GDT: Habs @ Leafs - 7pm

[CDN24]

We don't have to buy them any more.
Teams do need to dress a minimum number of players with a certain number of NHL games played.

Some cities- Mtl for one season ticket holders must buy the preseason games too.
I think its min of 8 players with either 30 games last year, 100 total NHL games (50 for goalies) or 1st round picks from the most recent draft. So that Habs lineup last night had Armia, Evans, Pitlick, Montenbault, and wideman who meet the 30 game rule from last year. Kevin Poulin other G who has 50 NHL games on the nose although his last one was in 2014-15 and the 2 1st rounds picks from this year. The bare minimum.

 

[ACC1224]

Some cities- Mtl for one season ticket holders must buy the preseason games too.
I think its min of 8 players with either 30 games last year, 100 total NHL games (50 for goalies) or 1st round picks from the most recent draft. So that Habs lineup last night had Armia, Evans, Pitlick, Montenbault, and wideman who meet the 30 game rule from last year. Kevin Poulin other G who has 50 NHL games on the nose although his last one was in 2014-15 and the 2 1st rounds picks from this year. The bare minimum.

Yes we used to buy them here as well but that stopped before COVID. Not sure why they stopped, it's not like we had any choice. We just threw the tickets away, no one ever wanted them.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

GDT: - Around the League - 2021/22 PART IV

34 points in 31 games for Mason Marchment.

forums.hfboards.com

I'm still recovering from this attack . All I did was say nice game Durzi, then indirectly praised Dubas for the pick by saying don't trade any more guys we drafted (as in they will probably become good players).

 

[CDN24]

Yes we used to buy them here as well but that stopped before COVID. Not sure why they stopped, it's not like we had any choice. We just threw the tickets away, no one ever wanted them.

Same in Mtl. When I lived there my work had 2 sets, we would generally give them to staff with young kids. Maybe the last game is decent but other than that unless you are a diehard fan who knows every teams prospects and wants to see them- not worth the $$$

 

[Future]

Robertson looks like he could develop into a niche offensive player.

Maybe a full year in the AHL would give him the opportunity to develop the other skills for the NHL.

Doesn't seem very feisty though, which players like Gallagher and Marchand posses.

I mean, that’s not his game at all. He’s a scoring winger and people are expecting him to be some physical two-way grinder at the same time.

He’ll move the puck quickly, work hard, and put himself in positions where he can showcase his best asset and rip shots.

The criticism he gets is unbelievable to me. Not referring to your post specifically, but the general sentiment on this board. Similar to Liljegren, where he was constantly bashed because people had some image of him from a poor 17 game stretch he had as a 20 year old until he put a string of 40+ very good performances together last year.

He’s only going to improve with more NHL reps, gotta see the big picture.

 

[The Podium]

You were the first to bash Durzi how he'd get "shit on" here and no where close to Liljegren when I brought him up when he cracked Kings top 4 last year, now suddenly he fits your narrative Have to be kidding me.

Don't make me find the post and expose you. You were very adamant about your stance in it and that's putting things lightly.

Hunter is not a villain here I don't know why people have the need for him to be. He was a temporary character on our path to success that left more positives than he did negatives.

Bring up the post. He is garbage defensively and would get shit on here. He is not a fit for this team but that doesn’t mean he isn’t that caliber D.

Hunter left literally no positives

GDT: - Around the League - 2021/22 PART IV

34 points in 31 games for Mason Marchment.

forums.hfboards.com

I stand by that post. He isn’t the D we need at all, which is why I don’t care he isn’t part of this organization. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t hold similar value as our guys.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Bring up the post. He is garbage defensively and would get shit on here. He is not a fit for this team but that doesn’t mean he isn’t that caliber D.

He left literally no positives

Someone did above. There's nothing left to discuss. You are disqualified from objectively discussing this. Would be a total waste of time to engage.

 

[The Podium]

Someone did above. There's nothing left to discuss. You are disqualified from objectively discussing this. Would be a total waste of time to engage.

Why? Because I understand that fit doesn’t equal value…

The fact that Sandin used Durzi as a comparable is literally objective proof of my point.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

I'm still recovering from this attack . All I did was say nice game Durzi, then indirectly praised Dubas for the pick by saying don't trade any more guys we drafted (as in they will probably become good players).

I'm too nosy to not go see what post you talking about

 

[Beaumaris]

That means murrays positioning is good.

Exactly.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Why? Because I understand that fit doesn’t equal value…

The fact that Sandin used Durzi as a comparable is literally objective proof of my point.

This makes literally zero sense.

You made it clear your personal opinion was that Durzi is not the same caliber as Sandin and Lil. Fast forward to now, and to serve your purpose Durzi is conveniently the same caliber of Liljegren.

That is literally subjective proof.

While we're at it, saying things like "would get shit on here" while putting him in the same tier as Lil is a very odd way of talking about one of our best young players. I wouldn't think to describe other defencemen like that if I'm comparing them to Lils calibre regardless what the skillset difference is. If Durzi is the same calibre as Lil we will find a role for him to succeed in. The only reason you find yourself in this odd situation is because you were being subjective to begin.
__________________

Some of you make it hard to cheer for ex Leafs to do well

Fans like you want to complain about Durzi, but don’t actually want a D like Durzi. If you are going to complain, at least do it right.

^^ This is not an objective response to someone saying Durzi had a nice game and we shouldn't trade anyone else (because obviously they might be good too, nice pick Dubas). Everything from then to now is consistent with subjectivity.

Trying to be the boss of when it's okay or not okay to give some props to the Durzi pick based on what's most convenient for you is the definition of not objective.

We'll agree to disagree from here.

 

[kb]

As alleged Leafs fans, you'd think you would be in favour as many prospects hitting as possible, no matter who was in charge when they were drafted.

Bruised egos are a serious injury, and most can't recover because they keep reaggravating it.

 

[Havoc]

Bring up the post. He is garbage defensively and would get shit on here. He is not a fit for this team

I don't think an offensive d-man of Liljegrens calibre would get shit on here or be spoken about in this manner.

The pure offensive, worse defensively version of Liljegrens tier sounds like the perfect partner for Liljegren lol, and probably puts up too many points for us to really care about the defensive issues seeing as Liljegrens xGF is already pretty elite.

 

[Shooter2x]

Late round picks take 4-5 years to even skim their NHL potential.

Hard to credit/criticize Dubas’ draft considering he’s only been around for that long. The majority of his draft picks are still too recently drafted to make an impact with the big club.

What we do know for certain, in the 3 drafts with Hunter in that position, this is the list of NHL players selected by the Toronto Maple Leafs outside the 1st round:

2015 - Dermott
2016 - Brooks, Grundstrom
2017 -

A bottom pairing D, a tweener NHLer, bottom 6 winger

In fact, I’m Dubas’ first draft alone, he hit on a Lilly caliber D in Durzi outside round 1 already. Who knows how other promising prospects turn out, but the Leafs under Dubas have already exceeded Hunters results on that one hit.

Dubas worked the phones hard to split the 1st rounders up into multiple picks that eventually chose Dermott. Not that it matters in 2022 anymore but we don't even know, and there's no reports to suggest for the majority of picks, what fraction were Dubas' influence, what were Hunters or where they both agreed or where they disagreed fully.

You can give an edge to Hunter as having the most responsibility since there does exist reports he had autonomy over the drafts but not everyone would be okay with that because then you'd have to give him full credit over Marner. If we don't give him full credit over Marner then you have to give Dubas some credit for the Dermott pick you singled out as bad..........

...........That's a really messy topic I'm not willing to start, but since you hate Hunter so much maybe you can take the lead there to show why all the bad picks are solely on Hunter and why he would never learn from them and eventually start getting some late round hits. I mean, even today all he would need is to produce ONE bottom 6 guy from 2018-2022 to be considered an internal competition success for depth it seems. If you want the exhausting task of proving he would fail to do this, I can't stop you.

Hunter is part of the transition from us going from a joke club to a respected club, fought for Marner and believed in the Liljegren pick even though Lil was dropping, so I have no problems with him. His efforts in his short time here are enough for me to see him as a good guy in our history books. We can't just pretend he failed in an alternative universe he became GM over Dubas, especially when he's never had full autonomy over the GM title itself like Dubas, and I don't see why anyone would care to show why that alternative universe of failure would exist anyways.

 

[Rude Dog]

I mean, that’s not his game at all. He’s a scoring winger and people are expecting him to be some physical two-way grinder at the same time.

He’ll move the puck quickly, work hard, and put himself in positions where he can showcase his best asset and rip shots.

The criticism he gets is unbelievable to me. Not referring to your post specifically, but the general sentiment on this board. Similar to Liljegren, where he was constantly bashed because people had some image of him from a poor 17 game stretch he had as a 20 year old until he put a string of 40+ very good performances together last year.

He’s only going to improve with more NHL reps, gotta see the big picture.

Couldn't agree more. There weren't many of us that could see past the hate on Lilegren early on (including pretty much every media guy). Suddenly he is all right. Robertson had a very serious leg injury last year, yet came back and produced ppg in the AHL last year. How long did it take Stamkos to recover from that injury? Robertson has played roughly 60 games in total over the last few years. Yes, likely better to start the season in the AHL, but the kid is coming. He is too determined not to. Give the kid a break. Loves the game. Huge heart and will score lots of goals for this team.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I think Lilly was a great pick (Hunters only good pick outside of home a fairly easy pick in Marner at 4th overall). Dubas is a mediocre GM with a penchant for gambling on high risk "fixes" (that don't pan out) and Knies hasn't shown anything at the pro-level (not sure Dubas is in charge of the draft the way Hunter was; credit for Knies likely belongs to someone else, not Dubas).

The "everyone in anti or pro Dubas" dichotomy you guys have going on is very funny. One side of that is demonstrably pettier than the other, so it's very funny to see those people weepy over others being "petty" when the shoe is on the other foot.

Hunter was basically the head of the scouting department along with Morrison iirc. Dubas is the GM and would defer to Lilly and now Wes Clark who are/were the heads of the scouting department. The credit for Knies would've gone to them as Dubas likely didn't scout him outside of maybe seeing some tape. In the draft video, he asked whether or not he he should trade down and acquire more picks and the scouts said Knies was too good to pass on.

Where you would credit the GM would be in the direction in which the scouts will look for. In Dubas' case, he asks them to look for the most skilled and highest IQ players regardless of size. In the case of someone like Burke, he wanted big, truculent players. So that's who the scouts were looking for.

Hunter had that 1st draft where he was drafting skilled players and then went the opposite direction and drafted a bunch of behemoths that weren't very good at any level. So far with Dubas' drafts, he has had several players each year excelling at each of their respected levels for example, guys like Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Hirvonen, Holmberg. And none of these guys were first round picks.

I would be pissed if we're only drafting 1 NHL player every 3 years. You should be able to land at least 1 every year. Hunters drafting is the biggest reason the Marlies have sucked the last few years (that and coach Moore) and why we haven't had any guys coming up and making an impact in supporting or depth roles.

 

[The Podium]

This makes literally zero sense.

You made it clear your personal opinion was that Durzi is not the same caliber as Sandin and Lil. Fast forward to now, and to serve your purpose Durzi is conveniently the same caliber of Liljegren.

That is literally subjective proof.

While we're at it, saying things like "would get shit on here" while putting him in the same tier as Lil is a very odd way of talking about one of our best young players. I wouldn't think to describe other defencemen like that if I'm comparing them to Lils calibre regardless what the skillset difference is. If Durzi is the same calibre as Lil we will find a role for him to succeed in. The only reason you find yourself in this odd situation is because you were being subjective to begin.
__________________




^^ This is not an objective response to someone saying Durzi had a nice game and we shouldn't trade anyone else (because obviously they might be good too, nice pick Dubas). Everything from then to now is consistent with subjectivity.

Trying to be the boss of when it's okay or not okay to give some props to the Durzi pick based on what's most convenient for you is the definition of not objective.

We'll agree to disagree from here.

I clearly don’t like Durzi the player, and like our long history of other purely offensive players in this market (Nylander, Kessel, Gardiner, Kaberle, etc.) he would get eaten alive in this market.

Just because I don’t like players of this ilk, nor does the majority of Leafs nation, doesn’t mean I don’t believe he has value around the league.

Would you want John Klingberg or a healthy Jake Muzzin? Same value, same caliber player, but Klingberg isn’t the type of player this team needs or wants.

 

[Shooter2x]

Bunting Matthews Marner
Malgin Tavares Jarnkrok
Robertson Holmberg Nylander
Gaydette Kampf NAK

Hunter was basically the head of the scouting department along with Morrison iirc. Dubas is the GM and would defer to Lilly and now Wes Clark who are/were the heads of the scouting department. The credit for Knies would've gone to them as Dubas likely didn't scout him outside of maybe seeing some tape. In the draft video, he asked whether or not he he should trade down and acquire more picks and the scouts said Knies was too good to pass on.

Where you would credit the GM would be in the direction in which the scouts will look for. In Dubas' case, he asks them to look for the most skilled and highest IQ players regardless of size. In the case of someone like Burke, he wanted big, truculent players. So that's who the scouts were looking for.

Hunter had that 1st draft where he was drafting skilled players and then went the opposite direction and drafted a bunch of behemoths that weren't very good at any level. So far with Dubas' drafts, he has had several players each year excelling at each of their respected levels for example, guys like Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Hirvonen, Holmberg. And none of these guys were first round picks.

I would be pissed if we're only drafting 1 NHL player every 3 years. You should be able to land at least 1 every year. Hunters drafting is the biggest reason the Marlies have sucked the last few years (that and coach Moore) and why we haven't had any guys coming up and making an impact in supporting or depth roles.

I said 1 impact player every 3 years, not 1 NHL player. Depth players are more or less interchangeable in todays game as shown by 66% of our bottom 6 guaranteed to be created via UFA. There is literally nothing wrong with a GM who can only hit in the 1st round and is good at doing so especially when your core is already set and full of stars. That's all I was showing. 1st round hits is where you want your hits to happen. Late round depth players are very easy to obtain when needed. You are not going to choose a GM who has higher % hits in late round picks but lower % hits in the first round. You want the GM whose going to pick the (one of the*) high ceiling guy correctly out of all the options.

And I said 1 in 3 to make Hunter error prone. I was just being fair. Pretty stupid if I say he hits on every 1st rounder moving forward just like how it's stupid to think he would never improve (in later rounds). I don't know if he would have or haven't. But everyone at least established he's good in the 1st round.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

We don't draft in the 1st round. That is proof Hunter would have sucked

 

[Shooter2x]

We don't draft in the 1st round. That is proof Hunter would have sucked

I do like the creativity of hating both hunter and dubas in one short line, but my energy is spent on this topic. I'm outtttt

 

[IPS]

We'll agree to disagree from here.

I don't think you have to agree to anything.

You're consistent, he's not.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I said 1 impact player every 3 years, not 1 NHL player. Depth players are more or less interchangeable in todays game as shown by 66% of our bottom 6 guaranteed to be created via UFA. There is literally nothing wrong with a GM who can only hit in the 1st round and is good at doing so especially when your core is already set and full of stars. That's all I was showing. 1st round hits is where you want your hits to happen. Late round depth players are very easy to obtain when needed. You are not going to choose a GM who has higher % hits in late round picks but lower % hits in the first round. You want the GM whose going to pick the (one of the*) high ceiling guy correctly out of all the options.

And I said 1 in 3 to make Hunter error prone. I was just being fair. Pretty stupid if I say he hits on every 1st rounder moving forward just like how it's stupid to think he would never improve (in later rounds). I don't know if he would have or haven't. But everyone at least established he's good in the 1st round.

I agree he did great in the 1st round. I was ecstatic about both those picks but you need to be able to hit on picks outside of the 1st round. That's why our farm was bad the 1st few years of Dubas' time as GM and after losing guys like Kapanen, Johnsson and Kadri, we had no young players challenging for those spots.

Compare that to now when we have several guys in camp like Holmberg, Robertson, Abbruzese who are challenging for spots and were only drafted a few years ago. Plus Knies late in the year. Even if these guys don't make the Leafs out of camp, The Marlies should be looking pretty strong these next few years. Dubas has traded a few 1st rounders so we haven't been drafting Liljegren level players but we would all love for that to be the case. Amirov is a really good prospect who ran into a serious health concern but would love to get more talent like him coming.

Hitting on later picks is the reason teams like Detroit was so successful for so long and same with Tampa. Detroit was getting guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg in later rounds to replace aged out Yzermans and Shanahans etc. Tampa was drafting guys like Kucherov, Point, Palat, Killorn, cirelli etc. outside of the 1st round.

Hunter wasted a lot of picks on guys with size that had not much else to offer. Dubas has been drafting for skill and we have a much deeper pool for it even though we have only drafted in the 1st round twice in his tenure.

 

[conFABulator]

Yes, but those 2 forwards were veterans.

True. I guess I focused on the wrong part of your post... the part that implied that Benn, Mete and Dahlstrom were projected to be in our Top 6 this year

 

[DopeyFish]

are people really trying to use liljegren as some sort of "hunter is the best" gotcha?

liljegren was the near unanimous projected first overall pick for 2017 at the moment Matthews was drafted in 2016. the sentiment on this boards when matthews was selected was "now let's get liljegren next year" he fell to 17th largely because he only played a handful of games in his draft year due to mono... and if people don't know dubas enough, he *loves* those type of added value players. he didn't fall due to character or his skill, only lack of exposure due to illness.

if he notices players that are falling/being ignored due to instances that are mostly uncontrolled issues, he will look into them even more because it's likely an opportunity.

 

[tp71]

Or the scoring touch isn't quite there.

No. It means hes square to the puck and has good positioning. You want to know why Belfour was so damned good? He was always square to the puck and had good positioning. Literally the best thing about him was his positioning. If you want to say otherwise that's fine, but you haven't the slightest clue.