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Alot more, and I'm sure I'll be quite satisfied.

Miller is better and bot coming off major injury either, he's closer to at the time eichel than hertl..

SJ had to retain in order to move his contract to one of few teams, not the case with jt either.

Hertl isn't a great comp, if you like comps to begin with.

Hertl is a great Miller comp when comparing trade values and capspace.

Huge centers considered the motor of the team and league wide considered to be above average defenders when maybe theyre not so much.

Hertl didnt have a Hughes and Pettersson PP to put up the numbers like JT but is probably considered actually more defensively responsible and not a drama queen league wide.

Hertl got his knee scoped because he knew SJ would be bad and timed it so he could go on to a healthy start with his new team, kinda like im sure Miller would be sitting if we were SJ bad.

Hertl has now played every game for Vegas so far this season.

If they just waited, let him show the world his knee was better, and traded in offseason they probably could have got more.

Kinda like when we ship Miller midseason now with all the injuries and drama surrounding him.

Two late firsts and 8 mill capspace, imo is a great way for us to move on and make corresponding moves kinda like SJ.

Hertl has become 22 yr old Yaro Askarov like 6 months later for SJ.
 
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What do you think the Canucks will get for Miller?

I agree that Hertl is a bad example. Eichel is equally terrible (perhaps worse), but on the other end.


I both (a) think we won't get a piece as valuable as Nemec for Miller and (b) think Nemec isn't a good target as he isn't established enough.

I can't really see the Canucks going into next season with both Willander and Nemec as guaranteed regulars on the backend.
Eichel at the time, was a stupidly undervalued asset by a rather large percentage of ppl..

Miller is worth much more than hertl, and Nemec alone will not be enough, he has 99pt 1C value, with the playoff intangibles every team wants to add.
 
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The main problem is Hertl is the only example that lines up with everything else (age, cap hit, contract status, and trade protection). Miller has been a much better player so you should be able to take the Hertl return and adjust it to work. Hertl (retained), 3rd, & 3rd for Edstrom & 1st. Edstrom & 1st were flipped for Askarov. Get rid of the 3rds & retention and turn Askarov into Nemec, probably in the ballpark.
The other piece is that while there was retention in the Hertl deal, Miller will probably be around the same percentage of the cap next year as Hertl was post-retention.

Plus many teams couldn’t have taken that contract on without a contract going back. Presumably the Canucks aren’t going to get out of this mid-season without taking on a contract, which should increase the rest of the return.
 
The main problem is Hertl is the only example that lines up with everything else (age, cap hit, contract status, and trade protection). Miller has been a much better player so you should be able to take the Hertl return and adjust it to work. Hertl (retained), 3rd, & 3rd for Edstrom & 1st. Edstrom & 1st were flipped for Askarov. Get rid of the 3rds & retention and turn Askarov into Nemec, probably in the ballpark.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be critical of your work. My point isn't that Hertl isn't one of the best comparables for the reasons you have given. My point is that he just isn't a very good comparable and probably isn't going to have much bearing on Miller's value.

Again, statistically, they aren't even close. And I really do think people don't appreciate how much GMs love a certain physical style of player. And GMs really do see these types of players as unicorns notwithstanding that they may otherwise comparable favourable to other players. And I am not saying that Miller necessarily meets these requirements, but he may, and Hertl absolutely doesn't and it can't be overstated.

I remember during a mock arbitration I had with Gilman and Gillis I tried to compare Chris Stewart to Milan Lucic, and they laughed at me, essentially, hitting home the point that, at least at that time, Milan Lucic was this unicorn type player and his value wasn't comparable at all to Stewart. Again, not saying that Miller is what Lucic was, but you get the point.
 
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Eichel at the time, was a stupidly undervalued asset by a rather large percentage of ppl..

You can take from the Eichel trade that he was undervalued, or you can take from that trade that teams don't get good value when they are forced to trade star players. And I think the latter is the real lesson, not the former. And again, Eichel isn't remotely comparable to Miller. Your comparison sucks and isn't very useful.
Miller is worth much more than hertl, and Nemec alone will not be enough, he has 99pt 1C value, with the playoff intangibles every team wants to add.
Its kind of tough to judge Nemec's value. As we often see huge depreciations of value of former top draft picks from the ages of 20-23 or so if that player hasn't developed and progressed as you'd expect a top pick. So it wouldn't shock me if Miller could return a player like Nemec, but I also don't think its likely, and if you are expecting a "top" young player or prospect for Miller, you are going to be disappointed.
 
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PLD was very unhappy as a Jet. Vilardi, Iafallo, Rupari, 2nd round pick.

That equals to something like Mercer, Haula, Bastian, 2nd. I'd probably ask for a more. Van could add in Suter and get another 2nd back.

One team isn't going to complete what Van would need back. Take both those 2nds and trade up into the first or for another center or defencemen.
 
Zadorov deal is still an overpayment for what he is, as BOS is finding out.

Chasing Guentzel was the right call - he was the only real "star" player on the market, a needle-mover.

He shouldn't have signed Myers + one of Forbort/Desharnais and reallocated those cap dollars on a different player.

Yup, Boston fans have another 4+ years of that horrible contract. I tried to get behind the Myers signing for the reasons management did, security, leadership, locker room, etc. It was a poor choice. Looks like we just signed the wrong stop gaps. Thankfully they don't have much term except Myers for at least one more year before we can move him,

zadorov only brings rooms together by giving everyone a single person to dislike

i think the same things that make him popular with the fans (his big personality, his candidness) make him very unpopular with his teammates. i don't think he was in vancouver long enough to really wear on the team but i think very few people in the calgary and colorado dressing rooms were sad to see him go

I've played with guys like this. Unless you can back it up on the ice, which Zadorov cannot, it gets tired super quick. Really fun when your guy is punching someone in the head and then talking funny ridiculing smack after you win a big game. Really really lame in a worse way when this idiot is yapping at people while shipping goals out like no tomorrow for your 4th loss in a row. Opponents feast on guys like this. Looks fun from the outside if you like wwe wrestling and shit though. Noting like a crap player running his mouth continually to undermine the team's efforts.

This team has no real leaders and it's asking a lot from Quinn Hughes to mend the dressing room. Someone like Ian Cole played for multiple cup winning teams and has been around the league since 2010. Same deal with Luke Schenn who had to endure a crazy amount of media criticism and hardship during his Toronto days. The "Benning stink" has seriously impacted the guys who should have developed into leaders. They have loser traits and a loser mindset.

You wonder if it may be worth it to bring back guys like Alec Martinez and Ian Cole who can at least play well in a depth role and provide a decent amount of experience.

Signing guys like Forbort, Desharnais, Heinen and Sprong was such a massive mistake.

I love Quinn as Captain but maybe this is too big of a situation for him at this juncture. Not like his assistants are strong leaders in their own right or anything. Looks like he's dealing with a lot of tough issues for a quiet leader.
 
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Without the drama around Miller, we could legitimately get Luke Hughes straight up for him, which would put us in a position to sign Jack at the end of his deal.
 
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I'm not sure you know what the bolded word actually means.
also Vector said:
Emotions are high and I am asking everyone here to take a short walk before they post. Almost every thread needs to be monitored now. It's bad enough that the Canucks have been terrible, we need to keep this forum a place where we can have actual discussions without throwing insults and insinuations around.

Don't throw insults and insinuations around, ya jerkass. ;)
 
After fantasizing about a JT for Nemec trade all morning, it just occurred to me that would Jack/Luke really be ok with bringing JT into their dressing room (assuming that all that is being rumored is true, i.e. Quinn is tiring of JT's antics)? They would no doubt have heard all the stories from Quinn already.
 
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After fantasizing about a JT for Nemec trade all morning, it just occurred to me that would Jack/Luke really be ok with bringing JT into their dressing room (assuming that all that is being rumored is true, i.e. Quinn is tiring of JT's antics)? They would no doubt have heard all the stories from Quinn already.
Yes because it's already known they will eventually join Quinn in Van to bring the Cup home.
 
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This is sort of just semantics. Whether you call it a longer retool or rebuild, I don't think ownership was going to sign off on any plan that did not have an intended goal of being completive within a couple of years. To put it another way, I don't think a "slower retool" of 3-4 years was ever something ownership was willing to do. How soon we forget Trevor Linden as President who wasn't even willing to say the word "rebuild" during a period of time that it made way more sense for ownership to rebuild. And when Alvinn was hired, and ignoring the bubble playoffs which were kind of a joke and which the Canucks probably wouldn't have made if the season wasn't shut down, the Canucks had missed the playoffs six straight years so I highly doubt that ownership was going to green light any plan where they may miss another three to four years. Especially when the Canucks had a young core with Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Miller and Demko.


No, the goal doesn't change, but the chances of success change and so the harshness of our criticism does change. Its like if someone tries to run 100Kms and fails to make it the whole distance vs. someone who tries to run 5kms and fails to make it the whole distance. The former is goal is far more difficult than the latter so we aren't going to judge both failures in the same manner.


The external standard is trying to become a contender. I think we probably both agree on this. But Allvin actually has already accomplished that, but obviously for only one year. And I think we both agree that the period of time for which a team is a contender is also relevant in judging a management team. My point is that Allvin has actually executed quite well on a path that he was likely forced to take by ownership (i.e., compete now), and that when you judge him in the context of executing a compete now type plan, he's done quite well. Certainly he won't get perfect marks, but he's done quite well. And of course we don't know what the next few years will bring. Obviously things are looking dire now, but we are also one point out of a playoff spot, and it certainly wouldn't surprise anyone if we look back in four years and the Canucks had made the playoffs 3-4 times over the past five years.


They are not a contender.

Even if they made the playoffs this year, it doesn't make them one. A contender is a team that separates itself from the pack on true talent. They have not achieved this mark during Allvin's tenure. Last year they had a run. Played above their level with everything breaking right (1980s Oiler level conversion early). And then in the playoffs they couldn't keep up with the Oilers. That's not contention. They were a level below.

This will end up in a semantics debate, I know it. If you thought they were a top5~ team on true talent last year, you're welcome to that assessment.

The way to assess management is to see what they tried to do (quick re-tool) and judge it against their goal (1-2 years contention). Based upon that alone, they have failed. It's a high standard, yes, but it's one they chose to set. Externally, they will be judged against it. If they thought it was unlikely, then don't do it.

JR/Allvin get full credit for avoiding a full rebuild (trading Pettersson and Hughes). We laud them for their execution amidst a quick re-tool (I have done so many times). Yet when we question the decision to choose a quick re-tool over a slower re-tool, it's too harsh? No, it's fair. They are not irreproachable.

To use your analogy: If an out of shape slob gets up off the coach and decides to compete in a 100k marathon within a week, we would call that unwise. Maybe try to get in shape first and do the 5k in 6 months.
 
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You can take from the Eichel trade that he was undervalued, or you can take from that trade that teams don't get good value when they are forced to trade star players. And I think the latter is the real lesson, not the former. And again, Eichel isn't remotely comparable to Miller. Your comparison sucks and isn't very useful.

Its kind of tough to judge Nemec's value. As we often see huge depreciations of value of former top draft picks from the ages of 20-23 or so if that player hasn't developed and progressed as you'd expect a top pick. So it wouldn't shock me if Miller could return a player like Nemec, but I also don't think its likely, and if you are expecting a "top" young player or prospect for Miller, you are going to be disappointed.
He was undervalued. Fax. Trying to twist it into anything but that is stupid.
Eichel is and has always been top tier.
At the time ppl were crying constantly about his neck and talking as if he wasn't top tier.
There's a million posts to prove it.
It was just as dumb then just as it is now.

Miller is top tier.
If he's traded it will be for a return better than a single 20yr old unproven defenseman.

Hertl is not top tier.

That is all.
 
He was undervalued. Fax. Trying to twist it into anything but that is stupid.
Eichel is and has always been top tier.
At the time ppl were crying constantly about his neck and talking as if he wasn't top tier.
There's a million posts to prove it.
It was just as dumb then just as it is now.

Miller is top tier.
If he's traded it will be for a return better than a single 20yr old unproven defenseman.

That is all.
I want to see this fax showing he was undervalued. Don't see that often these days.
 
He was undervalued. Fax. Trying to twist it into anything but that is stupid.
Eichel is and has always been top tier.
At the time ppl were crying constantly about his neck and talking as if he wasn't top tier.
There's a million posts to prove it.
It was just as dumb then just as it is now.

Miller is top tier.
If he's traded it will be for a return better than a single 20yr old unproven defenseman.

Hertl is not top tier.

That is all.
Miller is nearing 32. Eichel was 25 when he was traded. 7 prime years difference.

Gary Mason weighs in:


That showed up on my twitter, who the heck is he.
 
Miller is nearing 32. Eichel was 25 when he was traded. 7 prime years difference.


That showed up on my twitter, who the heck is he.
A wannabe Joe Biden.

mason-gary.jpg
 
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