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TruGr1t

Proper Villain
Jun 26, 2003
24,841
9,588
This is a failure on coaching and management (possibly even on Hughes' leadership abilities) to not nip this in the bud earlier and risk it torpedoing their season. If these two guys have beef and can't coexist, and from all indications they can't, then it needs to be addressed....understandably, when you have to make a franchise altering move, you need to have ownership support and you have to make sure you make the best deal (and choose the right person to keep and right one to move), all these things take time, but this should have been addressed earlier if it was even a glimmer of a possibility.

Bit of a chicken and egg thing, in my opinion. The dynamic is obviously manageable when the team is winning and playing well, we literally just saw it last year and this roster has obviously had success and been together for quite a while.

When things are tough and not going well, everything bubbles to the surface and you’ve got a bunch of problems. Management ended up having a pretty bad offseason, especially in terms of the defense, there’s been some injuries and bad luck etc. Team is just not as good as last year, which was somewhat expected.

Have always said they had a tough job trying to compete with the cap situation and schedule on expiring contracts, but now we’ve also got this ridiculous dressing room drama. I do question whether management just basically put their head in the proverbial sand in terms of Pettersson/Miller when signing those contracts.
 

brock hughes007

Registered User
Sep 12, 2019
1,242
897
victoria
it sucks our two best forwards have extremely shitty body language and attitude.

Pettersson? Won’t fight for his teammates. Quiet. Sulky pissy attitude. Miller? Laziness, checking out, selfish, commands around players but makes terrible decisions himself. Will stand up for you but won’t bring you up either.

I’ve honestly had it with both. I want guys who will play for their teammates but also bring up their teammates.
I would personally strip both of the A,s off there jerseys and give them to players that give a shit.
 

SopelFanThe3rd

Cock of the Walk
Oct 25, 2020
3,196
4,314
Your Mother's House.
I would personally strip both of the A,s off there jerseys and give them to players that give a shit.
This. Garland, Sherwood, Blueger, Suter, Joshua, Boeser, DeBrusk... even guys like Heinen, Myers, Soucy, Brannstrom, Juulsen, Sasson, etc. It isn't fair to these guys who have less skill sets and make less money but at least bring effort and professionalism to the rink every day. Not to mention guys like Demko and Lankinen who deserve better than this BS.

They need to move one or both asap or this whole season is a wash and we are wasting all of those guys and Hughes' entire season.

I also don't like PDG in the top 6 but he's a good character guy who busts his ass every shift. Keep him up if just for that.
 
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Svencouver

Registered User
Apr 8, 2015
5,515
10,760
Vancouver
Team sports are a human, social exercise of ego management, confidence, sustained mental health, and work ethic. Strategy, skill, and talent all matter, of course, but what we're seeing now with the Canucks is why someone like Crosby is still somehow underrated on hf. Keeping a team and a locker room motivated, hungry, confident, and happy, while consistently leading by example, was just as valuable to the Penguins as being one of the most talented forwards of all time.

It's not easy to do, at all. While intangibles were memed to hell in the Toews Hawks era, they've gone around to being strongly underrated in how important they are to sustained success and winning. This Canucks team is deeply insufficient in intangibles; much like the other teams circling in the drain of suckage for eternity, this Canucks team still has, to some degree, the smell of being a losing team from the Benning era stubbornly buried in its fabric like dog pee. This team is still terrified of losing. They're terrified that the bottom will fall out at any second. The main difference between us and a Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal, Ottawa; is having a true generational gamebreaking talent in Hughes, and having made a real top-down organizational change in hiring Rutherford and Allvin.

That's a great start, but it's not enough to attain the real excellence that defines teams like Forida, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Boston, and the Crosby Pens. That kind of belief held by every player, coach, scout, and management figure in every facet of the organization in eachother, and in the idea that their organization is a winning one, takes years to build. It's a matter of trust and prestige. That's why I think that expecting teams to just straight up contend in the ideal age window of the core to be a naive and outdated notion these days. Its harder than ever to build a winning team, and with how much bureaucracy and all-around competency is involved in running a good NHL team now, going from a team at the bottom of the standings to the top of the standings isn't as simple as just getting a good player or two. Vegas invested in that from day one, and that's why theyve been contenders since day one.

Insofar as this all relates to the Canucks; the team will not be a contender for as long as dread and drama hang over the heads of the fans, and by extension, the players. Whatever Petterssons problem is, whether its physical or mental, he needs to be given the space and support to figure things out and round back into form. The team needs to get Millers ego under control or trade him. The team needs to keep Hughes happy and consult him for what he thinks is best and who he wants to stay on this team. And while I love Tocchet and all the things he says; if he can't keep our players happy and confident and believing in themselves and eachother, then he simply can't be the head coach of this team if they're serious about winning a cup. People skills are what really distinguish and define coaches like Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich as the greatest of all time. People are saying - how did Kobe and Shaq get along? Well, it's because they had the all-time greatest mediator and social guru in sports history at the helm. Being able to manage Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman was no small feat, either. Can Tocchet actually be that guy?
 
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theguardianII

Registered User
Jan 30, 2020
3,794
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Of course it's better for the team to go long-term. This means it was not better for Pettersson, right? Yet, he still wanted it...
He didn't want it that badly considering it came down to Allvin threatening to trade him. I think it was pretty well known at the time that the Canucks were twisting his arm.
AND
If you were offered to have your salary tripled would you say no?

Performance can dictated by the coach and his system. His preferences as shown by who, which layers are getting added ice time. The boards guys, the grunts, the guys fighting for their next contracts, the AHL guys on their last chance are getting very close to the same ice time. An example last game Sherwood got the 4th most ice time for the forwards only 75 seconds less than Pettersson and 30 seconds more than Miller.

Maybe there should be a Tocchet thread, I have noticed a fair bit of posting about him and I have many doubts myself. Was last year Tocchet or the remains of Rutherford/Allvin's retooling the team? Certainly this year's team looks a lot more like a Tocchet team and there are many warts.
 

TruGr1t

Proper Villain
Jun 26, 2003
24,841
9,588
Tocchet should healthy scratch both of them. Rutherford should assign them seats in the lower bowl, with the fans and they should put the kiss cam on them every 5 minutes.

I doubt punishing (stripping “A”s, benching etc.) will do much here outside make the situation worse, maybe resulting in a direct trade request from one or both.

Maybe that type of move will work with Miller somewhat, but you’ll probably put Pettersson into greater pout mode, and hinder your bargaining position if you’re going to move anybody.

I don’t see much they can do outside of try and manage it behind closed doors and work the phones to see what these guys are worth.
 

Nick Lang

Registered User
May 14, 2015
2,456
940
I am beyond caring about the blow-by-blow on a junior high-ass feud between two star players being paid millions to do a job. If these two LITERALLY GROWN-ASS MEN can't ****ing talk it out and get back to work, then wtf are we even doing here?

Yeah it's pathetic if it's hurting the team but we don't even know if that's a factor.

I think fans need to understand last year was an anomaly. This is what regular hockey looks like. Lots of ups and downs. I don't think it's quite as simple as Miller and Petey are best friends and we're tops in the league.
 
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Jerry the great

Speculating is not a crime
Sponsor
Jul 8, 2022
1,212
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I doubt punishing (stripping “A”s, benching etc.) will do much here outside make the situation worse, maybe resulting in a direct trade request from one or both.

Maybe that type of move will work with Miller somewhat, but you’ll probably put Pettersson into greater pout mode, and hinder your bargaining position if you’re going to move anybody.

I don’t see much they can do outside of try and manage it behind closed doors and work the phones to see what these guys are worth.
did you think my suggestion was serious?
 

Just A Bit Outside

Playoffs??!
Mar 6, 2010
18,118
18,015
Not a good situation right now.

Everyone knows the difficulties between EP and JT.

So even mentioning trading either is from a position of weakness.

Then there's the return which I don't see a great fit with any team TBH.
 

valkynax

The LEEDAR
Sponsor
May 19, 2011
11,489
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Burnaby
About the pre-Christmas roster freeze, while player movement and trades are officially banned for the time being, are GM's still allowed to talk on the phone and confirm deals? For said deals to be finalized and announced AFTER the freeze is lifted?

Or would that be tampering?

Or...would that be tampering but only if you admit to everything in front of a camera despite both the league and the reporters giving you the strongest possible wink wink nudge nudge?
LAM_1136.jpg
 

iRageWin

Registered User
Aug 7, 2014
48
79
About the pre-Christmas roster freeze, while player movement and trades are officially banned for the time being, are GM's still allowed to talk on the phone and confirm deals? For said deals to be finalized and announced AFTER the freeze is lifted?

Or would that be tampering?

Or...would that be tampering but only if you admit to everything in front of a camera despite both the league and the reporters giving you the strongest possible wink wink nudge nudge?
LAM_1136.jpg
No, I don't think GMs are prohibited from negotiating trades, the roster freeze is just to prevent players having to wake up on Christmas morning to find they have to spend Christmas Day packing all their stuff to move across the country. Give them a little time off to actually spend with family
 

ATypicalCanadian

Registered User
Apr 30, 2015
4,897
2,703
Canada
This. Garland, Sherwood, Blueger, Suter, Joshua, Boeser, DeBrusk... even guys like Heinen, Myers, Soucy, Brannstrom, Juulsen, Sasson, etc. It isn't fair to these guys who have less skill sets and make less money but at least bring effort and professionalism to the rink every day. Not to mention guys like Demko and Lankinen who deserve better than this BS.

They need to move one or both asap or this whole season is a wash and we are wasting all of those guys and Hughes' entire season.

I also don't like PDG in the top 6 but he's a good character guy who busts his ass every shift. Keep him up if just for that.
Rutherford already admitted they need to add a couple more players to give themselves a chance to contend(presumably the reported Top 4D + Winger). If they have to deal one or both you very well might have to take a step back or risk sunk cost fallacy.
Not a good situation right now.

Everyone knows the difficulties between EP and JT.

So even mentioning trading either is from a position of weakness.

Then there's the return which I don't see a great fit with any team TBH.

That remains the real issue. If you deal one you just have to go out hunting for the replacement if you can't directly add the player in the same deal. I would guess that scenario is much more possible in a JT trade.

Get the assets and then hold them until a deal comes your way a la Hronek. We truly don't know which centers(presumably on the younger side)are available, though.
 
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TruGr1t

Proper Villain
Jun 26, 2003
24,841
9,588
Not a good situation right now.

Everyone knows the difficulties between EP and JT.

So even mentioning trading either is from a position of weakness.

Then there's the return which I don't see a great fit with any team TBH.

The real issue is probably Miller's NMC. I suspect management would prefer to keep Pettersson, but he's unencumbered by movement. I don't think you'll have real issues getting value on either, though. Teams were already calling about Miller, there's almost certainly a deal there with the Rangers.
 

tyhee

Registered User
Feb 5, 2015
2,686
2,831
I've seen enough, ship assets and Miller's pouty ass over to Buffalo for Byram and Cozens. If he rejects, pull a Trouba and threaten him with waivers.
Miller has a no move clause in his contract. He can't be waived.

Trouba's deal had a no move clause through June, 2024 but it became a modified no trade contract for 2024-25, so the Rangers could have waived him.

The result is that threatening Miller with waivers would be a completely empty threat.
 

Ernie

Registered User
Aug 3, 2004
13,361
3,224
It's a total mischaracterization to make this a Miller vs Pettersson thing.

Miller has a long history of being hard on his teammates. You would think a player coming back from a prolonged mental health break would bring with him a more balanced perspective. If this continues there will be no choice but to either formally place him in the player assistance program or find him a new home.
 

theguardianII

Registered User
Jan 30, 2020
3,794
1,895
Team sports are a human, social exercise of ego management, confidence, sustained mental health, and work ethic. Strategy, skill, and talent all matter, of course, but what we're seeing now with the Canucks is why someone like Crosby is still somehow underrated on hf. Keeping a team and a locker room motivated, hungry, confident, and happy, while consistently leading by example, was just as valuable to the Penguins as being one of the most talented forwards of all time.

It's not easy to do, at all. While intangibles were memed to hell in the Toews Hawks era, they've gone around to being strongly underrated in how important they are to sustained success and winning. This Canucks team is deeply insufficient in intangibles; much like the other teams circling in the drain of suckage for eternity, this Canucks team still has, to some degree, the smell of being a losing team from the Benning era stubbornly buried in its fabric like dog pee. This team is still terrified of losing. They're terrified that the bottom will fall out at any second. The main difference between us and a Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal, Ottawa; is having a true generational gamebreaking talent in Hughes, and having made a real top-down organizational change in hiring Rutherford and Allvin.

That's a great start, but it's not enough to attain the real excellence that defines teams like Forida, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Boston, and the Crosby Pens. That kind of belief held by every player, coach, scout, and management figure in every facet of the organization in eachother, and in the idea that their organization is a winning one, takes years to build. It's a matter of trust and prestige. That's why I think that expecting teams to just straight up contend in the ideal age window of the core to be a naive and outdated notion these days. Its harder than ever to build a winning team, and with how much bureaucracy and all-around competency is involved in running a good NHL team now, going from a team at the bottom of the standings to the top of the standings isn't as simple as just getting a good player or two. Vegas invested in that from day one, and that's why theyve been contenders since day one.

Insofar as this all relates to the Canucks; the team will not be a contender for as long as dread and drama hang over the heads of the fans, and by extension, the players. Whatever Petterssons problem is, whether its physical or mental, he needs to be given the space and support to figure things out and round back into form. The team needs to get Millers ego under control or trade him. The team needs to keep Hughes happy and consult him for what he thinks is best and who he wants to stay on this team. And while I love Tocchet and all the things he says; if he can't keep our players happy and confident and believing in themselves and eachother, then he simply can't be the head coach of this team if they're serious about winning a cup. People skills are what really distinguish and define coaches like Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich as the greatest of all time. People are saying - how did Kobe and Shaq get along? Well, it's because they had the all-time greatest mediator and social guru in sports history at the helm. Being able to manage Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman was no small feat, either. Can Tocchet actually be that guy?
A good post, thought out with reasonable ideas.

Crosby and the the team.
Teams that are winners rarely have the issues of the Canucks.
The core of this team have been on a losing team for 80+% of their careers and they do want to win. It is more than possible that they were or felt let down with the changes that were made both in personnel and system.

This Tocchet love affair might be getting exposed. He does appear to be able to get the desperate borderline players to play hard but he has a history of not dealing well with stars as a HEAD coach.

Over the decades I can't number the times where "the cancer in the room" has been a major topic or reason for teams failing. That the "room was in turmoil", that there were "cliques".

Hockey is not like some of the sports recently used as examples for working out issues between players. Basketball every player touches the ball and the stars all will get a shot, they also play the majority of the game still this is used as an example. A star player in basketball can't be shut out of touches. The coach can design plays for each.
Football has numerous players and they do have issues when a player feels he isn't getting enough touches but again the coach can change plays to suit.
Hockey is a "team" game more so than even basket ball. The coach in hockey can limit ice time, change line mates, bench because he doesn't like the color of a players eyes. While this is a little similar to any game and mostly football it is still different.

Shaq and Bryant, designed plays for both but also two wildly different talents and roles. Miller and Pettersson, two different players but the essentially the same skill sets or positions. The coach changes the PP plays and suddenly plays to the right side is changed from the one timer from Pettersson to the left side half boards from Hughes dishing off to Hughes holding the puck.

Both Miller and Pettersson are star talents but with different styles of play, the coach decides which style he likes and plays then assigns line mates and ice time.
Both players can be confident that other teams will want them, both are now held more responsible for the team's success or failures. Huge pressure. Then the coach plays them like his grunts, expecting them to play like his grunts, critiquing them for not playing like desperate players hoping for a new contract. making them compete with each other in an unfair system that favors his style or system.
Just the players that were removed from last years team show what he wants, GMs' often try to get the players the coach wants so this team is Tocchet's team all the way, his first 60 games were a left over from Rutherford/Allvin's first retooling that melded faster and surprisingly well, with the exception of Pettersson. could you imagine if they had pulled the trigger on the Necas rumored trade, he is more a Tocchet type, but they didn't and now there are two star players with their feet held to the fire having the success of the team placed on their shoulders and neither getting what all they need to succeed.

Tocchet got the Adams because Rutherford and Allvin did a great job, with the exception of the OEL buyout but that was a Tocchet/OEL hold over issue, not because he was a good coach, his record was dismal with numerous unhappy players on his head coaching resume.
I have read numerous times that Petey's game tanked after he signed his pressured contract but it also co-insides with Kuzmenko's trade, the guy he got 100 pts with, sometimes chemistry makes two players better than indvidually.

IMO for Tocchet it was "I'm in charge" and I think it was like that until Miller,(remember he was the player who called out the NHL for an unfair schedule and got it changed), needed his personal mystery leave. Since then Tocchets interviews have changed a lot.

I predicted a similar season to the 2016 year after the surprise 100+pt 2015 season. It definitely looks like I will be wrong, but maybe not too wrong only in they won't finish 26th but maybe 20th.
 
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credulous

Registered User
Nov 18, 2021
4,154
5,569
It's a total mischaracterization to make this a Miller vs Pettersson thing.

Miller has a long history of being hard on his teammates. You would think a player coming back from a prolonged mental health break would bring with him a more balanced perspective. If this continues there will be no choice but to either formally place him in the player assistance program or find him a new home.

i don't doubt pettersson can be a difficult teammate but miller had an awful reputation prior to vancouver and has now been central in two different locker room controversies in vancouver. anyone who thinks this is a pettersson problem has their head in the sand
 

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