Post-Game Talk: Habs lose to Tampa in the first period

[ReHabs]

Its a fact. But what you don't acknowledge is that its a misleading fact.

Any point he will score in the next 18 games will add between 7 to 3 points to his total pace.

The topic is whether Habs fans are to blame for being less than enthusiastic right now.

Naturally a huge contingent of Habs fans would rather take a bullet to the heart than accept any criticism of the Habs organization or whoever is the current Habs GM, so it naturally follows they will attack other fans for not being sufficiently encouraged and ecstatic for the perceived future of the organization at this current moment. Dach injured, Slaf not producing, Suzuki not showing another level, Newhook not producing, Anderson in the gutter. It's not a particularly good feeling at this time -- and we look at the prospect pool and there's Roy who is a rookie in the AHL doing rookie things, Hutson who's light's out, and Reinbacher who just came back from injury.

I think every fanbase can handle a rebuild if there is light at the end of the tunnel. Even if Hutson turns out as good as can be expected (genuine PMD), we're still nowhere close to have exit velocity from the orbit of Crap Team to Winning Team. I'd be a lot more zen about non-stop losing and shameful matches if it seemed we were on the right track as an organization. So far, at best, you can say it's TBD.

 

[Redux91]

Wondering if those that liked the Anderson trade and contract still feel that way...

Well it's 4 years later lol, way to flex

But it would appear that it's run it's course yeah

The topic is whether Habs fans are to blame for being less than enthusiastic right now.

Naturally a huge contingent of Habs fans would rather take a bullet to the heart than accept any criticism of the Habs organization or whoever is the current Habs GM, so it naturally follows they will attack other fans for not being sufficiently encouraged and ecstatic for the perceived future of the organization at this current moment. Dach injured, Slaf not producing, Suzuki not showing another level, Newhook not producing, Anderson in the gutter. It's not a particularly good feeling at this time -- and we look at the prospect pool and there's Roy who is a rookie in the AHL doing rookie things, Hutson who's light's out, and Reinbacher who just came back from injury.

I think every fanbase can handle a rebuild if there is light at the end of the tunnel. Even if Hutson turns out as good as can be expected (genuine PMD), we're still nowhere close to have exit velocity from the orbit of Crap Team to Winning Team. I'd be a lot more zen about non-stop losing and shameful matches if it seemed we were on the right track as an organization. So far, at best, you can say it's TBD.

It absolutely disgusts me any time you use the word "we" lol

 

[montreal]

After the Ducharme lousy season that had in fired. And the last two seasons where there was an "undertanding" that we were in fact tanking, you don't think it's more than enough? Personally I was ready for a soft tanking this year still but with at least a showing of improvement. I think next year will be the time to at least take a bigger step forward.

I think MB left us in a terrible spot that the only hope of getting out of it quicker then the 5-8 years I would expect it to take is if they drafted well and learn how to develop offensive talent.

So far we see they can develop Caufield so there's hope for Hutson imo to be at the same level or better, but then you have to have a team around them that can help them due to their lack of size/strength.

But the team will be done tanking whenever the young players figure it out and start to excel, If that doesn't happen then we likely aren't going anywhere any time soon and will likely be rebuild for years to come.

When you look to build your team based off D prospects and goaltending, which is currently how we are set up since we are loaded in U-24 blueliners/goalies but who knows just what the hell we actually have in this group as it could go in any direction at this stage.

It would help if the Habs didn’t pick the 1OA who is now the worst trending 1OA in over two decades with the first year rebuild pick and didn’t skip over the (statistically) incredible Kucherov-like prospect with the second year rebuild pick.

Call me crazy but I think that might have something to do with it.

It would very likely help the fans since Cooley putting up points with some flashy plays would get fans excited to some degree and what Michkov is doing in the KHL is pretty sick so of course fans would be thrilled if we had him in our system.

that said it doesn't mean much since with prospects it's always about progress or lack of so you have to go year to year and see who is stepping up and who isn't and then readjust your expectations either higher or lower based off what you saw over the course of a full season.

Reinbacher could be the next Weber or a nothing burger, it's so early that it's impossible to know what these kids will turn into but of course when you get injured and have 1 empty net goal in 5 games it's not going to look pretty and fans might start to become concerned as it's compounded when Slaf struggles to produce in the NHL. Of course it doesn't mean Slaf won't turn into a monster in a few years as look at KK, things just take time. They either made the right picks or they didn't and if they did, great for us and if they didn't then Molson just wasted more time and money.

Its just further proof that fans dont have the necessary patience for the rebuild and that they have irrealist expectations for prospects and draft pick.

Apart from the Bedard and McDavid that requires extreme luck, its always a long and painful process. Its an extremely high price to pay to suck a full season for a 4-7OV pick, even for a 25% chance at 1st OV.

welll said!

Definately most of the fan have been.payient and will be
But doesn't mean you can't criticize bad play
I've notice some backstops on alot of the players on the team

I don't often go in the GDT or PGT but when you see fans freaking out over this play or that play and calling the players all kinds of names and getting all worked up, it's just so pointless as the team was one of the worst teams in the NHL for the past 2 years, that isn't going to change overnight unless several young players all take a big step at the same time.

To me if this team gets anyone that worked up I just don't see the point, like I would do something different because why get worked up when you know the team sucks and are rebuilding and now we wait for the next few years to see if they can draft/develop or not.

I was one of them, boy were we wrong. Cannot believe that people just assume whatever players we get should just be better than the rest of the league or that they can just be picked up anywhere. It has been proven over and over again to get better you must draft better, to draft better you must suck for a while. And yet we whine..... Plus the internet gives us access to every other whiner and pretty soon we have an unfulfilling circle jerk.

Well said!

I think they could if they were drafting the right players, I really do. But our PTSD of failed first round gems really does throw up a guard.

Yea you need to draft the right players, I can see why they picked Slaf, Mesar, Reinbacher, and I can see why there's a lot of concern as all of them have had their ups and downs and for such high picks for 2 of the 3, that is not what you want to see but it doesn't mean they won't be the right picks in time. I have my doubts but we'll see.

Just finished watching that...that...mess! wow are they ever terrible,looks like they haven't a clue what they should be doing. Seems they are worse than last season and worse than under Ducharme. But why is Marty looking so pissed off? losing is the goal right?or is he trying to get into acting?lol.

A very young and inexperienced team is often going to go through lots of ups and downs. Fans seemed very happy with their play vs Vegas (I only saw a little) but there's a reason why they have been one of the worst teams in the NHL in the last 2 years. MSL has his work cut out for him, of course he's going to be upset at losing as all players want to win games.

 

[beowulf]

Well it's 4 years later lol, way to flex

But it would appear that it's run it's course yeah


It absolutely disgusts me any time you use the word "we" lol

I didn't like the move from the start, the contract and it's length in particular along with injuries. Kept being told that is what a consistent 20+ goal scorer who is physical gets..well he hit 20 once and just barely and has been nothing special for most of the 4 years or so on the team.

 

[Jaynki]

The topic is whether Habs fans are to blame for being less than enthusiastic right now.

Naturally a huge contingent of Habs fans would rather take a bullet to the heart than accept any criticism of the Habs organization or whoever is the current Habs GM, so it naturally follows they will attack other fans for not being sufficiently encouraged and ecstatic for the perceived future of the organization at this current moment. Dach injured, Slaf not producing, Suzuki not showing another level, Newhook not producing, Anderson in the gutter. It's not a particularly good feeling at this time -- and we look at the prospect pool and there's Roy who is a rookie in the AHL doing rookie things, Hutson who's light's out, and Reinbacher who just came back from injury.

I think every fanbase can handle a rebuild if there is light at the end of the tunnel. Even if Hutson turns out as good as can be expected (genuine PMD), we're still nowhere close to have exit velocity from the orbit of Crap Team to Winning Team. I'd be a lot more zen about non-stop losing and shameful matches if it seemed we were on the right track as an organization. So far, at best, you can say it's TBD.

On this topic, its tough to disagree. You are fun to read.

 

[26Mats]

Flash news: Nobody really wants a rebuild. Nobody. Rebuilds suck. You know when it starts but you don't know if the rebuilding phase will need many resets. It may take 4 years or 15 years. You need great drafting skill and luck..quite a bit of it actually. You need lottery luck and good draft classes (some years are a lot weaker than others).

So no fan really asks for a rebuild. It's something that we end up having no choice to accept because the team , after years of terrible management, becomes filled with overrated and overpaid assets. You may ask us to accept it but don't ask us to like it.

Rebuilds are not fun. They are painful and full of setbacks.
Pain can be reduced when the team drafts a generational /franchise player but we haven't done that yet.

Maybe it's tougher for older fans like me though.

Best thing I can tell you is to enjoy the young guys - both Hughes' moves to acquire them, and the ups and downs of their growth.

It would have been nice psychologically for us to have drafted the player who we were told was a close 2nd behind Bedard in talent. But that's only psychological. Reinbacher may be the better pick and we may be building that team step by step. But it is a process and patience is needed.

 

[Runner77]

It has been proven over and over again to get better you must draft better, to draft better you must suck for a while.

To draft better, don’t we also need better scouts? Where are they? Not here yet, it looks like.

The less qualified your scouting contingent is, the more drafts and picks you need to get where you want to go. What’s it going to take?

 

[WeThreeKings]

To draft better, don’t we also need better scouts? Where are they? Not here yet, it looks like.

The less qualified your scouting contingent is, the more drafts and picks you need to get where you want to go. What’s it going to take?

I guess that depends on whether you think Beck, Hutson, Engstrom, Slafkovsky, Mesar, Rohrer, Guindon, Davidson, Tourigny, Reinbacher, Fowler, Konyushkov, Miller, Eriksson and Volokhin are bad picks.

And that Mailloux, Kidney, Kapanen, Trudeau, Roy, Simoneau, Guhle, Tucn, Mysak, Biondi, Farrell, Dobes, Caufield, Struble, Norlinder, RHP, Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, and Harris are bad picks.

 

[Runner77]

I guess that depends on whether you think Beck, Hutson, Engstrom, Slafkovsky, Mesar, Rohrer, Guindon, Davidson, Tourigny, Reinbacher, Fowler, Konyushkov, Miller, Eriksson and Volokhin are bad picks.

And that Mailloux, Kidney, Kapanen, Trudeau, Roy, Simoneau, Guhle, Tucn, Mysak, Biondi, Farrell, Dobes, Caufield, Struble, Norlinder, RHP, Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, and Harris are bad picks.

Bobrov has a spotty record for early first round picks. Some of the players listed are from Timmins as head of scouting, which is not material for future drafts.

How many elite type players are we able to secure now that we’re in a rebuilding phase that begets early picks? I’m looking at top end prospects from early first round picks where the odds of getting a top shelf talent are supposed to be higher than any other point in the draft.

Do Bobrov’s recommendations while with the Rangers, provide you with confidence on upcoming drafts? He looks to me to be the weakest link from our management appointees. I’m not even sure how effective Lapointe might be but Bobrov does have a verifiable track record.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Bobrov has a spotty record for early first round picks. Some of the players listed are from Timmins as head of scouting, which is not material for future drafts.

How many elite type players are we able to secure now that we’re in a rebuilding phase that begets early picks? I’m looking at top end prospects from early first round picks where the odds of getting a top shelf talent are supposed to be higher than any other point in the draft.

Do Bobrov’s recommendations while with the Rangers, provide you with confidence on upcoming drafts? He looks to me to be the weakest link from our management appointees. I’m not even sure how effective Lapointe might be but Bobrov does have a verifiable track record.

Some were Timmins drafts but the large contingent of scouts from those drafts are still here. There's two spotty picks at the top end of the draft for Bobrov, but he also wasn't the head scout in New York, so it's really hard to say who pulled what.

Blaming Bobrov or anyone for Lafreniere or Kakko struggling is just not an exercise I'm interested in. No one was picking anyone else in those slots.

So if we look at solely the drafts under Hugo, we are far too early to know but we can at least say that with their picks, high and low.

Slafkovsky (one of 3 players picked in the top 10 currently playing in the NHL)

Mesar has 9 pts in 5 games
.
Beck nearly made the team last year and has proven to be a top faceoff and defensive center amongst prospects with a developing offense.

Lane Hutson had a historic season last year and has continued to be the most dominant player in college hockey.

Engstrom is a productive top pair defenseman in the SHL.

Vinzenz Rohrer is plying his craft in the NLA.

Cedrick Guindon one of the top point producers in the OHL.

Jared Davidson impressive camp and in the AHL.

Reinbacher is a top pairing defenseman in the NLA.

Jacob Fowler is the best goalie in the NCAA.

Xhekaj is a goon trying to find an NHL capable game.

Bogdan Konyushkov is authoring one of the best U23 defenseman seasons in KHL history.

Quentin Miller impressed in training camp and is putting up stellar numbers behind a terrible Q team.

Volokhin is one of the best goalies in the MHL.

Filip Eriksson is getting regular shifts in the SHL.

Now all these guys can bust but I'd say that the early returns on most of their picks from many different rounds indicate that maybe they should get some benefit of the doubt.

Want to know what the incredible scouting minds of the Tampa Bay Lightning did?

Brett Connolly 6th overall
Vladislav Namestnikov at 27th OA (over Kucherov)
Slater Koekkoek at 10th OA (over Vasy)
Jonathan Drouin at 3
Adam Erne at 33
Tony DeAngelo at 19
Mitchell Stephen's at 33
Matthew Spencer at 44
Brett Howden at 27
Labor Hajek at 37
Katchouk at 44
Cal Foote at 14
Nolan Foote at 27

The Tampa Bay Lightning live off their FA and late round picks. If they didn't dupe Bergevin on Drouin for Sergachev, and didn't have a 2nd 1st to grab Vasy, how does it look?

The truth is among all rebuilding teams and coveted scouting staffs. There's brutal misses. A lot of em. They just have to find enough hits.

Chytil at 21
Morgan Barron at 174
K'Andre Miller at 22
Lundkvist at 28
Braden Schneider at 19
Cuylle at 60.
Shesterkin at 118

 

[LaP]

I guess that depends on whether you think Beck, Hutson, Engstrom, Slafkovsky, Mesar, Rohrer, Guindon, Davidson, Tourigny, Reinbacher, Fowler, Konyushkov, Miller, Eriksson and Volokhin are bad picks.

And that Mailloux, Kidney, Kapanen, Trudeau, Roy, Simoneau, Guhle, Tucn, Mysak, Biondi, Farrell, Dobes, Caufield, Struble, Norlinder, RHP, Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, and Harris are bad picks.

They will all bust. All bust. All of them. The sky is falling. Everything burn. It's the end of time.

 

[Kimota]

Fans say they want a rebuild but they can't handle one. They will then throw excuses like yeah I want a rebuild but the team needs to win also. Why don't they draft McDavid each year? I wanted a rebuild but maybe for 10 games

They changed their minds on the rebuild when they saw our recent drafting. lol

 

[morhilane]

Some were Timmins drafts but the large contingent of scouts from those drafts are still here. There's two spotty picks at the top end of the draft for Bobrov, but he also wasn't the head scout in New York, so it's really hard to say who pulled what.

...

I feel like the draft selection targets changed since Churla left and Lapointe took his job (less or more) in 2021. Still a few "WTF" picks but not as many.

Last year had a lots of overagers because the Habs just can't handle that many prospects. Many won't be signed by default of just not having space soon.

 

[ReimanSum1908]

They changed their minds on the rebuild when they saw our recent drafting. lol

Everyone should understand that this, right here, is precisely the point.

I was absolutely thrilled to write off the last two years, operating under the notion that this team was going to draft quality talent, and, frankly, I don't care one wit for the way this season is spiralling.

The rage comes from those years, and the losses, being utterly pointless as we throw away draft picks on players like Slafkovsky and Reinbacher, squandering the rebuild window entirely, poised to become mired in mediocrity once again.

Everything would be beyond fine if we had Michkov waiting in the wings and Cooley running power players like a seasoned pro/burgeoning star at 19.

 

[Kimota]

I feel like the draft selection targets changed since Churla left and Lapointe took his job (less or more) in 2021. Still a few "WTF" picks but not as many.

Last year had a lots of overagers because the Habs just can't handle that many prospects. Many won't be signed by default of just not having space soon.

Bobrov is the biggest issue. Did you see the way he propped up Slaf?

 

[morhilane]

Bobrov is the biggest issue. Did you see the way he propped up Slaf?

Bobrov has the same position as Lapointe and he doesn't make the last call on who is taken. Gorton manage the pre-draft meetings and gather everyone's opinions to make the draft list(s) going by the previous two drafts Habs video.

 

[CHwest]

Everyone should understand that this, right here, is precisely the point.

I was absolutely thrilled to write off the last two years, operating under the notion that this team was going to draft quality talent, and, frankly, I don't care one wit for the way this season is spiralling.

The rage comes from those years, and the losses, being utterly pointless as we throw away draft picks on players like Slafkovsky and Reinbacher, squandering the rebuild window entirely, poised to become mired in mediocrity once again.

Everything would be beyond fine if we had Michkov waiting in the wings and Cooley running power players like a seasoned pro/burgeoning star at 19.

I'll maybe give you Cooley, Michkov has proven nothing.

 

[Kimota]

Bobrov has the same position as Lapointe and he doesn't make the last call on who is taken. Gorton manage the pre-draft meetings and gather everyone's opinions to make the draft list(s) going by the previous two drafts Habs video.

I'm saying the biggest issue is Bobrov, not Lapointe. Lapointe does not seem like a guy that has the charisma and drive and forcefullness to change opinions.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

1OA draftee in his second season is on pace for less than 20pts, is that an opinion or is it a fact?

Everyone here is aware that you are second-guessing the Habs selections. Every Hab fan is worried about those picks and hoping for the best. No one will know all that much about which pick was the right one for another few years. So why endlessly discuss it? Seems pointless, no?

 

[Runner77]

Some were Timmins drafts but the large contingent of scouts from those drafts are still here. There's two spotty picks at the top end of the draft for Bobrov, but he also wasn't the head scout in New York, so it's really hard to say who pulled what.

Blaming Bobrov or anyone for Lafreniere or Kakko struggling is just not an exercise I'm interested in. No one was picking anyone else in those slots.

So if we look at solely the drafts under Hugo, we are far too early to know but we can at least say that with their picks, high and low.

Slafkovsky (one of 3 players picked in the top 10 currently playing in the NHL)

Mesar has 9 pts in 5 games
.
Beck nearly made the team last year and has proven to be a top faceoff and defensive center amongst prospects with a developing offense.

Lane Hutson had a historic season last year and has continued to be the most dominant player in college hockey.

Engstrom is a productive top pair defenseman in the SHL.

Vinzenz Rohrer is plying his craft in the NLA.

Cedrick Guindon one of the top point producers in the OHL.

Jared Davidson impressive camp and in the AHL.

Reinbacher is a top pairing defenseman in the NLA.

Jacob Fowler is the best goalie in the NCAA.

Xhekaj is a goon trying to find an NHL capable game.

Bogdan Konyushkov is authoring one of the best U23 defenseman seasons in KHL history.

Quentin Miller impressed in training camp and is putting up stellar numbers behind a terrible Q team.

Volokhin is one of the best goalies in the MHL.

Filip Eriksson is getting regular shifts in the SHL.

Now all these guys can bust but I'd say that the early returns on most of their picks from many different rounds indicate that maybe they should get some benefit of the doubt.

Want to know what the incredible scouting minds of the Tampa Bay Lightning did?

Brett Connolly 6th overall
Vladislav Namestnikov at 27th OA (over Kucherov)
Slater Koekkoek at 10th OA (over Vasy)
Jonathan Drouin at 3
Adam Erne at 33
Tony DeAngelo at 19
Mitchell Stephen's at 33
Matthew Spencer at 44
Brett Howden at 27
Labor Hajek at 37
Katchouk at 44
Cal Foote at 14
Nolan Foote at 27

The Tampa Bay Lightning live off their FA and late round picks. If they didn't dupe Bergevin on Drouin for Sergachev, and didn't have a 2nd 1st to grab Vasy, how does it look?

The truth is among all rebuilding teams and coveted scouting staffs. There's brutal misses. A lot of em. They just have to find enough hits.

Chytil at 21
Morgan Barron at 174
K'Andre Miller at 22
Lundkvist at 28
Braden Schneider at 19
Cuylle at 60.
Shesterkin at 118

I’m more inclined to accept brutal misses, the later in the draft that they happen, like most fans.

While you state correctly that the Laf and Kakko picks were likely going to be made by other teams with those picks, I would submit that consensus is not always a good gauge. Case in point, who saw the Ducks take Carlsson over Fantilli? And yet almost everyone had Fantilli leaving the board with the 2nd pick.

Will the Ducks be proven right? I wouldn’t bet against them given their track record. That’s exactly the type of scouting and drafting I’d love to see the Habs have in place. I have a feeling that if the Habs had that 2nd pick, they might have opted for Fantilli but just speculation on my part.

Further, the vast majority of Habs draftees you have listed can be highly desirable middle six types or 2nd pairing or lower pairing D but very little have the potential to be elite type contributors. That’s exactly why we need those early picks to deliver elite players as it’s less than likely to happen on them the more you go past the first round.

Bobrov was the chief European scout for the Rangers but based on the accounts I read, he might as well been the head scout overall. He had a lot of influence at scouting meetings and his failed picks were his recommendations as far as I know.

However, even if we were to assume for a moment that Bobrov was just a European scout for NYR as you’re inferring, should he not at least have had an edge/ expertise/ better intel in respect of European prospects?

In 2017 and 2018, the Rangers held 5 first round picks. How did they fare?

Filip Chytil, Lias Andersson, Vitali Kravtsov, Kaapo Kakko and Nils Lundkvist.

Were these players not all European and would they not have been under Bobrov’s responsibility in terms of their ultimate recommendation? None of these guys have been able to establish themselves to the level of their draft pedigree.

If a head of European scouting fails spectacularly with the evaluation of players from his territory and does so 5 times over with first round picks where the risk of failure is supposed to be the lowest in a draft, what makes him qualified to hold a most senior scouting position with the Habs?

My point stands — we need this scouting staff to deliver on prospects with a higher ceiling, prospects who can become top line players, top pairing D and starting goalies — exactly what you’re expecting to have a shot at with early picks. Are you sure Bobrov deserves our trust just because he’s been mostly amassing mid to depth level players that are desirable but who are not elite?

We’re not short of mid to depth level types, we need elite players with high end offence. Are you sure you want to bet on the Euros that Bobrov has caused the Habs to draft with their early picks while at the helm with the Habs, namely Slaf and Reinbacher? His track record with Euros says to bet against him.

 

[Cournoyer12]

3-4 more years of this. I'll be dead before we make the playoffs again.

You said it brother….. Devoted Habs fan since 68 at least we saw the salad years eh!

 

[Runner77]

Bobrov has the same position as Lapointe and he doesn't make the last call on who is taken. Gorton manage the pre-draft meetings and gather everyone's opinions to make the draft list(s) going by the previous two drafts Habs video.

Bobrov was not chief scout in New York and his recommendations appeared to carry more weight than any other scouting appointee in their organization.

Of course, no scouting director ever makes the last call for any NHL team. However, those to whom they report typically will not have had the viewings and exposure to those prospects that are ultimately recommended and ranked, and thus they will tend to endorse the recommendations of a senior scout.

Given how Bobrov behaves in meetings, we know that he can be very convincing. Do you really believe that Lapointe is anywhere close to Bobrov in terms of influence on the final decisions taken? Gorton gave Bobrov a lot of leeway in terms of the ultimate recommendations made in New York. Why would it be any different now? We already know how much power Bobrov can wield without owning an absolute, highest ranking title to a job.

I respectfully submit that Bobrov is the acting senior scouting director with the Habs even if on paper, his responsibility and authority appear to be shared with Lapointe.

 

[ReimanSum1908]

I'll maybe give you Cooley, Michkov has proven nothing.

Michkov has been a dominant force in the KH: at 19, the best player on the team that actually gave him a chance to play, and set records for a D-1 season in that league.

He is arguably the best prospect in the world, considering the graduation of Bedard.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It's good of you to keep reminding everyone about your opinion...

I know right, it's so bizarre that someone would post their opinion on an internet forum.

 

[CHwest]

Michkov has been a dominant force in the KH: at 19, the best player on the team that actually gave him a chance to play, and set records for a D-1 season in that league.

He is arguably the best prospect in the world, considering the graduation of Bedard.

Well Mesar is also "arguably" the best prospect in the world. Doesn't mean crap until they play in the show.