Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | It's All Gone Pete Tong

[rypper]

you're dreaming.

It's the bat signal.

 

[bossram]

You get Brady in the playoffs and I guarantee he becomes a freight train that would be hard to contain. I don't think there would be many disappearing acts. You win cups with these types of players.

"You win Cups with these types of players".

That would require actually getting to the playoffs. Maybe finding his way to the DZ once in a while.

 

[bossram]

Quinn and his contract 3 years from now is the least of my concerns. Especially if the dude has to babysit these forwards for the next couple.

Heck if we dont do something NOW, ya'll should be worried about Quinn asking for NJ this offseason, forget when hes a UFA.

This is a league where Joey Daccord and Blackwood just got 5x5s. We are absolutely blessed the goalie graveyard from the 2000s somehow keeps gifting us starters YEAR after YEAR after YEAR. Its the one thing we dont have to pray for. Lankinen can absolutely be the starter and we absolutely dodged the Thatcher bullet even if his trade value is worthless today. No 10,000,000 x7's in Thatcher and Vancouver's future is a blessing.

Brock Boeser for Josh Norris.

Ottawa gets out of that longterm deal, can still push for playoffs with Brock, and can still trade him if they dont feel the cost or fit is right.

Boom, Quinn's best friend and a centerman.

This is a team that just iced Di Guiseppe, Sasson, Brisebois, Forbort, Desharnais AND Juulsen in the same game.

Maybe Lekk doesnt replace Boeser today no but there is like 10 roster spots we can upgrade on here! Lekk and a upgrade on PDG and yes I believe we can withstand the loss of Brock and even be better off.

Maybe Miller doesnt get a "haul" but having an warchest of pieces and we're right back in it and can chase the next Necas, Tkachuk, Cozens types around the league.

Josh Norris is a worse player than Boeser. And he's your plan to replace Miller and Petey at 1C. LMAO.

You're only concerned with the next three years, but your plan is to ice a Seattle Kraken-esque roster. Make it make sense.

 

[bossram]

If it wasn't going to be a true contender, why re-tool so quickly? Re-tool slower. Take some time with asset accrual and development as they have with Lekkerimaki and Willander (while keeping the core4 together).

You are probably correct in your assessment. They've hit critical mass in terms of burning capital. Now, they have to hope that when all the players get back, they can right the ship. We'll know by the end of the season...


Crosby has the character to go with his play. Miller does not, and outside of his peak, his play lags behind Pettersson. Therefore, Miller should never have been allowed to be critical of Pettersson. Least of all for 5 years (per rumour)...

I'm actually heartened by the fact that Pettersson hasn't given ground to Miller. The rift persists because Pettersson has entrenched. This far, no further. If Tocchet is looking for some 'FU', that's it right there.

They could both have issues. Both have struggled this season. But only one has chosen to bully the other toward an untenable situation. It's not Pettersson, despite outperforming Miller for the most part.

I was in favour of a slower retool/reset when Allvin took over. Allvin didn't go that route. He was aggressive in turning the team into something more competitive quickly. I said before, it was a very narrow window to accomplish that, but I think he did it about as effectively as could be expected.

That path ultimately had a ceiling though and they may be running up against it. But some are advocating trading Miller AND Petey NOW as if that can be some kind of quick retool and be immediately competitive next season. No it isn't. That's a full rebuild and people thinking otherwise are delusional.

Agreed on your assessment of Miller vs. Petey. Miller has no credibility to criticize Pettersson, given JT's constant defensive gaffes and general laziness (not to mention the temper tantrums).

 

[bossram]

FYI, Miller has a higher PPG this year (.89 to .82) albeit with better deployment and while being out of action for a sizeable period of the season.

His results are entirely propped up by Quinn Hughes.

JT Miller scoring chance percentage w/ Hughes: 62%
JT MIller w/o Hughes: 38%

He's horrible in the minutes Quinn isn't strapped to him.

 

[TruGr1t]

I was in favour of a slower retool/reset when Allvin took over. Allvin didn't go that route. He was aggressive in turning the team into something more competitive quickly. I said before, it was a very narrow window to accomplish that, but I think he did it about as effectively as could be expected.

That path ultimately had a ceiling though and they may be running up against it. But some are advocating trading Miller AND Petey NOW as if that can be some kind of quick retool and be immediately competitive next season. No it isn't. That's a full rebuild and people thinking otherwise are delusional.

Agreed on your assessment of Miller vs. Petey. Miller has no credibility to criticize Pettersson, given JT's constant defensive gaffes and general laziness (not to mention the temper tantrums).

I think we agreed on that in the past in terms of how narrow the window would be. I also think they might start running up against it after this year unless the cap inflates rapidly. I also agree there's about zero chance they rebuild at all while Hughes is around, but I'm not sure if management agrees with your sentiment that trading both Pettersson and Miller constitutes a rebuild. I would not be surprised at all if they think they can pull it off and keep the team competitive around Hughes.

 

[Diablo2020]

Josh Norris is a worse player than Boeser. And he's your plan to replace Miller and Petey at 1C. LMAO.

You're only concerned with the next three years, but your plan is to ice a Seattle Kraken-esque roster. Make it make sense.

I was just pointing out a centerman who wins 54.3% of his draws, whom hasnt missed a game this year, whom has 2 less goals on the season than Miller and Petey combined, that others (you obviously) seem to think could be had for free.. is out there.

I havent even chopped up Petey and Miller yet and "Norris is my #1 center and the team is Seattle-esque?"

Did I give those two away for free in your head? As an armchair GM am I just hoarding the 20 million in capspace without a plan to spend it elsehwere, for Frankies sake?

 

[bossram]

I think we agreed on that in the past in terms of how narrow the window would be. I also think they might start running up against it after this year unless the cap inflates rapidly. I also agree there's about zero chance they rebuild at all while Hughes is around, but I'm not sure if management agrees with your sentiment that trading both Pettersson and Miller constitutes a rebuild. I would not be surprised at all if they think they can pull it off and keep the team competitive around Hughes.

I agree, I think that's what they think. I do not think it would work.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I was in favour of a slower retool/reset when Allvin took over. Allvin didn't go that route. He was aggressive in turning the team into something more competitive quickly. I said before, it was a very narrow window to accomplish that, but I think he did it about as effectively as could be expected.

That path ultimately had a ceiling though and they may be running up against it. But some are advocating trading Miller AND Petey NOW as if that can be some kind of quick retool and be immediately competitive next season. No it isn't. That's a full rebuild and people thinking otherwise are delusional.

Agreed on your assessment of Miller vs. Petey. Miller has no credibility to criticize Pettersson, given JT's constant defensive gaffes and general laziness (not to mention the temper tantrums).

I'm not sure how aware Miller is of his own limitations? Or his play relative to Pettersson? I think Tocchet has exacerbated the issue by continuing to deploy Miller with Hughes. Flip this around and he gets humbled.

Barring a trade request, I keep both of them though. In season, there's not a lot you can do. In the offseason, Miller opens up his NTC and you resolve it then. For now, no movement.

Here I thought I was on an island when advocating for the slow re-tool? Bossram with the correct call again. At the time, it was a choice between what they chose to do and a full rebuild, and nothing else... Black and white. Everything to the contrary was 'delusional'. Yeah, not the case at all.

That's an astute point about Allvin. His competence grants us a rare glimpse into assessing the probability of that quick re-tool based upon what they had (without the variable of incompetent management).

 

[kanucks25]

There’s 95% of me that thinks this but the 5% of me that doesn’t is the part where the criticisms of practice habits and mentality come across as very serious given the organization they came from and how Crosby, Letang etc were..

I get that, but you'd hope that if management had real concerns about those issues they wouldn't have given him the contract they did, unless they just assumed because he got the contract he would start taking things more seriously or something.

You'd think they'd have to be 100% convinced about the guy otherwise it's all an incredibly risky gamble. Or they thought they could always just trade him before next summer if things don't work out? I don't know it's all so confusing lol.

 

[sting101]

On balance (deployment, possession and counting stats), I would take Pettersson's play over Miller this year.

What year? 2024? Pettersson hasn't played this year?

Pettersson had 7 ES goals and 34 pts (42%) against playoff teams in 2024

Miller had 14 and 46 pts (50%)

and outscored him 92 pts in 71 games to 80 in 80 games.

On balance possession and counting stats Miller was better in 2024

MILLER--------------PETTERSSON
with/total
1566 Boeser---------1217 Hughes
1161 Hughes---------787 Boeser
800 Hronek----------745 Hronek
5v5
1127 Boeser----------466 Mikhayev
277 DeGuiseppe-----448 Hoglander
276 Suter------------359 Boeser
190 Garland ---------338 Garland
176 Hoglander-------287 Debrusk

5v5 most minutes against 10 Cs and their lines

Danault 39:13 -------Kopitar 33:46
MacKinnon 31:34----Granlund 32:31
McDavid 31:28------Coleman 30:45
Eichel 29:55---------Kadri 23:40
Granlund 28:10-------Aho 22:45
O'Reilly 27:00--------Stephenson 22:12
Hertl 26:51-----------Draisaitl 21:24
Horvat 24:52---------Bedard 20:52
Crosby 24:26--------O'Reilly 20:25
Kadri 23:45----------Pospisil 19:48

Which minutes against these Cs looks easier??

 

[Ernie]

What year? 2024? Pettersson hasn't played this year?

Pettersson had 7 ES goals and 34 pts (42%) against playoff teams in 2024

Miller had 14 and 46 pts (50%)

and outscored him 92 pts in 71 games to 80 in 80 games.

On balance possession and counting stats Miller was better in 2024

You're being intentionally obtuse. He was clearly talking about the 2025-2026 season.

 

[Svencouver]

Last year *was* a window, all things considered, and I think they did very well with their unlikely flash of contention. The team was a healthy Demko and Pettersson away from making the WCF and beyond. I think, now, the best move is pretty obviously to use the highest value non-core assets to re-orient around the ELCs of Lekkerimaki and Willander and hope that they essentially solve this teams problems alongside whatever you get back from the trades you make this deadline and offseason.

As has been mentioned more than many times; the addition/subtraction of one player has a very significant effect beyond just their own individual play in re-aligning depth up and down the lineup. Without Hronek, and subsequently, without Hughes, everyone has been moved up a peg into roles that they simply are not capable of holding. Tyler Myers on your bottom pair is more than twice as good as Tyler Myers on your middle pair, which is more than twice as good as Tyler Myers on your top pair. Willander actually being a top 4 D, and acquiring an excellent partner for him on the left side, would both be completely transformative to our backend and essentially necessary for contending.

As for how that all affects offense (and whether or not Lekkerimaki can contribute in the top 6) remains to be seen. While its true that this team simply must systematically shelter every member of its blueline sans Hughes-Hronek, and thus cannot drive anything but an opportunistic offense (hoping for possession-dominant hockey out of this team is completely pointless), It remains to be seen to me whether or not a Tocchet-coached team can really just completely steamroll teams and not play down to their level.

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

It will be nice when they are both back and want to outplay one another. I imagine with the 4 nations these guys are going to light it up on fire.

Both are 100 point centers in the league. Who has that at 1C and 2C

 

[Bleach Clean]

I get that, but you'd hope that if management had real concerns about those issues they wouldn't have given him the contract they did, unless they just assumed because he got the contract he would start taking things more seriously or something.

You'd think they'd have to be 100% convinced about the guy otherwise it's all an incredibly risky gamble. Or they thought they could always just trade him before next summer if things don't work out? I don't know it's all so confusing lol.

There is almost no risk at all going long-term for Pettersson's contract. At worst, you're moving an elite talent within a rising cap environment. At best, you've secured value over the length of the deal, despite a bad stretch.

They understood, acutely, the rarity of his type of talent. The contract is a good thing.

 

[sting101]

You're being intentionally obtuse. He was clearly talking about the 2025-2026 season.

And he's not?

The point is you guys who keep villainizing Miller are out to lunch

I added some context you should read just so you can see how important he was. Short of getting a almost equal return this team is done in the short term

 

[Diablo2020]

It will be nice when they are both back and want to outplay one another. I imagine with the 4 nations these guys are going to light it up on fire.

Both are 100 point centers in the league. Who has that at 1C and 2C

In survivor TV show terms, The Canucks have a chance to vote two players off the island to make the tribe stronger.

They may be the strongest of the lot in challenges but back home at camp theyre miserable and hard to live and play with.

Ideally youd want to vote one out and then see how the other reacts and maybe they get their stuff together but we lost this years immunity challenge and we're going to tribal before the trade deadline.

If we wait until next tribal on July 1, Peteys hidden immunity becomes active and Miller was already an advanced age when we started day 1, he's gets older every tribal we dont vote him out.

I believe there's some young talent on other tribes though and this seasons show you can add them to your tribe to offset the losses!

Outwit. Outlast. Embrace the hard.

 

[racerjoe]

In survivor TV show terms, The Canucks have a chance to vote two players off the island to make the tribe stronger.

They may be the strongest of the lot in challenges but back home at camp theyre miserable and hard to live and play with.

Ideally youd want to vote one out and then see how the other reacts and maybe they get their stuff together but we lost this years immunity challenge and we're going to tribal before the trade deadline.

If we wait until next tribal on July 1, Peteys hidden immunity becomes active and Miller was already an advanced age when we started day 1, he's gets older every tribal we dont vote him out.

I believe there's some young talent on other tribes though and this seasons show you can add them to your tribe to offset the losses!

Outwit. Outlast. Embrace the hard.

I a a huge survivor fan… and that apology just doesn’t work. You want to vote out the strong and then the weak preferably, and there is lots of reasons to vote players out. Ideally you would in survivor keep at least one and use them as a shield later in the game… much like how the team should keep one player.

 

[supercanuck]

Dallas has a pair of struggling top line forwards just like us. I wonder if they would be willing to do a swap?

Hintz or Robertson for Miller or EP

 

[Diablo2020]

I a a huge survivor fan… and that apology just doesn’t work. You want to vote out the strong and then the weak preferably, and there is lots of reasons to vote players out. Ideally you would in survivor keep at least one and use them as a shield later in the game… much like how the team should keep one player.

Nah in this case neither Pettersson or Miller has any votes on their side. Pure lone wolfs.

Allvin has rebuilt this entire roster brick by brick literally only Myers and Brock remain from day 1 off the boat.

Its basically episode 2 after the merge. They voted out Zaddy and Lindy first tribal together as a big whole and replaced them with Jake and Keifer.

Now no one can stand Petey and JT its basically the 2025 ufas and the 2024 ufas as voting blocks, then the 8th defenseman masquerading as top 6s form another power block.

Pius Suter has been trashing both behind their backs cause he knows theyres a faceoff challenge coming up soon.

Its not even a blindside both guys see it coming and have been too busy looking around the beach for an idol than putting in the work on the sand.

They both even took shots in the dark and sat themselves out to avoid another tribe wanting them cause they injured.

What season of Nucks survivor have you been watching buddy?

 

[PavelBure10]

Dallas has a pair of struggling top line forwards just like us. I wonder if they would be willing to do a swap?

Hintz or Robertson for Miller or EP

Only thing about Robertson he skates in quicksand.

 

[racerjoe]

Nah in this case neither Pettersson or Miller has any votes on their side. Pure lone wolfs.

Allvin has rebuilt this entire roster brick by brick literally only Myers and Brock remain from day 1 off the boat.

Its basically episode 2 after the merge. They voted out Zaddy and Lindy first tribal together as a big whole and replaced them with Jake and Keifer.

Now no one can stand Petey and JT its basically the 2025 ufas and the 2024 ufas as voting blocks, then the 8th defenseman masquerading as top 6s form another power block.

Pius Suter has been trashing both behind their backs cause he knows theyres a faceoff challenge coming up soon.

Its not even a blindside both guys see it coming and have been too busy looking around the beach for an idol than putting in the work on the sand.

They both even took shots in the dark and sat themselves out to avoid another tribe wanting them cause they injured.

What season of Nucks survivor have you been watching buddy?

If no one can stand them… then that is exactly who you take to the finals as a zero vote finalist

 

[Diablo2020]

If no one can stand them… then that is exactly who you take to the finals as a zero vote finalist

In a normal survivor season where you redraft the team every monsoon season, yeah.

But this is Canucks Survivor buddy, this suffering is in perpetuity.

Same cast, season after season.

That Pettersson hidden immunity idol becomes active for 7 seasons!

Thats like 2 Panama's, 3 Malaysia's and a couple Samoa's.

We take JT to the end, make him make fire so we can snicker at em, then he gets zero votes to win cause hes a jerk...

..and hes back on the boat in October at training camp ready for season 2 of Panama.

Allstars, JT edition.

 

[bossram]

I was just pointing out a centerman who wins 54.3% of his draws, whom hasnt missed a game this year, whom has 2 less goals on the season than Miller and Petey combined, that others (you obviously) seem to think could be had for free.. is out there.

I havent even chopped up Petey and Miller yet and "Norris is my #1 center and the team is Seattle-esque?"

Did I give those two away for free in your head? As an armchair GM am I just hoarding the 20 million in capspace without a plan to spend it elsehwere, for Frankies sake?

I mean, I don't know. Your "plan" (insofar as anyone can call it that) is not much more than "trade Petey and Miller and magically be a better team after". You don't have any realistic proposals that improve the team in that scenario.

And Norris is a vastly inferior player. If you want to disagree, feel free. But he is.

 

[bossram]

I'm not sure how aware Miller is of his own limitations? Or his play relative to Pettersson? I think Tocchet has exacerbated the issue by continuing to deploy Miller with Hughes. Flip this around and he gets humbled.

Barring a trade request, I keep both of them though. In season, there's not a lot you can do. In the offseason, Miller opens up his NTC and you resolve it then. For now, no movement.

Here I thought I was on an island when advocating for the slow re-tool? Bossram with the correct call again. At the time, it was a choice between what they chose to do and a full rebuild, and nothing else... Black and white. Everything to the contrary was 'delusional'. Yeah, not the case at all.

That's an astute point about Allvin. His competence grants us a rare glimpse into assessing the probability of that quick re-tool based upon what they had (without the variable of incompetent management).

I think the optimal course of action is to wait on Miller and Petey until the offseason too. Unless some desperate/dumb team offers something decent for Miller, in which case he can go now.

Yes, at the time of Allvin's hiring I was more in favour of a "rebuild" (though for me that would not include trading away Petey or Quinn). Took a lot heat for it at the time. Honestly I think Allvin has mostly proved me wrong and largely threaded the narrow window to make the team competitive quickly, but in the longer-term I think I'll be right that in the end their ceiling is capped and they can't be a true contender with the current direction.