Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Training Camp Begins

[Canuckle1970]

What would the generational talents throughout history be?

To me the generational talents in my lifetime have been Gretzky -> Lemieux -> Crosby -> McDavid. Jagr is a bit of an edge case, he probably deserves it but he was overshadowed a bit by Lemieux. It's crazy that he won 4 straight scoring titles but only one Hart trophy.

Bobby Orr, for sure. With his dynamic skating and scoring, he expanded the role of the defenseman like never before. He was the ultimate gamechanger, and a joy to watch.

 

[MS]

What would the generational talents throughout history be?

To me the generational talents in my lifetime have been Gretzky -> Lemieux -> Crosby -> McDavid. Jagr is a bit of an edge case, he probably deserves it but he was overshadowed a bit by Lemieux. It's crazy that he won 4 straight scoring titles but only one Hart trophy.

Hasek to me is unquestionably a generational talent. His run from 1993-2001 is the best goaltending run in NHL history and it isn't close to #2. The save % difference to the #2 guy in some years is up there with the difference to the #2 scorer from Gretzky in terms of absurdity.

I also don't see how Eric Lindros isn't a generational talent, even if his career flamed out due to injuries. The sport has never seen anything like him. Led the league in scoring/MVP at age 21 while being the physically terrifying player in the sport.

 

[sting101]

Drop Lindros to tier below and put Crosby up.

He’s absolutely generational. Without a doubt.

Ovechkin’s dominance over time should also be considered. That kind of longevity isn’t going to be seen for a long time.

Agree with Ovechkin and probably Jagr too as well as Howe Richard Hull and Beliveau as these guys were game changers for a long long time that revolutionized hockey.

Broduer in the goalie class is close but i always struggle with how much that team was built for him to succeed vs how much better he was. Roy was pretty special too and changed how the game was played and created a wave of French Canadian goalies looking to emulate him. That cannot be overlooked through his volatility.

Hasek from 96 to 2002 was as impactful as almost anyone ever. His 97/98 and 98/99 seasons are both top 5 all time seasons ever by a player. Even internationally he was untouchable as he posted a .961 sv% and won the Czechs Olympic Gold. I guess the only reason i dont include him as generational is because he took awhile to get going and played in the dead puck era but if any 2 players knock on that door to join 4-99-66-87 and 97 it's Hasek and Ovechkin and i still struggle with McDavid just because he hasn't won and has fell flat so many times in playoff hockey.

Peter Forsberg had the worst luck of any player starting his career in 94 just as the dead puck era emerged in full swing. I like to bet if he was born 10yrs earlier he would be mentioned more amongst the greatest players or even if he played today.

Even though there was rule changes the 05-2017 seasons didnt really see an uptick in scoring league wide which between the Neuro issues marginalized Crosby's scoring. If he was a healthy prime aged player today he would be right with McDavid and MacKinnon scoring wise and bettering them head to head. The head to head series between a young Crosby and Ovechkin had to be the most dominated by 2 skaters i ever remember.

Anyway Crosby is easily in for me. More countries and players, better goalies, better trained with better defensive systems to stop players like him in a low scoring era until 2018 when he was 31 and he just cleaned up on everyone. Mem Cup Triple Gold Club 3 Stanley Cups 3 MVPs 2 Conn Smythe's and he missed 3 seasons 23 24 and 25 that would have likely been amongst his best individually.

 

[ChilliBilly]

What would the generational talents throughout history be?

To me the generational talents in my lifetime have been Gretzky -> Lemieux -> Crosby -> McDavid. Jagr is a bit of an edge case, he probably deserves it but he was overshadowed a bit by Lemieux. It's crazy that he won 4 straight scoring titles but only one Hart trophy.

As someone else pointed out, you have to have Orr on the list, and I would argue at the top of the list. 8 straight Norris trophies, and the only D man to ever win the scoring title.

As far as next level down, Selanne would come damn close. 76 goals as a rookie. 684 goals in his career, which is good for 12th all time. And he didn't start playing in the NHL until he was 23, he likely would have had another 100 goals if he started at 19 or 20.

 

[VanJack]

So Raty draws into the lineup between Garland and Hoglander. Really intrigued by that line.

A couple of slick, indefatigable wingers who battle hard along the wall. Can't think of a better opportunity for the kid.

 

[sting101]

Oh and since we're discussing generational players.

Bobby Orr is the greatest hockey player that ever lived. 5 Orrs would beat any 5 others without altering what they are/were and just adjusting for equipment.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Sakic I feel never gets any mention. Put up some phenomenal numbers during the dead puck era, and he still hit 100 points at age 37.

 

[Ernie]

As someone else pointed out, you have to have Orr on the list, and I would argue at the top of the list. 8 straight Norris trophies, and the only D man to ever win the scoring title.

As far as next level down, Selanne would come damn close. 76 goals as a rookie. 684 goals in his career, which is good for 12th all time. And he didn't start playing in the NHL until he was 23, he likely would have had another 100 goals if he started at 19 or 20.

Jagr was more dominant in his prime and while 76 goals as a rookie is impressive it probably had something to do with him being 23. He was on par with Sakic etc.

Jagr seems to be very underrated in this conversation - he had a higher level of scoring dominance over the next best player from 1995 - 2001 than McDavid has had over the past 6 seasons.

 

[TruGr1t]

There was an interesting bit in a recent CanucksArmy piece on the Abby back-end: apparently Brannstrom has played lots on the right and says he feels more comfortable there. (I posted about it in the Abbotsford thread.)

Interesting, missed that. They do need the help more on the right and you’d be pretty AHL stacked with Friedman and Brannstrom down that side.

Also lets you run Wolanin/Kudryatsev/Pettersson down the left side.

Hirose and/or Brisebois look like the odd guys out here to me, as you can rotate Woo/McWard on the right. It certainly looks like one of the LS guys will be on the off-side.

 

[Ernie]

Here's a neat stat: the Canucks have 5 of the top 50 guys in the NHL last season in ES scoring per 60 minutes.

Miller
Pettersson
Garland
Hoglander
Sprong

(in that order)

 

[krutovsdonut]

if you put lindros on the list it is by making allowance for his injuries, and then bure should be up there too. bure scored 50 at 21 and 59 at 29. without the knee injury he might easily have had ten 50 goals seasons, and without the strike they'd all be in a row. he was the most exciting player in the game for years.

sidebar on bure is that i remember watching footage of bobby orr during a tribute to him on cbc and then a few minutes later watching bure do the exact same moves on the ice.

and then there is the fact that, immeditely prior to the broken leg, mogilny was easily the best player in the nhl not named lemieux.

 

[Vector]

Mostly non-Canucks stuff with a little bit about Boeser (and Horvat) from Seravalli.

Ullmark:
-makes sense
-had a tonne of support in Boston
-NHL analytics struggle with isolating goaltending from structure

Utah HC:
-loud with nervous energy
-was some awkwardness with something totally new
-a lot of people there had never seen an NHL game
-thinks they are really well positioned for present and the middle
-too much mushy middle in the Western Conference gives Utah a very good chance to make the playoffs
-couldn't get protein shakes after games last season
-when Ryan Smith bought the team he asked the players what's important to them and they asked for a team chef, better hotels, better plane, etc.
-team motto is "No Excuses"

Boeser:
-hasn't heard anything about an extension but hasn't asked
-doesn't see Verhaeghe as a contract comp.; sees this as Florida using their No State Tax advantage
-Boeser is younger
-from Boeser's perspective, high interest in staying with the Canucks
-Canucks have made it really clear that they aren't going to pay for one moment in time; says they especially made this clear to Horvat

Shesterkin:
-Kevin Weeks report is 100% accurate
-8y/11m was rejected
-demand is something that starts with 12m
-Rangers have limits and doesn't believe they will enter into 12m

Penguins:
-stop losing in OT
-have to play with more pace; bottom three in the league in team speed
-Karlsson needs to have another year
-doesn't see a path to the playoffs for them

 

[LemonSauceD]

So Raty draws into the lineup between Garland and Hoglander. Really intrigued by that line.

A couple of slick, indefatigable wingers who battle hard along the wall. Can't think of a better opportunity for the kid.

This is the 3rd time I’ve seen this word used after finding out what it meant in as many days after previously never reading or hearing this word for all of my life.

Indefatigable. Indefatigable. Hmmm

 

[arttk]

Hasek to me is unquestionably a generational talent. His run from 1993-2001 is the best goaltending run in NHL history and it isn't close to #2. The save % difference to the #2 guy in some years is up there with the difference to the #2 scorer from Gretzky in terms of absurdity.

I also don't see how Eric Lindros isn't a generational talent, even if his career flamed out due to injuries. The sport has never seen anything like him. Led the league in scoring/MVP at age 21 while being the physically terrifying player in the sport.

Lindros is a true unicorn player. Dude would run over and destroy players and then score and assist like the best of them. He would be unstoppable in the modern era. There is nobody as mean and skilled as him before and after.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

There was a lot of concern a year ago when he was made Captain - too young, too much pressure will have a negative impact on his game. I believed he was up for the challenge, and he proved it with a fantastic season. Winning the Norris was the cherry on top.

He has wonderful skills, but what will make him a future Cup winner is his focused drive and his mental maturity, despite his youth. In that sense, he reminds me of a young Sidney Crosby.

Same.

And his mature, calm demeanour reminds me of Nicklas Lidstrom. His skating reminds me of Paul Coffey.

I realized during the off-season of 2022 that Quinn was going to turn out even more special than his draft position indicated in 2018. His defensive play the prior season hadn't been all that great so during the off-season he talked about working on his defensive game because he knew there were issues there.

Then what does he do when the new season begins?

He did exactly what he said he was going to do. He vastly improved his defensive play. There was more improvement than anyone dared to even hope there'd be. It was remarkable. The guy kept his word.

Then what does he do the next off-season?

He says he needs to work on his shot and scoring and what happens?

The little sonofabitch does exactly that and one year later he brings home the Norris Trophy.

Don't ever underestimate Quinn Hughes. He's still improving and I can't wait to see what happens this season beginning tonight.

 

[MS]

if you put lindros on the list it is by making allowance for his injuries, and then bure should be up there too. bure scored 50 at 21 and 59 at 29. without the knee injury he might easily have had ten 50 goals seasons, and without the strike they'd all be in a row. he was the most exciting player in the game for years.

sidebar on bure is that i remember watching footage of bobby orr during a tribute to him on cbc and then a few minutes later watching bure do the exact same moves on the ice.

and then there is the fact that, immeditely prior to the broken leg, mogilny was easily the best player in the nhl not named lemieux.

Prime Lindros >>>>>>>>> prime Bure, and prime Bure is my favourite player of all time.

Lindros is a true unicorn player. Dude would run over and destroy players and then score and assist like the best of them. He would be unstoppable in the modern era. There is nobody as mean and skilled as him before and after.

Yeah, Lindros was a freak. It's like if McDavid or MacKinnon also had all of Cam Neely's best qualities. There was never another player even close to him before or since in terms of mixing elite Art Ross-level skill with utter physical dominance.

It's a shame we didn't see a full healthy career because he might have won 5+ MVPs. He was basically at Jagr levels offensively at a younger age and set to dominate for the next decade when the injuries started post 1996.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Brandon Sutter.

Sorry, I thought you said foundational not generational.

 

[Ernie]

Mostly non-Canucks stuff with a little bit about Boeser (and Horvat)

Ullmark:
-makes sense
-had a tonne of support in Boston
-NHL analytics struggle with isolating goaltending from structure

Utah HC:
-loud with nervous energy
-was some awkwardness with something totally new
-a lot of people there had never seen an NHL game
-thinks they are really well positioned for present and the middle
-too much mushy middle in the Western Conference gives Utah a very good chance to make the playoffs
-couldn't get protein shakes after games last season
-when Ryan Smith bought the team he asked the players what's important to them and they asked for a team chef, better hotels, better plane, etc.
-team motto is "No Excuses"

Boeser:
-hasn't heard anything about an extension but hasn't asked
-doesn't see Verhaeghe as a contract comp.; sees this as Florida using their No State Tax advantage
-Boeser is younger
-from Boeser's perspective, high interest in staying with the Canucks
-Canucks have made it really clear that they aren't going to pay for one moment in time; says they especially made this clear to Horvat

Shesterkin:
-Kevin Weeks report is 100% accurate
-8y/11m was rejected
-demand is something that starts with 12m
-Rangers have limits and doesn't believe they will enter into 12m

Penguins:
-stop losing in OT
-have to play with more pace; bottom three in the league in team speed
-Karlsson needs to have another year
-doesn't see a path to the playoffs for them

Was this the entire show or just one guest?

 

[JT Milker]

Mostly non-Canucks stuff with a little bit about Boeser (and Horvat)

Ullmark:
-makes sense
-had a tonne of support in Boston
-NHL analytics struggle with isolating goaltending from structure

Utah HC:
-loud with nervous energy
-was some awkwardness with something totally new
-a lot of people there had never seen an NHL game
-thinks they are really well positioned for present and the middle
-too much mushy middle in the Western Conference gives Utah a very good chance to make the playoffs
-couldn't get protein shakes after games last season
-when Ryan Smith bought the team he asked the players what's important to them and they asked for a team chef, better hotels, better plane, etc.
-team motto is "No Excuses"

Boeser:
-hasn't heard anything about an extension but hasn't asked
-doesn't see Verhaeghe as a contract comp.; sees this as Florida using their No State Tax advantage
-Boeser is younger
-from Boeser's perspective, high interest in staying with the Canucks
-Canucks have made it really clear that they aren't going to pay for one moment in time; says they especially made this clear to Horvat

Shesterkin:
-Kevin Weeks report is 100% accurate
-8y/11m was rejected
-demand is something that starts with 12m
-Rangers have limits and doesn't believe they will enter into 12m

Penguins:
-stop losing in OT
-have to play with more pace; bottom three in the league in team speed
-Karlsson needs to have another year
-doesn't see a path to the playoffs for them

Will lmao if Shesterkin shits his pants again this season after a pretty forgettable 23-24. Shocked NYR would offer him $88M. Don’t think there’s a goalie in the league right now that I would make that offer to.

 

[Vector]

Was this the entire show or just one guest?

Just Seravalli.

 

[arttk]

Prime Lindros >>>>>>>>> prime Bure, and prime Bure is my favourite player of all time.




Yeah, Lindros was a freak. It's like if McDavid or MacKinnon also had all of Cam Neely's best qualities. There was never another player even close to him before or since in terms of mixing elite Art Ross-level skill with utter physical dominance.

It's a shame we didn't see a full healthy career because he might have won 5+ MVPs. He was basically at Jagr levels offensively at a younger age and set to dominate for the next decade when the injuries started post 1996.

Yeah dude was nuts, he enjoyed hurting people as much as he enjoyed scoring. He’ll f*** you up every way possible.

 

[ziploc]

Generational, to me, are players who have both dominated the game and significantly changed/grown the game.

McDavid, Crosby/Ovi, Roy, Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard - hard to go back further, but probably Vezina gets on the list.

Lindros dominated and changed the game, but maybe not for long enough.

 

[iceburg]

I think the "subjectivity" of it is probably more due to the word "Generational" than the players themselves. In my era (70's until now), how many generations would that really account for? Just talking goalies for example, during my time as a hockey fan I would say that Hasek, Brodeur and Roy (in that order) were THE goalies of the time and I don't think there have been any since who are at that level, all 3 are, or are very close to generational goalies, but if they are all from virtually the same generation can they all be generational? I don't know maybe I'm just overthinking, it but that's where the subjectivity comes from for me.

Sure, that makes sense. I grew up in the 70s and, at the time, would have said that Tony O and Dryden were elite. I don't really know whether I would have called then generational at the time - not sure I even knew what it meant.
To me, best in his era doesn't necessarily mean generational. Of the three goalies you list I would only classify Hasek as generational because he did stuff in a way that no other goalie had done or has done since and he did it whether he had a good team or a bad team in front of him. He was kinda other worldly. I'm not sure about the other two. They were definitely elite but nothing they did stood out to me as beyond what others had done before or since. And I'm a huge Brodeur fan. They played large parts of their careers during the dead puck era.
That said if I don't include Roy and Brodeur, then the only other goalie I'm comfortable putting ahead of them is Sawchuck.
Did I just disprove my argument that generational talent is objective (at least when it comes to goalies)?

 

[RobsonStreet]

Generational, to me, are players who have both dominated the game and significantly changed/grown the game.

McDavid, Crosby/Ovi, Roy, Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard - hard to go back further, but probably Vezina gets on the list.

Lindros dominated and changed the game, but maybe not for long enough.

Worth noting that Lindros played more NHL games than Orr and his peak with the Flyers was 8 seasons; Orr played the better part of 9 with the Bruins (his 10th season was 10 games).

That’s both a commentary on how dominant Orr was during his peak and how dominance can distort how we remember longevity.

The biggest knock on Lindros isn’t longevity, IMO; it’s that he was anointed The Next One before playing a single game and that he fell short of that potential due to injury. A hall of fame player with generational potential, so to speak.

 

[Nuckles]

Marcus Pettersson purposely tanking his trade value so the Canucks can get him for cheap. 500 IQ move.