Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Chaotic Times

[pitseleh]

We have no evidence whatsoever for this, but I can accept it as a possibility that it was tied to previous stuff we don't know about. I absolutely cannot equate directing traffic on a PK coverage to missing a team meeting - those are ENTIRELY different things.

If you’re talking about generally, sure. But Miller has been told not to do this stuff before.

I'd also add that even if everything you are saying is true, your job is to manage people and connect with them. And if you handle something in a way that you feel is correct but it *feels* unfair to the other parties involved, you haven't handled the situation correctly. And I don't see how any benching of Miller could feel fair to Miller in the context of his vs. Pettersson's play over basically the entire previous calendar year.

That’s a fair enough view. I mean yeah if Miller was just viewing this as a performance issue then I could see him being justifiably frustrated. But if what I say is true it’s more than that, and if he doesn’t recognize it, I think it’s on him at that point, and frankly reinforces the off ice concerns about him.

This is a player management and the coach loves, and a coach who is known if nothing else for being a good communicator and forthright with players. The fact he was basically voluntold to go on leave right after it and the team was apparently meeting with the Rangers to discuss trading him the next day suggests it’s a bigger issue.

 

[kanucks25]

Ring of conor

Fixed

 

[Bgav]

It's sounding like to some degree Miller is the fall guy for: a) Pettersson being a weirdo; b) bad roster construction.

not just petey with a problem with JT. There's obviously a lot of stuff that we don't know about

 

[Szechwan]

My sense of the issue with Miller (based mainly on some of his own offhand comments in interviews and Brad Richardson's recent remarks) is that he's driven to distraction by the performance of his teammates. He feels an overriding need to tell them what they should be doing better and it's not something that he can just turn off. Let's set aside the notion that he's an imperfect messenger for telling everyone else what they need to do. Let's say for sake of argument that he performs like Sidney Crosby on the ice. Even if that were the case, I can tell you from personal experience that that kind of behavior wears thin quickly. Perhaps it's tolerated more in a professional sports team environment - probably it is because winning trumps everything else. But from just a baseline human-to-human kind of level, no one likes a busy body. It's grating to be around.

So yeah, maybe in that one instance, it was unfair to Miller the way that Tocchet benched him. But if it was in the context of him yet again asserting himself as the self-appointed mayor of everything, I can kind of see it from Tocchet's perspective as well.

Agreed.

Missing from this discussion also is fact that Tocchet f***in *loves* JT Miller. If he's getting stapled to the bench and Petey isn't, there is almost certainly a good reason - and we clearly aren't always privy to the details behind the scenes.

 

[kanucks25]

It was the first benching in a long time because it was the first legitimately not good few games that Miller had had in a very long time. Guy carried the team on his back for the previous year and there was no point where you'd even think of benching him.

I'd also add that even if everything you are saying is true, your job is to manage people and connect with them. And if you handle something in a way that you feel is correct but it *feels* unfair to the other parties involved, you haven't handled the situation correctly. And I don't see how any benching of Miller could feel fair to Miller in the context of his vs. Pettersson's play over basically the entire previous calendar year.

Bolded isn't necessarily true. If one party involved feels the resolution is unfair that just might be because they're out of touch, not that it was unfair.

The problem with Miller is that when he's bad, he's liability bad. He's teammates rolling their eyes on the bench bad. He's not someone you want around your prospects bad. When Pettersson is bad he's invisible but not a liability and the coach simply isn't going to bench someone who isn't making bad turnovers or line changes or playing well defensively.

I don't blame Miller if his main source of frustration is how shit Petey has been and feeling like perhaps there is a double standard of sorts, but blowing up behind the scenes and having games like he did vs the Kings is an inexcusable way to handle it.

 

[MS]

If you’re talking about generally, sure. But Miller has been told not to do this stuff before.

That’s a fair enough view. I mean yeah if Miller was just viewing this as a performance issue then I could see him being justifiably frustrated. But if what I say is true it’s more than that, and if he doesn’t recognize it, I think it’s on him at that point, and frankly reinforces the off ice concerns about him.

This is a player management and the coach loves, and a coach who is known if nothing else for being a good communicator and forthright with players. The fact he was basically voluntold to go on leave right after it and the team was apparently meeting with the Rangers to discuss trading him the next day suggests it’s a bigger issue.

If Miller had, like, berated Pettersson on the ice or done something egregious I could buy this. But he got the rotation mixed up and said 'Petey, Petey'. Like, again : even if everything you say is true, I don't see how taking that reaction to that action is a logical direct line.

And I'm repeating myself here, but when you're disciplining people it simply has to feel fair to the party involved to be effective. If you're JT Miller and you've just out-competed and out-performed Pettersson in 48 of the last 50 games (and that is not an exaggeration) and then you're the guy getting benched and embarrassed and getting grilled by the media ... there's no way you can feel that you've been treated fairly.

Per the last bit, if he crossed a line after the benching that doesn't really change any of the logic before the benching.

 

[BluesyShoes]

Again, both the GM and the head coach have repeated called out Pettersson for compete, preparation, engagement and not moving his feet. They have also repeatedly pooh-poohed the notion of an injury when it would be the blatantly obvious thing to do to take pressure off Pettersson if he was actually hurt.

To be sitting here banging a drum that there's a 'zero percent' chance that what the people closest to the situation think is happening is functionally insane. Like, bonkers.

And again, that Edge data is absolutely worthless. All it does is tells us that Pettersson is playing bad. It doesn't remotely tell us why. If you can find game-by-game data from the 21-22 season, then we can talk. Until then, posting that stuff as evidence he's injured is simply not understanding math or people.

As I've said a lot of times, my best guess is that Pettersson is a very highly-strung, perfectionist kind of guy and when things aren't bouncing quite right (not happy with team direction, not happy with contract talks, dealing with minor injury) he gets lost in his own head and shuts down and has a disproportionately poor reaction to the situation he's facing. And his compete level falls off a cliff, and we've seen this for multiple extended periods in his career now. So the minor knee issue might be a part of the situation, but the real guts of the problem run a lot deeper than that.

The difference with Miller IMO is that he seems to be a bit of a control freak, especially when things are going badly. This leads to him trying to do too much on the ice, and making mistakes as a result. Calling audibles, yelling at teammates, tantrums on the bench, giving up on plays, taking extra long shifts at critical moments, etc. Granted he is one of the few players that actually can put the team on his back and carry them to a win, it does sometimes make sense to bench that type of player so they take a step back and realize what they can and can't control. The team playing well while Miller was on his leave was probably some good perspective for him.

I think there are times when Miller gets lost in what he can and can't control, and it causes him to lose focus, put his energy into the wrong things, and it makes life miserable for his teammates. At its worst it could interfere with Tocchet's coaching and messaging. That's when he gets benched--it isn't a punishment, it is coaching.

Petey's issues are entirely different, and I think you nailed it on the head with Petey internalizing it all and shutting down. For that, it makes sense to go back to fundamentals and play your way out of it without the pressure of putting up points, which is exactly what Petey has done this season, and exactly what Tocchet has alluded to as "the process with Petey" in the media. Benching him isn't really going to help him play his way out of it, and I think that's why we don't see it with other players.

 

[TruGr1t]

The difference with Miller IMO is that he seems to be a bit of a control freak, especially when things are going badly. This leads to him trying to do too much on the ice, and making mistakes as a result. Calling audibles, yelling at teammates, tantrums on the bench, giving up on plays, taking extra long shifts at critical moments, etc. Granted he is one of the few players that actually can put the team on his back and carry them to a win, it does sometimes make sense to bench that type of player so they take a step back and realize what they can and can't control. The team playing well while Miller was on his leave was probably some good perspective for him.

I think there are times when Miller gets lost in what he can and can't control, and it causes him to lose focus, put his energy into the wrong things, and it makes life miserable for his teammates. At its worst it could interfere with Tocchet's coaching and messaging. That's when he gets benched--it isn't a punishment, it is coaching.

Petey's issues are entirely different, and I think you nailed it on the head with Petey internalizing it all and shutting down. For that, it makes sense to go back to fundamentals and play your way out of it without the pressure of putting up points, which is exactly what Petey has done this season, and exactly what Tocchet has alluded to as "the process with Petey" in the media. Benching him isn't really going to help him play his way out of it, and I think that's why we don't see it with other players.

The only difference I really think there is, in the end, is age. I suspect if they were the same age and same performance as current, Pettersson would be gone. There may confounding factors with Miller, sure, but he is 31 years old and has a lot of sunk years on the contract.

 

[andora]

The only difference I really think there is, in the end, is age. I suspect if they were the same age and same performance as current, Pettersson would be gone. There may confounding factors with Miller, sure, but he is 31 years old and has a lot of sunk years on the contract.

500%

 

[Szechwan]

Per the last bit, if he crossed a line after the benching that doesn't really change any of the logic before the benching.

If nothing makes sense, then imo there is almost certainly more to it.

My guess is he's crossed the line multiple times previously, management tried to paper over it, then he finally blew past it and got pushed to take Leave.

 

[Curm]

Agreed.

Missing from this discussion also is fact that Tocchet f***in *loves* JT Miller. If he's getting stapled to the bench and Petey isn't, there is almost certainly a good reason - and we clearly aren't anyways privy to the details behind the scenes.

He sure does! What do you think the chances are that both Miller and Tocchet were the only two missing from the event last night, the evening after a big win over the Oilers had been preceded by a botched trade, so Tocchet could take one last run at resolving the situation over dinner, vs them actually coincidently missing it with food poisoning? Both made practice today. Just spitballing for kicks.

 

[Szechwan]

The only difference I really think there is, in the end, is age. I suspect if they were the same age and same performance as current, Pettersson would be gone. There may confounding factors with Miller, sure, but he is 31 years old and has a lot of sunk years on the contract.

Not to mention that if you deem his personality is causing issues, he's 31 and very unlikely to change his ways while he's still a professional athlete - I mean, it got him 64 million dollars. He's already known to rub teammates the wrong way on previous teams, if you love Petey for other pieces, he'll likely just find a new target.

Petey has time to grow up and learn to be a better pro.

 

[Diversification]

He sure does! What do you think the chances are that both Miller and Tocchet were the only two missing from the event last night, the evening after a big win over the Oilers had been preceded by a botched trade, so Tocchet could take one last run at resolving the situation over dinner, vs them actually coincidently missing it with food poisoning? Both made practice today. Just spitballing for kicks.

I can buy that. Hashing out over Tocchet's broken spaghetti special.

 

[LemonSauceD]

My bold prediction is whichever team acquires Miller (besides Rangers) will win the cup. Miller would be the best forward to be moved since Matthew Tkachuk and it sucks we won’t be getting full value in return.

 

[Szechwan]

He sure does! What do you think the chances are that both Miller and Tocchet were the only two missing from the event last night, the evening after a big win over the Oilers had been preceded by a botched trade, so Tocchet could take one last run at resolving the situation over dinner, vs them actually coincidently missing it with food poisoning? Both made practice today. Just spitballing for kicks.

You could very well be right, but if dinner with Tocc had a chance at fixing things, he should have been at JT's cooking a f***ing Turkey dinner for Canadian Thanksgiving, American Thanksgiving, and Christmas. Too little too late.

 

[VanillaCoke]

At this point I'm so past the Petey vs Miller debate as we all know what the result will be and the page is going to turn any minute now.

I've moved on to being absolutely terrified about watching this team trying to "compete" with Petey as our 1C the way he's been looking for almost a calendar year now and some team's spare 3rd liner replacing Miller as our 2C.

I don't even see a road that leads us to being a legitimate good team to start next season. This seems like it has the potential to be the start of another dark period.

If Boeser is gone we'll need to add 3-4 top-6 forwards and that top-4 D-man we're still waiting for. Assuming we get a 1st for Boeser and Miller, that gives us 3 1sts and a couple B prospects to get that all done which is a longshot to say the least.

And I highly doubt any of the top free agent forwards this summer will be landing here to help make up for it. Maybe a Zucker type as best.

Calling it now if the Miller return is a weak 2C, more of a 3C, canucks will make another deal very shortly afterwards for a top six C.

I'm betting on Brock Nelson, and the more silence the more I start to believe it.

Still alot of time between now and tdl, let alone next seasons start, much will be changed including probably sixty-six percent of the lotto line.

 

[racerjoe]

I've explained multiple times the issues with the Edge data but you guys just don't want to hear it.

And per your initial point, the notion that the Canucks would know that their $11 million superstar was injured but would consistently deny it, allow him to get savaged for his poor play when they could easily take that heat off him, and then repeatedly criticize his compete and preparation ... makes literally zero sense. Take your head out of the sand, man.

Why… the just denied miller was hurt, and I am pretty sure he is…

Also why are you clumping last year in with this year… you were wrong last year he was hurt. We know this. It is separate data from this year.

Both players have been bad this year, Miller has been worse, by far… he has also had games where he has been better. However the lows he hits just negate any highs we do get.

On top of this there are plenty of reports that it isn’t just Pettersson who is tired of him.

There is plenty of clear bias on this board, and I know people will think I am being biased for Petey as I have defended him, but the truth is the last 6 months, the majority of (not all) have been biased against Petey and pro miller.

If they were both receiving equal criticism it would probably be fine. They both would deserve it, but it just hasn’t. Even that way the last 6 months.

 

[andora]

Not to mention that if you deem his personality is causing issues, he's 31 and very unlikely to change his ways while he's still a professional athlete - it got him 64 million dollars.

Petey has time to grow up and learn to be a better pro.

Well less likely based on percentages being 31 you have plenty of time as well. Unique situations that may not present themselves for one person until they are 31 whereas another person who is mid-20s gets it is valid.

I was lucky and unlucky enough to have numerous things happen to me between 15 and 25 that put me ahead of the Curve but it's not until the last 2 years that other situations have truly shifted my method of thinking and I'm 41.

Miller as a player is never gone through what he has in the last 3 years in terms of becoming a true emotional leader of a team in the NHL that can have success but then adversity hits we're arguably your peer in talent and a fact clashes

While players do have a shelf life I recognize that 31 is not too late just depends on what said player decides to do with it

 

[kanucks25]

Calling it now if the Miller return is a weak 2C, more of a 3C, canucks will make another deal very shortly afterwards for a top six C.

I'm betting on Vrock Nelson, and the more silence the more I start to believe it.

Still alot of time between now and tdl, let alone next seasons start, much will be changed including probably sixty-six percent of the lotto line.

Nelson will be 34 to start next season and doesn't have a contract. Scary target unless he's coming very cheap, like almost free.

 

[supercanuck]

If nothing makes sense, then imo there is almost certainly more to it.

My guess is he's crossed the line multiple times previously, management tried to paper over it, then he finally blew past it and got pushed to take Leave.

I think you're right. You don't ask your top 6 centre to take a month off if it's something simple. Something happened that pushed things over the edge. The guy has run himself out of 2, soon to be 3, dressing rooms. I'm surprised he's not seen more of a Dubois vs the hero/victim some are making him out to be. This is a team that has set up everything for him to succeed (traded captain, perfect coach for his style, playing with QH and Brock), and he explodes at the first sign of trouble.

 

[Bgav]

My bold prediction is whichever team acquires Miller (besides Rangers) will win the cup. Miller would be the best forward to be moved since Matthew Tkachuk and it sucks we won’t be getting full value in return.

this made me go back and look at all the trades the last few years.. holy f*** the nhl is boring. so many irrelevant trades

 

[VanillaCoke]

Nelson will be 34 to start next season and doesn't have a contract. Scary target unless he's coming very cheap, like almost free.

I thought all of that was common knowledge...but he's still good and i could see mgmt being interested.
Certainly should come cheaper than eight million if he'd sign extension here, idk being a career east coaster.

If we're rolling with the waif we're going to need some heft behind him.

 

[Curm]

You could very well be right, but if dinner with Tocc had a chance at fixing things, he should have been at JT's cooking a f***ing Turkey dinner for Canadian Thanksgiving, American Thanksgiving, and Christmas. Too little too late.

I don't think turkey is Tocchet's specialty, but I'm sure there was at least a White Spot in the vicinity.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Miller is getting old so let's get rid of him. Proceeds to sign Brock Nelson. God this would be so Canucks.

 

[PavelBure10]

I just wish Pettersson and Miller would kiss and makeup. The rumored names of Chytil, Roslovic and Kotkieniemi are not worth the breakup of one of our disgruntled top 2 centerman. The names suggested in a potential return for Miller are incredibly sad. These are names that should be rumored for Hoglander not a 100 point centerman.