Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Chaotic Times

[CanucksSayEh]

Miller can play hard tomorrow and be one of the best forwards in the league.

If EP is already consistently putting in a full effort... well then he kinda just sucks.

 

[Curm]

I expected McDavid to get 1 game and Myers 3, Oilers fans and media are probably blowing a gasket.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I expected McDavid to get 1 game and Myers 3, Oilers fans and media are probably blowing a gasket.

I especially loved guys like Chris Pronger weighing in saying they loved it. It was pretty rich coming from the guy who's strategy was to hack and slash so much that the refs couldn't possibly call it all.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Just a gentle reminder to all here - do NOT go to the Oilers forum to gloat, troll, or what have you.

It won't end well.

 

[Hodgy]

I especially loved guys like Chris Pronger weighing in saying they loved it. It was pretty rich coming from the guy who's strategy was to hack and slash so much that the refs couldn't possibly call it all.

Sometimes he kicked players with his skate too.

 

[ephmrl]

Stu Grimson on NHL Network just compared the Myers cross check to the McSorely/Brashear incident

 

[valkynax]

I especially loved guys like Chris Pronger weighing in saying they loved it. It was pretty rich coming from the guy who's strategy was to hack and slash so much that the refs couldn't possibly call it all.

Once again this algorithm works!

Only caveat is that McD was not suspended often, but he did get one suspension before.

And like you said, it ended with "DAMN IT PRONGER!"

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Stu Grimson on NHL Network just compared the Myers cross check to the McSorely/Brashear incident

Think Stu took too many shots to the head.

 

[Dana Murzyn]

On my tally board the Myers cross check is slightly more boneheaded than the McDavid one. McDavid’s was more “in the moment“ and was the result of an absolutely masterful pest job by noted irritant Garland. Myers’s was well after the whistle and was a response to that non-entity Evan Bouchard skating towards him in slow motion. Myers wins the bonehead prize and — ha ha! — they both get 3 games. I’ll take it.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Just a gentle reminder to all here - do NOT go to the Oilers forum to gloat, troll, or what have you.

It won't end well.

As every grown man should already know...

Look but don't touch.




(Look = glance)
(and dont even look if your wife is within three - five hundred feet of you, it won't end well either.)

 

[MS]

I don’t think there’s a problem with directing traffic, but (maybe I see it differently) when I watch the play it looks like he gets mixed up because he’s too busy directing traffic.

The public info about Miller has been that he needs to worry less about what others are doing and focus on his own play and I’m sure he’s been told as much. There’s already been the Schenn and Delia incidents.

We probably won’t ever know, but I don’t think that it is a surprise that that specific incident triggered a benching when so many others didn’t.

I mean either way, nothing there was particularly egregious.

But again, the context here is that Miller had been consistently our best forward and 2nd best player for 100+ games dating back through the start of the previous year. There have been tons of lazy plays and bad games and bad stretches and controller disconnects from pretty much the entire veteran core of the team. And nobody else was ever benched.

If you're JT Miller and then you get benched and publicly embarrassed for *that*? I totally understand why you'd be really, really unhappy and feel like you'd been treated very unfairly. I think Tocchet just totally misread the situation and the player and how the context was totally different than the last time Miller was benched, when it had worked very well.

To me it felt like a dad giving the 'strongest kid' the harshest discipline 'because he can handle it' and not understanding how it would actually be internalized.

 

[Curm]

I especially loved guys like Chris Pronger weighing in saying they loved it. It was pretty rich coming from the guy who's strategy was to hack and slash so much that the refs couldn't possibly call it all.

No kidding, he made of a career of it, but I will give him props for running Justin Bieber.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

On my tally board the Myers cross check is slightly more boneheaded than the McDavid one. McDavid’s was more “in the moment“ and was the result of an absolutely masterful pest job by noted irritant Garland. Myers’s was well after the whistle and was a response to that non-entity Evan Bouchard skating towards him in slow motion. Myers wins the bonehead prize and — ha ha! — they both get 3 games. I’ll take it.

I agree. Looking at the two in isolation, I thought Myers' was worse - hit Bouchard straight in the face, while Garland seemed to have some of his absorbed by his helmet.

Also, putting myself in Oiler fan shoes - if say, Darnell Nurse cross checked Quinn Hughes in the face like that, I'd lose my mind as well.

 

[Timmer44]

On my tally board the Myers cross check is slightly more boneheaded than the McDavid one. McDavid’s was more “in the moment“ and was the result of an absolutely masterful pest job by noted irritant Garland. Myers’s was well after the whistle and was a response to that non-entity Evan Bouchard skating towards him in slow motion. Myers wins the bonehead prize and — ha ha! — they both get 3 games. I’ll take it.

Garland wasn't looking, at least Myers did it face to face. But whatever, they had to match the suspensions or else they would look biased.

Oilers wont mind this. Gives Mcdavid a week off. They are still on track to win the division, imo.

 

[mriswith]

The idea that a guy who for six straight seasons paced 30-40 goals because he loved to shoot, shot hard and shot often has completely lost his shot because of effort is nonsense. Same with the skating. Especially when it's obvious he's competing hard on defense. The NHL edge data for the shot is nearly as bad as the skating. We got one vintage EP shot a month ago and then minutes later he was out a couple games for injury.

It's not effort for EP. There's a zero percent chance that's what it is. What it actually is, who knows.

 

[Peen]

I agree. Looking at the two in isolation, I thought Myers' was worse - hit Bouchard straight in the face, while Garland seemed to have some of his absorbed by his helmet.

Also, putting myself in Oiler fan shoes - if say, Darnell Nurse cross checked Quinn Hughes in the face like that, I'd lose my mind as well.

I honestly thought Myers should have gotten 3 and McDavid 2 for that reason. Garland was also right in the mud there - even if it was unsuspecting. While Bouchard was uninvolved and had no interest in anything and Myers just went for it unprovoked

 

[Hodgy]

The idea that a guy who for six straight seasons paced 30-40 goals because he loved to shoot, shot hard and shot often has completely lost his shot because of effort is nonsense. Same with the skating. Especially when it's obvious he's competing hard on defense. The NHL edge data for the shot is nearly as bad as the skating. We got one vintage EP shot a month ago and then minutes later he was out a couple games for injury.

It's not effort for EP. There's a zero percent chance that's what it is. What it actually is, who knows.

Pettersson isn't even getting into a position to use his shot. So I don't think its worth even discussing his shot much.

You seem very confident for someone whose opinion is inconsistent with the GM of this team (i.e., Allvin generally calling him out for preparation, mental fortitude and compete).

 

[MS]

The idea that a guy who for six straight seasons paced 30-40 goals because he loved to shoot, shot hard and shot often has completely lost his shot because of effort is nonsense. Same with the skating. Especially when it's obvious he's competing hard on defense. The NHL edge data for the shot is nearly as bad as the skating. We got one vintage EP shot a month ago and then minutes later he was out a couple games for injury.

It's not effort for EP. There's a zero percent chance that's what it is. What it actually is, who knows.

When the coach and the GM repeatedly call him out and criticize engagement, compete, preparation, 'not moving his feet' and you still think that you know better and there is a 0% chance that this is the case ... you might have your head in the sand.

 

[Curm]

I can't believe guys like Chytil, Kotkaniemi, and Roslovic are being floated around. Hard to fathom the Canucks can go from Pettersson/Miller/Horvat as three center options two season ago to Pettersson/Miller/Lindholm or Suter last season, to potentially Pettersson/Chytil/Suter now.

 

[bossram]

Did you even watch the last game? Pettersson was floating around most the game besides about 10 minutes he came alive in the 3rd. I watched him float around the Blue line waiting for his wingers to dig the puck out of our end, good use of our 2 best wingers I guess.

Yes. And I'm going to stick with my own assessment of Petey's play vs. yours. You only noticed "hitzzz go boom" which is an indication of your evaluative ability.

 

[bossram]

The "competing" vs. "not competing" argument is a lot more nuanced than I think you are making it out to be. On the one hand, if you are simply equating "competing" with "visibly putting in effort on the ice" then I agree with you. Because I think Pettersson truly is trying when he is on the ice. He's obviously lost a ton of confidence, but I do think if you asked Pettersson whether is is giving 100% he would say yes. And I think that may be correct.

But I think "competing" is a lot more wholistic than that, and includes off ice preparation including both training and mental preparation. The "competing" doesn't just start on the ice, and in fact, never really ends. And I think most players in the NHL, and certainly most top players in the NHL, needs to be constantly "competing" and trying to get better day after day, and in fact, I think it is only those players with an incredibly high standard of success that are able to continue to excel and in fact improve. You can think of players like the Sedins that really demonstrate this quality. And I think if you don't have this high standard for success, and don't consistently apply yourself towards that standard, then you will regress even if you look to be "trying" on the ice.

And unfortunately, the regression isn't overnight, its a slow steady process. So a player can continue to get statistical results, for the most part, while this regression sets in. And then the statistical results start to wane, and the player enters a slump, and it becomes really difficult for the player to work himself out of hte slump as he has slowly regressed for days and weeks.

And this is what I think may have happened to Pettersson and I said this much months ago, and the pro-Pettersson crowd laughed at me. But, since then, Allvin has publicly came out and made very similar statement.

So, to make a long story short, I agree that Pettersson is "trying" on the ice, but I don't think he is "trying" or "competing" enough from a longer term wholistic approach. And I think this is why Pettersson hasn't been benched because there is no singular moment where he's given as bad as an effort as Miller has.

Neither of us have any insight into what the players are doing off the ice. What we do know is that Petey's offseason training was interrupted by his knee injury, at his own admission. Other than that, I don't know how you are going to conclude Petey isn't "competing off the ice". What we agree on is that Petey is trying on the ice. This is what I take issue with people saying he isn't.

Yes, I agree. Miller has clear moments on the ice of inexcusable play. That's why he doesn't get a pass from me.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I've mostly stayed out of this but I'd be curious to hear what your issue is with the Edge data?

I’m more of an eye test guy, so mind the bias, my two cents is a lot of the data isn’t for technological illiterates such as myself. And it’s probably a Me Thing, but the data needs someone smarter to interpret it because otherwise it’s just - yeah Kreider is a 50-goal scorer but there is more context to that example. There often is no glossary of what each computation entails, why the stat might be irrelevant or meaningless (like PDO).

Like, plus-minus used to be a meaningful stat until someone came along and pointed out why it sucks.

 

[PavelBure10]

I can't believe guys like Chytil, Kotkaniemi, and Roslovic are being floated around. Hard to fathom the Canucks can go from Pettersson/Miller/Horvat as three center options two season ago to Pettersson/Miller/Lindholm or Suter last season, to potentially Pettersson/Chytil/Suter now.

I agree. Roslovic, Kotkieniemi and Chytil are guys who should have been rumored in a potential Hoglander deal "before this season", not JT Miller.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The idea that a guy who for six straight seasons paced 30-40 goals because he loved to shoot, shot hard and shot often has completely lost his shot because of effort is nonsense. Same with the skating. Especially when it's obvious he's competing hard on defense. The NHL edge data for the shot is nearly as bad as the skating. We got one vintage EP shot a month ago and then minutes later he was out a couple games for injury.

It's not effort for EP. There's a zero percent chance that's what it is. What it actually is, who knows.

whatever it is, he is not making an effort to score the way he used to do. he is not trying to shoot and is not as dynamic in the ozone as he was.

my best case scenario theory is that because he lost possession and/or the zone so often when taking that shot and missing, he was coached and team-mated out of taking it. there is no doubt that miller's shots hit the net more and hughes shots never leave the zone and have a high chance of being recovered.

the worst case is that injuries or the yips have wrecked it.

 

[bossram]

if i misconstrued your argument, apologies, but there was nothing wilful about it. your argument was extremely selective. pettersson is making very little effort at what he does best and what he is paid to do. the fact he is making a reasonable professional effort to be a responsible third line checker does not change that. loui eriksson after we signed him stopped trying hard to score greasy goals but he played reasonably hard at being a responsible third line checker and superficially you could not fault his professionalism. however, he was not paid to be a third line winger and you can't tell me that something didn't happen to make eriksson consciously play out his career the way he did. maybe fear of an injury. maybe he actually lost it. maybe a problem with the team or teammates. who knows. all i know is he quit being the guy we signed.

miller otoh still shows us the game we know half the time and we have seen miller do this and snap out of it.

My definition of competing is not that "selective". It basically boils down to giving an honest, reasonable, professional effort on the ice.

Your definition more or less seems to encompass that a player cannot have some degree of dip in effectiveness, regardless of whether or not they're trying.