Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Chaotic Times

[Hodgy]

Neither of us have any insight into what the players are doing off the ice. What we do know is that Petey's offseason training was interrupted by his knee injury, at his own admission. Other than that, I don't know how you are going to conclude Petey isn't "competing off the ice". What we agree on is that Petey is trying on the ice. This is what I take issue with people saying he isn't.

Yes, I agree. Miller has clear moments on the ice of inexcusable play. That's why he doesn't get a pass from me.

For sure, we won't know for certain. But Allvin's comments are much to that effect. And my explanation does, at least, explain how Pettersson's play has fallen off so much while at the same time Pettersson looks, at least on the ice, to still be trying. And yes, him training around his patellar tendinitis likely was a part of it. But I don't think it quite explains how much of a drop in performance he has had, nor does it explain why Allvin would be so critical of him.

 

[pitseleh]

I mean either way, nothing there was particularly egregious.

But again, the context here is that Miller had been consistently our best forward and 2nd best player for 100+ games dating back through the start of the previous year. There have been tons of lazy plays and bad games and bad stretches and controller disconnects from pretty much the entire veteran core of the team. And nobody else was ever benched.

If you're JT Miller and then you get benched and publicly embarrassed for *that*? I totally understand why you'd be really, really unhappy and feel like you'd been treated very unfairly. I think Tocchet just totally misread the situation and the player and how the context was totally different than the last time Miller was benched, when it had worked very well.

To me it felt like a dad giving the 'strongest kid' the harshest discipline 'because he can handle it' and not understanding how it would actually be internalized.

I guess that’s the thing - I agree it’s not that egregious. There’s probably ten other Miller plays this season I can think of that would have merited a benching before this if tied to on-ice performance issues.

It could be that Tocchet picked that specific, almost nothing play to bench Miller, but that seems unlike Tocchet, particularly when it’s the only time he’s benched Miller in recent memory.

It only really makes sense to me if it was tied to Miller being told to worry about his own game and not others’, given it’s the one play when he got burned directing traffic (and particularly directed at Pettersson). Then it’s more of a conduct issue - like being late to practice or a team meeting - than something performance based.

I could be wrong but to me it’s more plausible.

 

[Dirtyclapper]

Yes. And I'm going to stick with my own assessment of Petey's play vs. yours. You only noticed "hitzzz go boom" which is an indication of your evaluative ability.

No . I noticed when someone is sitting up at the Blue line just waiting for a pass doing nothing, it's pretty hard not to. He made one nice defensive play where he just simply dumped the puck but it was nice timing and he picked a good spot I think it was in the 2nd period and 2 very good shifts in the 3rd where he was fore checking hard in the offensive zone. That's the only good plays I saw from him all game and believe me I was watching. Also I believe he only won 2 or 3 faceoffs all game

**Edit** I just checked it was 2 out of 7 on the faceoff

 

[Vector]

Stu Grimson on NHL Network just compared the Myers cross check to the McSorely/Brashear incident

I’ll definitely trust a guy known as Grim Reaper in his playing days.

 

[Canucks LB]

Just a gentle reminder to all here - do NOT go to the Oilers forum to gloat, troll, or what have you.

It won't end well.

Trust me, it’s a bad idea, I got mixed up with other moderators from the past on there, taking strays

 

[Dirtyclapper]

Trust me, it’s a bad idea, I got mixed up with other moderators from the past on there, taking strays

I got a thread ban on the main boards for saying mc kitty should drop the gloves like a man next time

 

[bossram]

No . I noticed when someone is sitting up at the Blue line just waiting for a pass doing nothing, it's pretty hard not to. He made one nice defensive play where he just simply dumped the puck but it was nice timing and he picked a good spot I think it was in the 2nd period and 2 very good shifts in the 3rd where he was fore checking hard in the offensive zone. That's the only good plays I saw from him all game and believe me I was watching. Also I believe he only won 2 or 3 faceoffs all game

**Edit** I just checked it was 2 out of 7 on the faceoff

As a heuristic, I tend not to believe people who have to say "believe me" to supplement their argument.

 

[MS]

I guess that’s the thing - I agree it’s not that egregious. There’s probably ten other Miller plays this season I can think of that would have merited a benching before this if tied to on-ice performance issues.

It could be that Tocchet picked that specific, almost nothing play to bench Miller, but that seems unlike Tocchet, particularly when it’s the only time he’s benched Miller in recent memory.

It only really makes sense to me if it was tied to Miller being told to worry about his own game and not others’, given it’s the one play when he got burned directing traffic (and particularly directed at Pettersson). Then it’s more of a conduct issue - like being late to practice or a team meeting - than something performance based.

I could be wrong but to me it’s more plausible.

We have no evidence whatsoever for this, but I can accept it as a possibility that it was tied to previous stuff we don't know about. I absolutely cannot equate directing traffic on a PK coverage to missing a team meeting - those are ENTIRELY different things. But again :

There is no way that they didn't have long conversations with a guy like Boeser about compete and engagement and defensive play. And there's no way that some controller disconnects from him didn't happen following those discussions. And Boeser was never benched.

It was the first benching in a long time because it was the first legitimately not good few games that Miller had had in a very long time. Guy carried the team on his back for the previous year and there was no point where you'd even think of benching him.

I'd also add that even if everything you are saying is true, your job is to manage people and connect with them. And if you handle something in a way that you feel is correct but it *feels* unfair to the other parties involved, you haven't handled the situation correctly. And I don't see how any benching of Miller could feel fair to Miller in the context of his vs. Pettersson's play over basically the entire previous calendar year.

 

[Bgav]

Oilers fans acting like garland is the first agitator in nhl history lol

 

[mriswith]

whatever it is, he is not making an effort to score the way he used to do. he is not trying to shoot and is not as dynamic in the ozone as he was.

my best case scenario theory is that because he lost possession and/or the zone so often when taking that shot and missing, he was coached and team-mated out of taking it. there is no doubt that miller's shots hit the net more and hughes shots never leave the zone and have a high chance of being recovered.

the worst case is that injuries or the yips have wrecked it.

I don't think any effort related reason makes hard shots go from constant to never.

If a player knows they can't shoot hard anymore they won't try to shoot as often as they did. If a player knows they can't shoot hard or skate hard and their game was built around being a goalscorer, they'll need to completely revamp how they play.

When the coach and the GM repeatedly call him out and criticize engagement, compete, preparation, 'not moving his feet' and you still think that you know better and there is a 0% chance that this is the case ... you might have your head in the sand.

Every player can always do better. PA's comments very clearly were not a serious analysis of the team.

6 straight 30-40 goal seasons with the high 90th percentile shooting data to support it and skating data the same, off a cliff, while still competing hard defensively, there's no way to interpret that amount of dropoff as effort.

I can't believe guys like Chytil, Kotkaniemi, and Roslovic are being floated around. Hard to fathom the Canucks can go from Pettersson/Miller/Horvat as three center options two season ago to Pettersson/Miller/Lindholm or Suter last season, to potentially Pettersson/Chytil/Suter now.

I'm not surprised. We were offered crap when he had 2 years at 5.25 mil and was a lot younger, it doesn't make sense the offers would have massively improved now that he's 32, signed until 2030 and in a slump.

It should be a no brainer to keep him, I don't get why this isn't something that can be worked out. And if the JT injury rumours turn out to be true I will be furious.

 

[DimitriL07]

Garland’s a legend

 

[Dirtyclapper]

As a heuristic, I tend not to believe people who have to say "believe me" to supplement their argument.

Well.. care to enlighten me on what he did so well then? Generally curious, you don't seem to have any argument at all.

 

[Quinning]

Oilers fans acting like garland is the first agitator in nhl history lol

Garland is an amazing pest. Guys f***ing hate playing against him because he's tiny and they get pissed off when he wins puck battles against them.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Reaction to McDavid actually getting suspended:

And Myers:

 

[MS]

Every player can always do better. PA's comments very clearly were not a serious analysis of the team.

6 straight 30-40 goal seasons with the high 90th percentile shooting data to support it and skating data the same, off a cliff, while still competing hard defensively, there's no way to interpret that amount of dropoff as effort.

Again, both the GM and the head coach have repeated called out Pettersson for compete, preparation, engagement and not moving his feet. They have also repeatedly pooh-poohed the notion of an injury when it would be the blatantly obvious thing to do to take pressure off Pettersson if he was actually hurt.

To be sitting here banging a drum that there's a 'zero percent' chance that what the people closest to the situation think is happening is functionally insane. Like, bonkers.

And again, that Edge data is absolutely worthless. All it does is tells us that Pettersson is playing bad. It doesn't remotely tell us why. If you can find game-by-game data from the 21-22 season, then we can talk. Until then, posting that stuff as evidence he's injured is simply not understanding math or people.

As I've said a lot of times, my best guess is that Pettersson is a very highly-strung, perfectionist kind of guy and when things aren't bouncing quite right (not happy with team direction, not happy with contract talks, dealing with minor injury) he gets lost in his own head and shuts down and has a disproportionately poor reaction to the situation he's facing. And his compete level falls off a cliff, and we've seen this for multiple extended periods in his career now. So the minor knee issue might be a part of the situation, but the real guts of the problem run a lot deeper than that.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

McDavid should have been suspended from the Wild game so the NHL got a chance to “make it right”.

Best part is next time anything happens, McDavid is a repeat offender.

 

[andora]

This compete discussion is interesting and having garland as a different focal point - garland competes.. easy to compare to that

Petey competed on that shift late with 2 hits a turnover etc.. thats compete

 

[bossram]

Well.. care to enlighten me on what he did so well then? Generally curious, you don't seem to have any argument at all.

Just Believe Me.

 

[Dirtyclapper]

Just Believe Me.

Like I said

 

[Diversification]

We have no evidence whatsoever for this, but I can accept it as a possibility that it was tied to previous stuff we don't know about. I absolutely cannot equate directing traffic on a PK coverage to missing a team meeting - those are ENTIRELY different things. But again :

There is no way that they didn't have long conversations with a guy like Boeser about compete and engagement and defensive play. And there's no way that some controller disconnects from him didn't happen following those discussions. And Boeser was never benched.

It was the first benching in a long time because it was the first legitimately not good few games that Miller had had in a very long time. Guy carried the team on his back for the previous year and there was no point where you'd even think of benching him.

I'd also add that even if everything you are saying is true, your job is to manage people and connect with them. And if you handle something in a way that you feel is correct but it *feels* unfair to the other parties involved, you haven't handled the situation correctly. And I don't see how any benching of Miller could feel fair to Miller in the context of his vs. Pettersson's play over basically the entire previous calendar year.

My sense of the issue with Miller (based mainly on some of his own offhand comments in interviews and Brad Richardson's recent remarks) is that he's driven to distraction by the performance of his teammates. He feels an overriding need to tell them what they should be doing better and it's not something that he can just turn off. Let's set aside the notion that he's an imperfect messenger for telling everyone else what they need to do. Let's say for sake of argument that he performs like Sidney Crosby on the ice. Even if that were the case, I can tell you from personal experience that that kind of behavior wears thin quickly. Perhaps it's tolerated more in a professional sports team environment - probably it is because winning trumps everything else. But from just a baseline human-to-human kind of level, no one likes a busy body. It's grating to be around.

So yeah, maybe in that one instance, it was unfair to Miller the way that Tocchet benched him. But if it was in the context of him yet again asserting himself as the self-appointed mayor of everything, I can kind of see it from Tocchet's perspective as well.

 

[kanucks25]

At this point I'm so past the Petey vs Miller debate as we all know what the result will be and the page is going to turn any minute now.

I've moved on to being absolutely terrified about watching this team trying to "compete" with Petey as our 1C the way he's been looking for almost a calendar year now and some team's spare 3rd liner replacing Miller as our 2C.

I don't even see a road that leads us to being a legitimate good team to start next season. This seems like it has the potential to be the start of another dark period.

If Boeser is gone we'll need to add 3-4 top-6 forwards and that top-4 D-man we're still waiting for. Assuming we get a 1st for Boeser and Miller, that gives us 3 1sts and a couple B prospects to get that all done which is a longshot to say the least.

And I highly doubt any of the top free agent forwards this summer will be landing here to help make up for it. Maybe a Zucker type as best.

 

[TruGr1t]

It's sounding like to some degree Miller is the fall guy for: a) Pettersson being a weirdo; b) bad roster construction.

 

[arttk]

Garland’s a legend

Ring of honor

 

[andora]

My sense of the issue with Miller (based mainly on some of his own offhand comments in interviews and Brad Richardson's recent remarks) is that he's driven to distraction by the performance of his teammates. He feels an overriding need to tell them what they should be doing better and it's not something that he can just turn off. Let's set aside the notion that he's an imperfect messenger for telling everyone else what they need to do. Let's say for sake of argument that he performs like Sidney Crosby on the ice. Even if that were the case, I can tell you from personal experience that that kind of behavior wears thin quickly. Perhaps it's tolerated more in a professional sports team environment - probably it is because winning trumps everything else. But from just a baseline human-to-human kind of level, no one likes a busy body. It's grating to be around.

So yeah, maybe in that one instance, it was unfair to Miller the way that Tocchet benched him. But if it was in the context of him yet again asserting himself as the self-appointed mayor of everything, I can kind of see it from Tocchet's perspective as well.

It can last quite some time but it depends on the person better be right a whole hell of a lot more than he is wrong and he better own it every single time

 

[kanucks25]

It's sounding like to some degree Miller is the fall guy for: a) Pettersson being a weirdo; b) bad roster construction.

There is no doubt that the team underperforming has exacerbated things and one of the main reasons they are underperforming is the defence that management put together.

Add in the incredibly incompetent handling of everything related to Miller and Petey PR wise and management deserves a ton of blame for what has transpired.

To me any good will they garnered prior to this season is gone, especially if the return for Miller is disappointing.

My view on them is like neutral now and will shift one way or another depending on what happens over the next 7 months or so.