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Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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It's far too early to say one way or another what the right decision will end up being. And I don't necessarily think we're better with the forward group below. But man, what a difference 11.6M buys on defense.

For reference sake, we'd have 690k left with this roster. So it's actually cap positive.


View attachment 917731

Funny that so many people are talking up Lindholm now when the main story with him was how much he was underperforming going into the playoffs.

Pettersson has a much better chance of living up to his contract than Lindholm and Zadorov do.
 

mriswith

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Oct 12, 2011
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Lindholm's slumps are worse than EP's and his contract ends when he's 37. Dude looked like the literal reincarnation of Loui for most of the regular season.

The CAR offer was also garbage.

No one should have any regret about those two particular choices, if we wanted to trade EP there'd have been or would be a way better deal available.
 
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F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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Funny that so many people are talking up Lindholm now when the main story with him was how much he was underperforming going into the playoffs.

Pettersson has a much better chance of living up to his contract than Lindholm and Zadorov do.

Lindholm's slumps are worse than EP's and his contract ends when he's 37. Dude looked like the literal reincarnation of Loui for most of the regular season.

I wouldn't say Lindholm's slumps are worse than EP. Everyone is entitled to a down season and Lindholm righted the ship after taking some time off and in time for the playoffs. Plus he has the excuse of new system teammates etc. Regardless, we can agree that Lindholm at this stage in his career (by us here) isn't the same calibre player as Petey so the expectations should be different.

As for living up to his contract, I disagree with @Ernie here. I think Zadorov has a much higher chance of living up to his contract. All he has to do is be a solid top 4 Dman and step things up a bit in the playoffs and he's worth $5M AAV in a rising cap environment. It's something Zadorov is capable of he just hasn't showed the consistency in doing so.
 

Hodgy

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Feb 23, 2012
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He's still playing 3rd pairing ice time in Boston despite the $30m contract.

I like the player but no NHL coach has ever trusted him to play in the top 4 consistently.

Zadorov's time on ice in Boston very firmly puts him in the top four. He plays almost 2 minutes more than the 5th ranked defensemen and only 8 seconds less than the third ranked defensemen.

And in Vancouver, he was the third ranked defensemen in the playoffs.
 

LemonSauceD

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Big thing about the Zadorov contract is the term. His CAP hit wasn't the problem but you're putting most your chips in to the pot on Zadorov and closing the door for other potential opportunities down the road to improve the blueline.
Big, physical, excellent skating unicorns like Zadorov will always have a market. The term he was asking for was completely doable. Considering the 6 year contract he signed for takes him to 34/35, he should realistically be good for pretty much 85% of that contract barring career altering injuries.

If you needed to move him in a crunch because there’s a clear better alternative, attaching a pick or retaining a portion wouldn’t be a problem at all and all 31 teams will be listening.
 
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Hodgy

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Feb 23, 2012
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Lindholm was crap in the regular season but fairly good in the playoffs.
Ya, I wouldn't have re-signed Lindholm. It just didn't make sense. I would have liked a high-end winger but none came available, unfortunately.

Don't really like the Debrusk signing even though I think its lower risk given his age, but I think the Canucks may have done better to save the cap space and hunt for a mid-season / deadline high end forward acquisition that could be signed long term after being acquired.

When you look at the cost of Heinen and Desharnais, they are like $750K off Zadorov, and I would way rather have Zadorov over those two.
 

Hodgy

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Feb 23, 2012
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Big, physical, excellent skating unicorns like Zadorov will always have a market. The term he was asking for was completely doable. Considering the 6 year contract he signed for takes him to 34/35, he should realistically be good for pretty much 85% of that contract barring career altering injuries.

If you needed to move him in a crunch because there’s a clear better alternative, attaching a pick or retaining a portion wouldn’t be a problem at all and all 31 teams will be listening.
Ya, and I said this at the time, but Zadorov's "downside" is a bottom pairing defensemen, and what he would provide as a bottom pairing defensemen, would be worth around 3 million (for reference, Dasharnais, who was obviously just healthy scratched the last couple games, is getting paid 2 million). So, at worst, you are probably overpaying him 2 million a year, and he's still providing a unique physical edge that 95% of defensemen don't provide.

But his upside is tremendous. If he can play as a top three defensemen as he did in the playoffs for us, or even a top four defensemen, then the 5 million per is a bargain. And as you say, the term really isn't a problem.
 
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MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Zadorov's time on ice in Boston very firmly puts him in the top four. He plays almost 2 minutes more than the 5th ranked defensemen and only 8 seconds less than the third ranked defensemen.

And in Vancouver, he was the third ranked defensemen in the playoffs.

Yeah, fans have this thing where they thing 20:00 = top-4 (and that was usually the case in, like, 2008) but the prevalence of 4-forward sets on the PP means that 18-19 minutes is often 'top 4' now.

Tyler Myers played 18:57 last year for us which looks close to '5D' TOI but he was actually the #3 TOI guy on the team.
 
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LemonSauceD

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Ya, and I said this at the time, but Zadorov's "downside" is a bottom pairing defensemen, and what he would provide as a bottom pairing defensemen, would be worth around 3 million (for reference, Dasharnais, who was obviously just healthy scratched the last couple games, is getting paid 2 million). So, at worst, you are probably overpaying him 2 million a year, and he's still providing a unique physical edge that 95% of defensemen don't provide.

But his upside is tremendous. If he can play as a top three defensemen as he did in the playoffs for us, or even a top four defensemen, then the 5 million per is a bargain. And as you say, the term really isn't a problem.
$9.75M for Desharnais, Forbort, Heinen Sprong, Myers

IMO, that’s just terrible. That cap could’ve been put to better use. The only real upside I see is maybe Desharnais. And Myers 3 year NMC is really really bad.
 
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F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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There should be a plan in place. Whether that is a commitment to sign the player (and you should know what the ask has been for him) or you are just renting the player.

It's basically early free agency. You can let them play and see how they fit, Zadorov did well, Lindholm didn't. But, that will likely alter the price they ask for.

Agreed. Like I said, I don't have an issue with losing out on Lindholm. But still there might have been a (slight) miscalculation there. Lindholm reportedly turned down a 8 year $9M AAV offer from the Flames. He then proceeded to have a poor season and wasn't an immediate fit alongside Petey. Meanwhile, my theory is that the Canucks saw Lindholm as a Horvat replacement.

But ya like you said it's like early free agency. If you have a chance to lock up a pending UFA at a price that you're ultimately willing to pay you do it. It's a bit of a different story if the line is drawn over term.
 

sandwichbird2023

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Aug 4, 2004
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$9.75M for Desharnais, Forbort, Heinen Sprong, Myers

IMO, that’s just terrible. That cap could’ve been put to better use. The only real upside I see is maybe Desharnais. And Myers 3 year NMC is really really bad.
Yea I much rather have Zadorov and Friedman on the bottom pair at like $6m, than the Desharnais + Forbort + Heinen signing. I get that the latter group are on short term contracts that we can move on from fairly quickly, however, they are all either low upside acquisition or bad gambles (IMO), they don't move the needle at best, and becomes slight anchors at worst. Z provided us with so much, and while inconsistent, is a very valuable player. I was sad to see him go.

Sprong is a big swing, and at near league min, I have no issues with it. Waive him and send him down if he doesn't work out, it won't hurt our cap situation.
 

sandwichbird2023

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Agreed. Like I said, I don't have an issue with losing out on Lindholm. But still there might have been a (slight) miscalculation there. Lindholm reportedly turned down a 8 year $9M AAV offer from the Flames. He then proceeded to have a poor season and wasn't an immediate fit alongside Petey. Meanwhile, my theory is that the Canucks saw Lindholm as a Horvat replacement.

But ya like you said it's like early free agency. If you have a chance to lock up a pending UFA at a price that you're ultimately willing to pay you do it. It's a bit of a different story if the line is drawn over term.
Lindholm wouldn't have worked out here. We don't have a Pastrnak level player to pair him with, and he won't be able to produce very much otherwise. He had some chemistry with Garland/Joshua, but if that is your 2nd line (assuming we move Petey in this scenario), you aren't a serious contender. I also think he will become an anchor to the cap in his last 2-3 years on his contract, if not sooner. His production has been on a steady decline for a couple seasons now, its only going to get worse.
 

BenningHurtsMySoul

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Mar 18, 2008
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$9.75M for Desharnais, Forbort, Heinen Sprong, Myers

IMO, that’s just terrible. That cap could’ve been put to better use. The only real upside I see is maybe Desharnais. And Myers 3 year NMC is really really bad.

They were closer to Benning than they were in years past. Unfortunately, seems like they might have missed on more than a few of these names. Unlucky that it was also a pretty lean FA year.
 

VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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Yea I much rather have Zadorov and Friedman on the bottom pair at like $6m, than the Desharnais + Forbort + Heinen signing. I get that the latter group are on short term contracts that we can move on from fairly quickly, however, they are all either low upside acquisition or bad gambles (IMO), they don't move the needle at best, and becomes slight anchors at worst. Z provided us with so much, and while inconsistent, is a very valuable player. I was sad to see him go.

Sprong is a big swing, and at near league min, I have no issues with it. Waive him and send him down if he doesn't work out, it won't hurt our cap situation.
Yea I much rather have Zadorov and Friedman on the bottom pair at like $6m, than the Desharnais + Forbort + Heinen signing. I get that the latter group are on short term contracts that we can move on from fairly quickly, however, they are all either low upside acquisition or bad gambles (IMO), they don't move the needle at best, and becomes slight anchors at worst. Z provided us with so much, and while inconsistent, is a very valuable player. I was sad to see him go.

Sprong is a big swing, and at near league min, I have no issues with it. Waive him and send him down if he doesn't work out, it won't hurt our cap situation.
Yea I much rather have Zadorov and Friedman on the bottom pair at like $6m, than the Desharnais + Forbort + Heinen signing. I get that the latter group are on short term contracts that we can move on from fairly quickly, however, they are all either low upside acquisition or bad gambles (IMO), they don't move the needle at best, and becomes slight anchors at worst. Z provided us with so much, and while inconsistent, is a very valuable player. I was sad to see him go.

Sprong is a big swing, and at near league min, I have no issues with it. Waive him and send him down if he doesn't work out, it won't hurt our cap situation.
Yes, in the end with Zadorov it was 'the term' that was the killer. Canucks just weren't willing to commit that many years to a d-man whom they still have to carry well into his 30's. Maybe it was the OEL hangover that discouraged them.

Canucks have a lot of short term contracts, and even Myers is only signed for two more years after this on. They can move on from a lot of these guys, including the forwards they signed.

Of course that assumes that they finally have some d-men in the prospect pipeline who can actually play.
 

sandwichbird2023

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Aug 4, 2004
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Yes, in the end with Zadorov it was 'the term' that was the killer. Canucks just weren't willing to commit that many years to a d-man whom they still have to carry well into his 30's. Maybe it was the OEL hangover that discouraged them.

Canucks have a lot of short term contracts, and even Myers is only signed for two more years after this on. They can move on from a lot of these guys, including the forwards they signed.

Of course that assumes that they finally have some d-men in the prospect pipeline who can actually play.
I'm not sure why they are so worried about the term. Like you said they don't really have much in the pipeline, maybe EP2 makes it as 3LD down the road, then him and Z can interchange for the 2LD/3LD role after Soucy leave in 2 summer. As the cap keep going up, $5m is probably the going rate for the average/below average 2nd pairing D.

In the mean time, they would have a prime Z during their short cup window. Instead they are wasting this year with Forbort/Desharnais/Myers/Juulsen as their #3-7 for one of Hughes/JTM prime years. They might not even be a lock for the playoff by the TDL, do you buy, sell or hold then? Seems like a really risky plan for very little upside.
 
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pitseleh

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Jul 30, 2005
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When you look at the cost of Heinen and Desharnais, they are like $750K off Zadorov, and I would way rather have Zadorov over those two.

You’d have to replace Heinen on the roster too so add another ~$1 million.

Realistically re-signing Zadorov would have meant him plus two ~$1 million players ($7 million) instead of Myers, Desharnais, and Heinen ($7.25 million).

Can see an argument that would have been preferable but it would have materially hurt the team’s depth.
 
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theguardianII

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Jan 30, 2020
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Yes, in the end with Zadorov it was 'the term' that was the killer. Canucks just weren't willing to commit that many years to a d-man whom they still have to carry well into his 30's.
8 years takes him to 37 yrs old no serious injuries but could have done 6 years to 35 yrs old.
Myers signed to age 37
Forbort - 33
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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I wouldn't say Lindholm's slumps are worse than EP. Everyone is entitled to a down season and Lindholm righted the ship after taking some time off and in time for the playoffs. Plus he has the excuse of new system teammates etc. Regardless, we can agree that Lindholm at this stage in his career (by us here) isn't the same calibre player as Petey so the expectations should be different.

As for living up to his contract, I disagree with @Ernie here. I think Zadorov has a much higher chance of living up to his contract. All he has to do is be a solid top 4 Dman and step things up a bit in the playoffs and he's worth $5M AAV in a rising cap environment. It's something Zadorov is capable of he just hasn't showed the consistency in doing so.

All Zadorov has to do is do something he's never done before.
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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You’d have to replace Heinen on the roster too so add another ~$1 million.

Realistically re-signing Zadorov would have meant him plus two ~$1 million players ($7 million) instead of Myers, Desharnais, and Heinen ($7.25 million).

Can see an argument that would have been preferable but it would have materially hurt the team’s depth.

The problem is you wouldn't have any NHL caliber right side defensemen after Hronek.
 

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