Habs vs Wings

[norrisnick]

Difference is Yzerman signed those guys while Hughes didn't and accumulated picks with the available cap instead

I'm not sure that who signed them makes any difference to the now and the future. They are there and they are irrelevant.

 

[Doom Bot]

None of those guys are impeding Yzerman from retaining the young players he needs to retain, so the point is moot.

He essentially overpaid for vets to plug holes and try to keep the team at least playing competitive hockey to avoid settling into a loser mindset that comes with years of deliberate tanking.

I do agree that he could've done better at weaponizing cap. I was pounding the table to take on Monahan when he was sucking it up in Calgary, and that extra pick would be nice right about now. I'll give you that one.

Honest question; what is the generally accepted reason for that Walman trade? Was it purely a cap thing or more making room for a young guy?

 

[norrisnick]

Honest question; what is the generally accepted reason for that Walman trade? Was it purely a cap thing or more making room for a young guy?

Off-ice reasons. Questions regarding his commitment to rehab and getting back on the ice for the playoff push. Wasn't cap or roster spot related. Other more expensive players have been waived and sent to the AHL this season. If those were the reasons the same could have been done with Walman. The team simply didn't want him around anymore.

 

[Pavels Dog]

He probably will stop doing it yes but pro scouting seems to have been pretty poor for a while for you guys...

It's been hit and miss. The misses seem to get by far the most attention though. It would also seem like they value character a lot. Might not seem like much at the surface level but could impact the younger players positively in the long run.

Michael Hage is a better prospect than either Danielson or Kasper

He looks great but it's been half a season in the NCAA. His current PPG among U19 forwards in that league, since 2010, is right around Snuggerud, Bordeleau, Nadeau, Newhook, even Max Plante this season (only 7GP). It's also right below Dylan Larkin.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Honest question; what is the generally accepted reason for that Walman trade? Was it purely a cap thing or more making room for a young guy?

Only sense I can make of it is there was an off-ice issue, because he was far from our worst defenseman, and Yzerman already proved with Vrana that if he feels you're a negative influence he'll get rid of you quick.

 

[hardcorehabs]

1

Using the same logic, Roman Kantserov looks better than Demidov lol.

15 months not 6, try again

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

1

15 months not 6, try again

.75 PPG is not PPG. Try again.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Wings young D is currently better, Montreal has more offensive weapons coming through the pipeline. However, the best forward on either team is Raymond right now. I'd say these two are pretty close.

 

[newfy]

Detroit has the best 2 pieces in Raymond + Seider between the 2 teams. But they each have enough prospects with high upside, ad have had a lot of picks the last few seasons that it could still go either way depending on how some guys pan out.

 

[Bigtrout]

Detroit has the best 2 pieces in Raymond + Seider between the 2 teams. But they each have enough prospects with high upside, ad have had a lot of picks the last few seasons that it could still go either way depending on how some guys pan out.

I prefer Hutson and Demidov but I'm biased, I think the upside is higher but Seider and Raymond are already top tier and well established

 

[Dotter]

I prefer Hutson and Demidov but I'm biased, I think the upside is higher but Seider and Raymond are already top tier and well established

I don't think Hutson is the real deal.

 

[Bigtrout]

I don't think Hutson is the real deal.

He's having a monster rookie season, 25 points in his last 23 games and doing fine defensively

 

[Dotter]

He's having a monster rookie season, 25 points in his last 23 games and doing fine defensively

I think he'll prove to be a one hit wonder. If he sustains it for a few seasons I'll eat crow. I just don't see it.

 

[HabsCode]

Dunno that I'd call the Habs "Ahead" simply because their prospects are arriving faster. Especially considering Detroit is notorious for overcooking their prospects.

Larkin and Suzuki are pretty comparable quality-wise, with the Montreal advantage of Suzuki being a few years younger. Point Montreal for age, I guess. As players, they're very similar, though.

For size and style, you could compare Caufield and Debrincat, in which case currently you pretty easily take Caufield. Point to Montreal, there.

Detroit has Raymond, who has taken so many steps in the last year and a half that if you're Montreal, you're pretty happy if Demidov reaches his level. That's still a question mark. Rather easily point Detroit right now.

Defense wise, I'd take Detroit's trio of Seider/Edvinsson/ASP over Guhle/Hutson/Reinbacher, though it's somewhat of a weird comparison. Seider and Reinbacher are probably most comparable, but Seider is Detroit's most proven and Reinbacher hasn't really proven anything yet. Pretty much the same case with Hutson and ASP comparably, except Hutson is the proven one and ASP hasn't proven anything yet.

Where things get murky is that Detroit has a couple bigger name prospects with questionable offensive upside in Danielson and Kasper, while Montreal has some bigger name young players in the NHL already, who kinda aren't playing up to the level expected of them. (Slaf/Dach/Newhook) How all those guys progress going forward will probably tilt this.

As far as future goalies go, Cossa, Fowler, and Augustine are all solid prospects. At this point though, Cossa's the most proven at the highest level, and I'll take two shots over one when it comes to goalie prospects. Point Detroit.

You omitted Dobes in net for Montreal.

 

[Zalos]

Leaning a little bit on the Habs side, but I chose "too close to call".

It all depends on how their prospects pan out in the next few years.

Detroit is definitely older currently, though. They should be ahead right now as far as results are concerned.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Habs fans flood every thread that’s ever created on this site so they will obviously get voted above, but with that said it’s pretty damn close. As of right now the red wings have the better top end players and I’m not sure that will change, though the habs do have demidov. I think the Canadians just have more good players overall, but I don’t know if they will be able to match the red wings top end. The fact of the matter is, the red wings go very underrated in these conversations. They have two elite goalie prospects, their defensive prospect pool is loaded. The biggest question is at forward, and admittedly they might not have a 1c in their pool.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

He probably will stop doing it yes but pro scouting seems to have been pretty poor for a while for you guys...

Both teams in my opinion need(ed) another lottery pick to solidify their rebuilds. They will have to be crafty to get another top line forward if they don't

Nobody knows this but the red wings have an elite prospect in the KHL waiting to come over. Most people have never heard of him, but anyone who has been following him knows as a prospect he has all the potential to be a top forward.

 

[BergevinBurner]

As of right now the red wings have the better top end players and I’m not sure that will change, though the habs do have demidov.

I don't see that at all. I think the top end players are very comparable. Suzuki and Larkin are fairly close, but Suzuki's 3 years younger. Debrincat and Caufield are close, but Caufield's 3 years younger.

Seider and Hutson are very different players, but with the rookie season Huston's having I'd have a hard time saying Seider will be definitively better.

The biggest difference would be Raymond>Slaf/Laine. But with Demidov looking ready to fill that elite winger role next season I don't see either team having much of an edge in top end players.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I don't see that at all. I think the top end players are very comparable. Suzuki and Larkin are fairly close, but Suzuki's 3 years younger. Debrincat and Caufield are close, but Caufield's 3 years younger.

Seider and Hutson are very different players, but with the rookie season Huston's having I'd have a hard time saying Seider will be definitively better.

The biggest difference would be Raymond>Slaf/Laine. But with Demidov looking ready to fill that elite winger role next season I don't see either team having much of an edge in top end players.

Debrincat is irrelevant, he’s not apart of our long term future. I’m not hating Hutson when I say this, but you better hope he averages 60 points every season, because that is what he will need to be better than seider. Seider is on pace for 50 points, 200 hits and 200 shots blocked this season. He will be the only player in the league with those stats. The only player in the past 5 seasons with those stats. Also I think demidov will be very good but we also haven’t seen it, Raymond is on pace for 90 points so for now he’s easily better than anything the habs have.

Bottom line is, you hope demidov becomes what Raymond is, you hope lane Hutson can score enough points to make up for how small he is and frankly will always be less versatile on defense because of it. These are things you hope happen, but we know what the red wings high end players are and are capable of. And that’s not even taking into account Simon edvinsson, who could end up being the best defenseman between both teams. But again that’s more of a best case scenario similar to habs prospects. Caufield is a better goal scorer than the red wings have by a pretty good margin though, I’ll give you that.

 

[BergevinBurner]

Debrincat is irrelevant, he’s not apart of our long term future. I’m not hating Hutson when I say this, but you better hope he averages 60 points every season, because that is what he will need to be better than seider. Seider is on pace for 50 points, 200 hits and 200 shots blocked this season. He will be the only player in the league with those stats. Also I think demidov will be very good but we also haven’t seen it, Raymond is on pace for 90 points so for now he’s easily better than anything the habs have.

Bottom line is, you hope demidov becomes what Raymond is, you hope lane Hutson can score enough points to make up for how small he is and frankly will always be less versatile on defense because of it. These are things you hope happen, but we know what the red wings players are and are capable of. And that’s not even taking into account Simon edvinsson, who could end up being the best defenseman between both teams. But again that’s more of a best case scenario similar to habs prospects.

I have 0 worries about Hutson averaging 60+ a season. He's on pace for 67 as a rookie and he only started getting PP1 time starting last month. I don't "hope lane Hutson can score enough points" to make up for his size, I already know he does lol.

Meanwhile Demidov's coming off a historic MHL season and on pace to blow past the all time U20 scoring record for the KHL. Obviously he's an unknown until he gets here, but I think him developing into a PPG winger is a fairly likely outcome.

I just don't see the separation between the top end talent that you do. Montreal's currently ahead of the Wings in the standing with this supposed inferior talent and our key guys are all multiple years younger than the Wings guys. I feel like this conversation is going to be leaning heavily in a different direction in a few years time.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I have 0 worries about Hutson averaging 60+ a season. He's on pace for 67 as a rookie and he only started getting PP1 time starting last month. I don't "hope lane Hutson can score enough points" to make up for his size, I already know he does lol.

Meanwhile Demidov's coming off a historic MHL season and on pace to blow past the all time U20 scoring record for the KHL. Obviously he's an unknown until he gets here, but I think him developing into a PPG winger is a fairly likely outcome.

I just don't see the separation between the top end talent that you do. Montreal's currently ahead of the Wings in the standing with this supposed inferior talent and our key guys are all multiple years younger than the Wings guys. I feel like this conversation is going to be leaning heavily in a different direction in a few years time.

The thing is, Hutson is small even by small standards, this isn’t a Quinn Hughes situation. The kid is under 160 pounds and is definitely not 5’9. So he’s going to really have to score to make up for…literally everything else. I personally just am not interested in defenseman like that, but I’m open to being wrong. We have a Demidov of our own in buchneilkov, so as much as a I like Demidov it’s not like the wings don’t have an extremely similar situation as him.

Standings have nothing to do with it, I think both teams are extremely mediocre in their current state, but neither teams will win anything of note this year so it doesn’t matter. But I find the red wings high end prospects to just be doing better than the habs ones this year. To me there’s a clear separation. I also don’t think age matters all that much, seider is 23, Raymond is 22. It’s not like these guys are old, they’ve just been around longer.

I just don’t have much belief in a team who 2 of your 3 best under 23 players, are 5’8 and smaller. I think the habs current core will get bullied in the playoffs.

 

[waitin425]

The thing is, Hutson is small even by small standards, this isn’t a Quinn Hughes situation. The kid is under 160 pounds and is definitely not 5’9. So he’s going to really have to score to make up for…literally everything else. I personally just am not interested in defenseman like that, but I’m open to being wrong. We have a Demidov of our own in buchneilkov, so as much as a I like Demidov it’s not like the wings don’t have an extremely similar situation as him.

Standings have nothing to do with it, I think both teams are extremely mediocre in their current state, but neither teams will win anything of note this year so it doesn’t matter. But I find the red wings high end prospects to just be doing better than the habs ones this year. To me there’s a clear separation. I also don’t think age matters all that much, seider is 23, Raymond is 22. It’s not like these guys are old, they’ve just been around longer.

I just don’t have much belief in a team who 2 of your 3 best under 23 players, are 5’8 and smaller. I think the habs current core will get bullied in the playoffs.

Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson are all excellent pieces. Larkin, Debrincat and old man Kane are too.

Your Hutson comments show that you haven't watched much of him. He will threaten for Norris trophies. He is that good.

You have your own Demidov in Buchneilkov? Had to look him up, as Ive never heard of him. Decent stats.....but seriously? You think Buchneilkov is a top 5 in any draft class? Demidov is looking like surefire #2 behind Celebrini in his draft class, and you think Buchneilkov is right there with him? I need to pay attention to that kid I guess.

While you have young talent who have superstar potential. We do as well. While you have talented veteran leadership to support those young superstars, we do as well (Suzuki, Caufield, Laine, Dach, Slaf). While you have an up and coming goalie in Cossa.....we do too in Dobes and Fowler.

I voted Habs....because well thats my team....but it is too close to call. Both teams in the very near future should be perrenial playoff teams and as long as we both move ahead of the Leafs we should be able to be friends.

 

[Artaud]

The thing is, Hutson is small even by small standards, this isn’t a Quinn Hughes situation. The kid is under 160 pounds and is definitely not 5’9. So he’s going to really have to score to make up for…literally everything else. I personally just am not interested in defenseman like that, but I’m open to being wrong. We have a Demidov of our own in buchneilkov, so as much as a I like Demidov it’s not like the wings don’t have an extremely similar situation as him.

Standings have nothing to do with it, I think both teams are extremely mediocre in their current state, but neither teams will win anything of note this year so it doesn’t matter. But I find the red wings high end prospects to just be doing better than the habs ones this year. To me there’s a clear separation. I also don’t think age matters all that much, seider is 23, Raymond is 22. It’s not like these guys are old, they’ve just been around longer.

I just don’t have much belief in a team who 2 of your 3 best under 23 players, are 5’8 and smaller. I think the habs current core will get bullied in the playoffs.

Did you measure Hutson or is it a gander you took looking at the tv screen from your couch? He's listed at an admittedly generous 5'10.

Demidov is a special talent breaking records at every level and arguably the best Russian prospect since Ovechkin/Makin. He could very likely turn out to be a tier above any forward on either team, including Raymond. Saying Buchelnikov is your own version of that is like comparing store-brand seven-up and champagne.

Montreal really wishes it had a Seider, and Detroit has many other good young defenders coming up, so I think it's fair to say Detroit has a better outlook on defense.

However, with Caufield, Suzuki, Laine, Slafkovsky and Demidov as blue chip talents in their prime up front, I don't see the Wings in the same tier there.

Both teams have great goalie prospects, but projecting those is very hard.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson are all excellent pieces. Larkin, Debrincat and old man Kane are too.

Your Hutson comments show that you haven't watched much of him. He will threaten for Norris trophies. He is that good.

You have your own Demidov in Buchneilkov? Had to look him up, as Ive never heard of him. Decent stats.....but seriously? You think Buchneilkov is a top 5 in any draft class? Demidov is looking like surefire #2 behind Celebrini in his draft class, and you think Buchneilkov is right there with him? I need to pay attention to that kid I guess.

While you have young talent who have superstar potential. We do as well. While you have talented veteran leadership to support those young superstars, we do as well (Suzuki, Caufield, Laine, Dach, Slaf). While you have an up and coming goalie in Cossa.....we do too in Dobes and Fowler.

I voted Habs....because well thats my team....but it is too close to call. Both teams in the very near future should be perrenial playoff teams and as long as we both move ahead of the Leafs we should be able to be friends.

Listen don’t be salty because I value the complete package. Hutson will always score a lot of points, but he will never be a huge hitter, or shot blocker, or some one you can have clear the crease, and who knows if he even will develop to be a good defender? Again, Hutson is very very tiny. Not just in height but muscle too, we will see if he’s a unicorn in that aspect but I doubt it. He will have to put on serious mass for his long term health.

Buchnelikov has more points than demidov this season on a worse team in the KHL, demidov is 2 years younger, so I’ll still give demidov the edge, but buchnelikov is that good. I wish he’d put on more weight though.

the reality is most people just don’t pay attention or know red wings prospects. Trey Augustine and Sebastian Cossa are the best goalie prospect tandom in a long time but you just … never hear about it. Both absolute blue chip prospects.

I think the habs have the edge in forward (though they do have to get that center situation figured out) and the red wings have an edge in defense and goaltending. We will see which one provides a more fruitful rebuild.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Did you measure Hutson or is it a gander you took looking at the tv screen from your couch? He's listed at an admittedly generous 5'10.

Demidov is a special talent breaking records at every level and arguably the best Russian prospect since Ovechkin/Makin. He could very likely turn out to be a tier above any forward on either team, including Raymond. Saying Buchelnikov is your own version of that is like comparing store-brand seven-up and champagne.

Montreal really wishes it had a Seider, and Detroit has many other good young defenders coming up, so I think it's fair to say Detroit has a better outlook on defense.

However, with Caufield, Suzuki, Laine, Slafkovsky and Demidov as blue chip talents in their prime up front, I don't see the Wings in the same tier there.

Both teams have great goalie prospects, but projecting those is very hard.

You know buch is outscoring Demidov right? I still give the edge to demidov because he’s younger and a bigger player, but saying it’s champagne compared to seven up just shows you guys need to up your knowledge on prospects that aren’t just habs centered.