Confirmed with Link: Guentzel's rights traded to Tampa for 25 3rd

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Daeavorn

livin' that no caps life
Oct 8, 2019
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Raleigh, NC
You know which teams aren't cautious about aging curves? The ones that load up and win the Cup on the backs of great players in their prime. The teams that don't give a shit about 6 years from now if it means loading up for the next 4.
We will never be able to win like bigger markets win. The way we win is having a solid core with good depth and great defense. We will have to develop more top line talent ourselves. You are kidding yourself if you think that will change.
 

bleedgreen

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Dec 8, 2003
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We have plenty of depth, and under the Dundon regime we tend to excel in this area because building out the margins is really where moneypuck and fancystats really excels. We are really good at getting every ounce out of marginal pieces. Our biggest weakness has always been getting that elite level offensive skill that makes us deadly up front and allows that depth to be more impactful as opposing teams have to load up to stop our top line allowing our depth to take over.

You have to pay to bring in that top talent. You can't moneypuck that elite talent. There will always be a team willing to pay market rates for elite talent, you can't squeeze them. And that is where we struggle badly in this league. We are always looking to win the negotiation, we always have to squeeze everyone for whatever we can get. And those players always go elsewhere and we are left wondering why we struggle in the playoffs when we go up against legitimate contenders.
I agree our tactics don’t mesh well with expensive contracts and vets. That’s why they went after Kk hard though, right? They’ll spend the money on the younger guys and he aggressive about it. Makes you feel the only way we get elite talent is drafting it or getting lucky having the right assets when an Eichel trade pops up.

I’d like to think the borg learns from its experiences. They can get better at this.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

Former TheRillestPaulFenton; Harverd Alum
Jun 30, 2011
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At the time I said I would only like the Guentzel trade if he extended. You only make that trade giving up those pieces if you extend him. And now that he is gone, it's borderline one of the worst trades we've made in a while.

Maybe. It's quite possible that the young guys they traded only pan out as depth pieces. Most of the time, that's the best-case scenario for deadline packages.

The market for elite talent isn’t even out of whack.

Also reportedly nickel and diming someone when their ask seems completely reasonable isn’t “showing caution”, it’s being f***ing stupid.

I don't think they were nickel-and-diming. Apparently they were willing to pay market value. Guentzel just chose elsewhere. It happens.
 
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Big Daddy Cane

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At the time I said I would only like the Guentzel trade if he extended. You only make that trade giving up those pieces if you extend him. And now that he is gone, it's borderline one of the worst trades we've made in a while.

You sure about that?

If he extends this could border on a fleecing of a trade

As a rental, completely fair.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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At the time I said I would only like the Guentzel trade if he extended. You only make that trade giving up those pieces if you extend him. And now that he is gone, it's borderline one of the worst trades we've made in a while.
Meh. It's part of the game when making deadline deals. You do it knowing the guy may leave after the season. What they gave up is typical of a deadline deal with no extension.

No deadline trade is a good one unless the team wins it all. It's why the Canes have stayed away from true rentals all these years and were more interested in guys with Term (Skjei, Trocheck, Meier, etc...).
 

bleedgreen

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And how, yet again.

You’re right that the focus has been on the perceived “swings and misses” and not the fact that it has been the very ruthless efficiency that you’re getting mad about that has consistently gotten us the “at bats” in the first place.

And yet, they aren’t above criticism and I agree that Dundon’s negotiation tactics probably have gotten in the way of good will on more than one occasion. I don’t doubt that “f*** that guy” has been an informal reason for talks breaking down at least once (perhaps even with Waddell). The Forslund thing still doesn’t sit right with me 4 years later; the rounding error that means keeping one of the most important figures happy and in the fold shows how ruthless the efficiency model is. It’s not how Mark Cuban or Jerry Jones would handle things, that’s for sure.

I’d like to think there’s room for risk averse efficiency and big swings, and that feels like a dial the Borg is still trying to fine tune. But I’m not that broken up about it because I’m with you - re-signing never felt likely, and frankly, may not be prudent. And certainly lamenting the idiots in the front office or whatever isn’t a commensurate response. Disappointment I get - consistent over the top anger at the front office remains excessive.
Well said overall. On the prudent note, it’s hard to get too upset about not paying Jake at 37. There’s some silver linings here. I agree with them about these contracts, I just also agree with the concept that if your group has chemistry and a shot at it sometimes you have to bite the bullet and pay people what you’d rather not pay them. I don’t think it matters with Jake, I don’t think he was meant for us.

I hate that we gave up the prospects but if it’s a lesson learned then maybe it was worth it. That’s the cost of those moves. We gave up way more than I’ve seen in a long time, but it’s true there was no first and it wasn’t our best guys.
 

Justicebork

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Jul 13, 2022
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The JG saga has united us around the idea that trading for a rental is actually a horrible idea because our PP might take a 10 day dirt nap every Spring regardless and our front office is too incompetent to sign players who have waited 8 years to get to UFA and had no control over being traded here in the first place. We are probably more united than we were on July 1 2006, in fact.

Sorry, the level of snark around here today has made me snarky. :cool:
 

Blueline Bomber

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I don't think they were nickel-and-diming. Apparently they were willing to pay market value. Guentzel just chose elsewhere. It happens.

They were willing to pay market value...apparently well after Guentzel asked for it and spent the meantime trying to get him below market value.

That's not "Guentzel choosing elsewhere." That's Carolina souring the negotiations, basically driving Guentzel to choose elsewhere.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

Former TheRillestPaulFenton; Harverd Alum
Jun 30, 2011
10,675
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Raleigh and Chapel Hill, NC
The JG saga has united us around the idea that trading for a rental is actually a horrible idea because our PP might take a 10 day dirt nap every Spring regardless and our front office is too incompetent to sign players who have waited 8 years to get to UFA and had no control over being traded here in the first place. We are probably more united than we were on July 1 2006, in fact.

Sorry, the level of snark around here today has made me snarky. :cool:

I'm not on that boat, sorry. Sometimes taking a chance on a rental makes sense when you have a bunch of pending UFAs and there's going to be a bunch of creative destruction and retooling to the team regardless of what happens.
 

Justicebork

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Jul 13, 2022
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That trade was a good one. It was the right time to go for it and they didn’t have to give a legit top prospect or a 1st (ultimately) to get him. The outcome of the season and contract negotiation is largely irrelevant to the thought process behind it. Don’t revise history because you’re mad that he didn’t sign.
You and I agree 100%. I'm commenting on what I see as some irrational views being thrown around here today.
 
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Svechhammer

THIS is hockey?
Jun 8, 2017
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They were willing to pay market value...apparently well after Guentzel asked for it and spent the meantime trying to get him below market value.

That's not "Guentzel choosing elsewhere." That's Carolina souring the negotiations, basically driving Guentzel to choose elsewhere.
Bingo

If what is reported is true and we played a stupid game to save what a reported $250k per year for Guentzel before meeting his ask yesterday, our front office deserved to be ridiculed.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

Former TheRillestPaulFenton; Harverd Alum
Jun 30, 2011
10,675
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Raleigh and Chapel Hill, NC
That trade was a good one. It was the right time to go for it and they didn’t have to give a legit top prospect or a 1st (ultimately) to get him. The outcome of the season and contract negotiation is largely irrelevant to the thought process behind it. Don’t revise history because you’re mad that he didn’t sign.

People on Twitter and on these boards are so glum sometimes and don't bother to even go back and remember history from two seasons back. We have an example of a team who traded two first rounders, Owen Tippett, and a bunch of their depth for rentals, failed to make the ECF, and had all of their acquisitions walk on them. That was the Florida Panthers. They won it all two seasons later. The Guentzel trade didn't even place a quarter of the dent that Florida's all-in push did.
 

Svechhammer

THIS is hockey?
Jun 8, 2017
24,563
90,086
People on Twitter and on these boards are so glum sometimes and don't bother to even go back and remember history from two seasons back. We have an example of a team who traded two first rounders, Owen Tippett, and a bunch of their depth for rentals, failed to make the ECF, and had all of their acquisitions walk on them. That was the Florida Panthers. They won it all two seasons later.
Packaging a major trade for Tkachuk and extending him got Florida to where they are. So let me know when the Canes do that.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

Former TheRillestPaulFenton; Harverd Alum
Jun 30, 2011
10,675
24,009
Raleigh and Chapel Hill, NC
Packaging a major trade for Tkachuk and extending him got Florida to where they are. So let me know when the Canes do that.

Carolina's offer for Tkachuk was far better than Florida's in hindsight. Calgary's management group at the time was a myopic, panicky, and short-sighted group who were clinging hard to an idea that they could still be cup-competitive. That's the variable that the Canes couldn't control in the Tkachuk sweepstakes. They will recover from that and inevitably there will be another star who gets disgruntled and requests a trade. Their farm system has developed to the point that they will have the package to pull it off this time. Just remember that it always takes two to tango.
 
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