what it was and is inflating their younger guys lately.

Also what's Slafkovsky's ceiling?

Feels like Detroit really has to have Danielson hit and 1 of Cossa/Augustine has to be elite if they want to be upper echelon. Then can they get another star forward from their expansive prospect pool or via trade? Can ASP be a star that makes up for it?

Genuine question for Habs fans: Are we assuming Montreal picks in the top 10 moving forward?

If you're Montreal, Reinbacher has to be an absolute defensive stud and you need Dach to hit, or you're relying on Hage/Beck to be your 2C at the moment. Otherwise you have starpower in Demidov and maybe(?) Slafkovsky. You've got some young goalies looking solid atm and Fowler in the pipe. Some real D-zone sore spots in Caufield/Hutson right now that scare me in the playoffs, but also a coach who I think is showing some special qualities in terms of player and team development.

Overall it's Detroit's ability to get studs on D and G vs. Montreal's ability to get some real starpower at F.

what do you mean by the bolded? This year, next year? What's the timeline?

Question for Wings fans: when do you think DET will be a cup contender and what will the lineup have to look like for the them to be one?