Habs vs Sens
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EveryDay
Registered User
- Jun 13, 2009
- 14,971
- 8,113
Show how dumb your takes are.
Continue to draft your Boucher type of player, it seems to work fine as Ottawa misses the playoffs for the last 9 seasons
Ottawa are at the bottom of the league offensively, its great!
And how do you know Suzuki was 100% all year.Ya saying Suzuki has been able to manage as many points as Stutzle who was injured all year from game 4 on last year, what an admirable accomplishment.
Kudo Shinichi
Registered User
- Apr 20, 2012
- 21,450
- 28,807
So Stutzle is a true 1C because he had 1 season worthy of a 1C (according to you) in 5 years?
Is Kadri also a true 1C? I mean he paced for a 100 pts just a few seasons ago...
BehindTheTimes
Registered User
- Jun 24, 2018
- 7,573
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Ottawa will be trending down before they ever play a playoff game. It’s Montreal and it’s not close.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Some things need to be added to this thread I think
Most points U-23, active players :
1- Sidney Crosby 506 pts
Connor McDavid 469 pts
Steven Stamkos 386 pts
Alexander Ovechkin 310 pts
5- Yevgeni Malkin 304 pts
Nathan MacKinnon 303 pts
Patrick Kane 303 pts
Mitchell Marner 291 pts
9- Tim Stützle 290 pts
.... (60 players)
Nick Suzuki 143 pts
Tim Stutzle turned 23 y/o yesterday on January 15th.
Maybe when Stutzle was 19 y/o but his 2-way game has evolved, I think he might start getting Selke votes as soon as this season. People quickly forget but the guy actually turned 23 y/o YESTERDAY. At that age, Suzuki had one 61 pts season and two 41 pts seasons.
Regarding defensive play, Suzuki has had bumps down the road with 2 really poor seasons in 2021-22 and 2022-23. He doesn't seem to have really good defensive metrics this season too (46.10 xGF% and 2.95 xGA/60 at 5v5). Stutzle on the other end is trending the other way as already mentioned. I don't have any other card on hand at the moment but :
When a poster needs to fall into intellectual dishonesty, IMO he already lost the battle. As mentioned already, at Stutzle's age, Suzuki had ONE 61 pts season.
- Tyler Boucher is just one of these Dorion things, but it might not even a Top-10 worst Dorion moves, as crazy as it sounds. There's no limit to the DAMAGE this guy did.
- It's not 9 seasons it's 7 seasons lol.
- Ottawa is 20th in GF/GP, which is below average but not bottom of the league. That said, after how the last seasons went, the focus was defensive play this season and they are 8th for GA/GP and lead the league for shutouts (7).
- Ottawa has scored 2.88 goals per game, good for 20th. Montreal has scored 3.00 G/GP which is 15th, so only 0.12 goals per games separates Ottawa from the average.
- I was expecting a need for Ottawa to find 2 new forwards who could bring offense in 2025-26 with Giroux and Perron approaching 37 y/o but it has already started this season with Giroux declining a bit more and Perron not even available to play so far (who was supposed to replace Tarasenko's offense). Greig has not scored more than his rookie season (0.33 vs 0.36 PPG) and Pinto PPG has actually regressed (but he's finally heating up lately), 0.66 to 0.40.
- I was also expecting Montreal current progression to happen next season but it seems to be happening now. Their GM(s) are doing what it takes to happen and spend the necessary money needed in Laine and Carrier acquisitions. Price's LTIR contract is also a bit lucky since it allows them to spend this cap and they probably get better goaltending than they would from an injuries diminished 37 y/o goalie.
Most points U-23, active players :
1- Sidney Crosby 506 pts
Connor McDavid 469 pts
Steven Stamkos 386 pts
Alexander Ovechkin 310 pts
5- Yevgeni Malkin 304 pts
Nathan MacKinnon 303 pts
Patrick Kane 303 pts
Mitchell Marner 291 pts
9- Tim Stützle 290 pts
.... (60 players)
Nick Suzuki 143 pts
Tim Stutzle turned 23 y/o yesterday on January 15th.
Maybe when Stutzle was 19 y/o but his 2-way game has evolved, I think he might start getting Selke votes as soon as this season. People quickly forget but the guy actually turned 23 y/o YESTERDAY. At that age, Suzuki had one 61 pts season and two 41 pts seasons.
Regarding defensive play, Suzuki has had bumps down the road with 2 really poor seasons in 2021-22 and 2022-23. He doesn't seem to have really good defensive metrics this season too (46.10 xGF% and 2.95 xGA/60 at 5v5). Stutzle on the other end is trending the other way as already mentioned. I don't have any other card on hand at the moment but :
When a poster needs to fall into intellectual dishonesty, IMO he already lost the battle. As mentioned already, at Stutzle's age, Suzuki had ONE 61 pts season.
Continue to draft your Boucher type of player, it seems to work fine as Ottawa misses the playoffs for the last 9 seasons
Ottawa are at the bottom of the league offensively, its great!
- Tyler Boucher is just one of these Dorion things, but it might not even a Top-10 worst Dorion moves, as crazy as it sounds. There's no limit to the DAMAGE this guy did.
- It's not 9 seasons it's 7 seasons lol.
- Ottawa is 20th in GF/GP, which is below average but not bottom of the league. That said, after how the last seasons went, the focus was defensive play this season and they are 8th for GA/GP and lead the league for shutouts (7).
- Ottawa has scored 2.88 goals per game, good for 20th. Montreal has scored 3.00 G/GP which is 15th, so only 0.12 goals per games separates Ottawa from the average.
- I was expecting a need for Ottawa to find 2 new forwards who could bring offense in 2025-26 with Giroux and Perron approaching 37 y/o but it has already started this season with Giroux declining a bit more and Perron not even available to play so far (who was supposed to replace Tarasenko's offense). Greig has not scored more than his rookie season (0.33 vs 0.36 PPG) and Pinto PPG has actually regressed (but he's finally heating up lately), 0.66 to 0.40.
- I was also expecting Montreal current progression to happen next season but it seems to be happening now. Their GM(s) are doing what it takes to happen and spend the necessary money needed in Laine and Carrier acquisitions. Price's LTIR contract is also a bit lucky since it allows them to spend this cap and they probably get better goaltending than they would from an injuries diminished 37 y/o goalie.
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
If it was only just that...
- Staios actually managed to salvage the DeBrincat debacle by trading the late 1st round pick obtained via Detroit to get Ullmark (and unload 75% of the last 3 years on Korpisalo's contract). He also had to sacrifice a pretty good 4th liner in Kastelic but small price to pay to get a real starting goalie (who has unfortuantely been injured 50% of the season so far)
- Staios also partially salvaged some of the Chychrun debacle in getting Jensen and a pick. Jensen is good defensively and finally a good partner for Chabot but the loss in asset value is huge, as Dorion traded a 12th OA pick and two 2nd round picks to get Chychrun who is a beast in reality but was not the right move for Ottawa last season.
Speaking of a good partner for Chabot, Dorion decided a few years ago to trade Dylan DeMelo for a 3rd round pick even though he wanted to stay (IIRC the rumored ask was 4 years and around 3-4 AAV). Thankfully, they drafted Leevi Merilainen with the pick so maybe it will be salvaged as well.
But just to say that there has been so MANY assets wasted under Dorion, it would take a lot of words to actually list every damaging Dorion's move. Just another 2 examples :
- traded 24 y/o Filip Gustavsson for 35 y/o UFA-to-be Cam Talbot. Gustavsson had an incredible season in 2022-23 and will probably get some 2nd/3rd place Vezina votes this season.
- traded a 2nd round pick for a declined Derek Stepan who had a 6.5 AAV. In comparison, Montreal got a 1st round pick to take on Monahan (or a 2nd to take on Laine) and even got another 1st round pick (where they drafted Michael Hage) when they traded Monahan to the Jets as a rental.
That something is called Pierre Dorion, literally the worst GM in NHL history. He dilapidated assets like a maniac going to a casino for the first time.
Uh.... Ullmark has the best SV% and best GSAA/60 among goalies for years and years.
No, plus/minus doesn't say anything, you have to push the analysis further. xGF% vs GF% vs PDO
Sens seems to finally have a real NHL GM but he has a lot of mess left by Dorion to fix, which he has started doing with the Ullmark/Korpisalo trade. They seem to have done better in the 2024 draft than the 3 drafts prior too, with Yakemchuk and Montgomery possibly becoming 2 big pieces down the road (the 4 other picks are also intriguing)
It's true that the drafting declined from Murray days but I think it's more 2021, 2022 and 2023 that hurts. Of course reaching like crazy for Tyler Boucher and trading your first 2 years in a row (for DeBrincat and Chychrun) doesn't help.
2016 : very non-productive draft
2017 : only 4 picks but Batherson and Formenton were steals, but as you said no choice to move on from AF
2018 : Tkachuk 4th OA, JBD should have a decent career
2019 : Pinto excellent 2nd rounder, Kastelic a good find too. Sogaard could still eventually figure it out at the NHL level.
2020 : incredible draft, there's also Kleven and Merilainen you didn't mention. Plus Jarventie depending on health. Reinhardt should be a good 4th liner for years.
2021 : Ostapchuk, a good 4th liner and that's it. Awful draft
2022 : that draft doesn't seem very promising as well, maybe Halliday and/or Donovan.
2023 : another dud, maybe Andonovski becomes a 3rd pairing D-man?
He didn't say forever, he said "a long time". 5 years is a long time in terms of a contending window. As I said before, Dorion has diminished Ottawa's potential window in terms of length and quality. If we had a monkey sitting on his hands instead, we'd be in a infinitely better position, probably an elite team already.
We'll need Staios to pull off more miracle moves ala Ullmark
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
I'm sorry but no, their depth completely trumps ours. Outside of the first groupings you made, they have guys like Heineman, Hage, Beck, Roy, Reinbacher, Mailloux, Engstrom, Dobes, etc... Greig is great and Montgomery is very intriguing but this is not even close. Ostapchuk and Reinhardt are great bottom-6 forward prospects but nothing special.
ok that's where the line is for me. I disagreed with the poster but your post is completely ignorant, just homer crap. Greig is already an excellent 3rd line versatile forward. He's only 22 y/o and has a 0.36 PPG in the NHL which is 30 pts per 82 games on average. You know what is 24 y/o Kirby Dach career PPG? 0.45, which is 37 pts per 82 games. And Greig's game is actually built on plenty other things than scoring.
And Ostapchuk is definitely NHL level, he's just 21 y/o. I don't think he has enough offensive potential to be more than an excellent 4th liner but should definitely be a quality bottom-6 forward
Halliday is intriguing but he's far from a top prospect, Dorion just has completed depleted the pipeline so he's among the Sens Top-5 right now (Yakemchuk, Merilainen and Montgomery are the Top-3)
I disagreed with the poster you quoted as the 2 prospect pools are not even comparable right now but no ridiculous claims please, it makes the discussion go sideways.
Norris is obviously not the same player as before his injuries. It's sill unknown if he will be able to get back on track but this guy scored 47 goals in 91 games before his injuries, at 21-22 y/o, while facing top competition night after night as the first line Center on a rebuilding team and posting excellent metrics. He was definitely Suzuki's level but a goal scoring version.
okay it remains to be seen but yes Dorion completely scrapped the 2nd part of the rebuild. It's true that they should have more depth and a much better pool. Sens also lost Formenton who was going to be a pretty slick middle six forward, probably the 2nd fastest skater in the league after McDavid.
It's also important to remember that Ottawa was STUCK with Dorion until Melnyk passed away and the team finally got sold. This process took a while but Dorion IMO should have been replaced in 2021. Unfortunately the sale didn't happen earlier, which allowed Dorion to do more damage.
Homer takes. Hutson is elite offensively though.
I haven't read the thread until now but these takes are not pretty.
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Show how dumb your takes are.
Continue to draft your Boucher type of player, it seems to work fine as Ottawa misses the playoffs for the last 9 seasons
Ottawa are at the bottom of the league offensively, its great!
Yes and the Habs are at the bottom of the league defensively!
If you play good defense, you can win sustainably. You can’t with little guys who only play offense.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 27,698
- 14,685
Here is Suzuki and Stützle Compared head to head at 5 on 5.
They’re 7th worst in goals against per game, right between Buffalo and Detroit. 6th worst in expected goals against at 5v5.
Ottawa is 8th best in ga/game and 3rd best in expected goals against at 5v5.
One style of play can sustain winning. The other can’t.
Interestingly, both teams are poor offensively at even strength. Montreal is 23rd in expected goals for, Ottawa 24th. Ottawa has the better PP though.
The streak the Habs are on is a mirage.
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Not only were they not "at the bottom of the league", but you've ignored Montreal's turnaround, which is the major story. After a crappy first month, the team completely turned around their season. For over two months, the Habs have been among the BEST teams by most metrics.
Nobody cares about the first month when they've been playing at this level:
FYI, Ottawa still has a slightly better GA/GP, but Montreal has a substantially better GF/GP and very slightly better SA/GP.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Their defensive play has improved a lot lately. Players like Evans, Armia and Carrier are providing excellent support
Hopefully for us, they are simply riding a hot wave and they come back to earth soon. The hope is here :
Since December 17th, they are 10-2-1, best record in the NHL (tied with Oilers)
BUT
Their xGF% (all situations) is 16th with the 3rd best PDO in the league... which means the forwards are converting a lot above expected and goalies save a lot above expected. It's not like the Oilers for example, who have the 2nd best xGF% and the 9th best PDO.
Yeah Stu has phenomenal metrics for a 22 y/o center, I'm more and more convinced he will start getting Selke votes.
Habano
Allez les Bleus, (Blancs, Rouges)
- May 18, 2012
- 5,970
- 8,454
Agreed. Suzuki was tied for 15th in points for Cs last year while playing for a bottom 5 team. However, there were several teams (TBL, VAN, EDM, FLA) with more than 1 C who were in the top 15. I'm not even counting Carolina because Guentzel played with them and Pitt. So, if Suzuki is not a #1 Center, does that mean that there are around 20 other teams that don't have a #1 C? Makes sense.....
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On high end talent, including prospects, I prefer the Senators. But it's close enough that this will come down to coaching, team play, and goaltending, and who has the best bottom six pick ups in a given year. Right now I'm not that confident in Ottawa's choices in that regard.
Meanwhile the Habs are playing a very good team game in the last couple weeks but they're also going to learn how hard it is to sustain that - it all seems like it is going to be easy coming out of a rebuild when you haven't been under consistent pressure.
Meanwhile the Habs are playing a very good team game in the last couple weeks but they're also going to learn how hard it is to sustain that - it all seems like it is going to be easy coming out of a rebuild when you haven't been under consistent pressure.
The Sens have a very strong core of top players in their roster right now while the Habs have stronger depth (though a lot of it is vets) and what could be a very good goalie tandem in the coming years. The Sens are a surer thing down center with potential uncertainty regarding Dach while the Habs are denser on the wings
Sanderson is a more "traditional" #1D with size and the complete package, but take a look at Hutson. He's pretty special. Whereas I'd have given the Sens the edge handily before on D going forward, I'm not so sure at all now.
The answer for me lies on the potential of the teams going forward and how it trends for the following players:
Sanderson is a more "traditional" #1D with size and the complete package, but take a look at Hutson. He's pretty special. Whereas I'd have given the Sens the edge handily before on D going forward, I'm not so sure at all now.
The answer for me lies on the potential of the teams going forward and how it trends for the following players:
- What does Laine look like at the end of the season? Next season? Will he want to re-sign and for how much? He adds another dimension to the Habs
- I've never seen a skater prospect as good as Demidov on the Habs in my lifetime. It feels like he'll be the best forward on the team 40 games in next season. Honestly he swings the answer to question alone
- Reinbacher has had a rough year so far. Can he rebound and be a solid top 4 RD for the Habs? There's currently a huge gap at RD in the team
- Can Hage play C at the NHL level or is he another W/C hybrid? He's already an excellent prospect, but if he can actually become a solid 2C, the Habs will be a contender
Been saying this for a year, maybe two now, but I feel like the Sens have a collection of stud core players, but no real team "Identity".
Bouboumaster
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2014
- 11,305
- 10,170
"Sens have the best talents Everywhere!"
Ok cool, how are the Habs and the Sens ex aequo right now then? How is it possible, if:
Stützle and Tkachuck better than everyone on the Habs;
Batherson better than everyone not named Suzuki;
Top 3 defensemen in Ottawa better than Hutson
The answer, is that those takes are wrong
Reality:
Stützle could be a one-hit wonder and topped at 90. Possibly the better forward on both team, but it's disputed by the fact that Suzuki is a better two-way forward. They are currently almost Equal in points too (Suzuki has 2 more, in fact)
Tkachuck ain't better than either Suzuki and Caufield. Is he a physical Beast? Hell yeah! A better hockey player? Nope.
Hutson will be perceived as the better defenseman on either team by the end of the year
Ok cool, how are the Habs and the Sens ex aequo right now then? How is it possible, if:
Stützle and Tkachuck better than everyone on the Habs;
Batherson better than everyone not named Suzuki;
Top 3 defensemen in Ottawa better than Hutson
The answer, is that those takes are wrong
Reality:
Stützle could be a one-hit wonder and topped at 90. Possibly the better forward on both team, but it's disputed by the fact that Suzuki is a better two-way forward. They are currently almost Equal in points too (Suzuki has 2 more, in fact)
Tkachuck ain't better than either Suzuki and Caufield. Is he a physical Beast? Hell yeah! A better hockey player? Nope.
Hutson will be perceived as the better defenseman on either team by the end of the year
Tkachuk not bringing as much to the table as Caufield is laughable.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 27,698
- 14,685
I’ve only seen satire so far, no one takes any of those posts serious I hope
.And since December 24, the Canadiens are tied for 2nd, at 2.00 per game.
Ottawa is also pretty good, tied for 6th, at 2.30 per game.
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