Growing to be a Playoff Performer

[SheldonJPlankton]

Yeah, I guess this is why teams trying to get over a hump often bring in vets and coaches with rings; in the hopes that they can raise that bar internally and that players don't have to go elsewhere to discover that next gear they need come playoffs.

O'Rielly, Foligno, Acciari, and Edmundson being some recent Leaf examples. Perry and Henrique (no ring, but lots of experience) in Edmonton. Maybe Berube makes a difference in TO?

Kessel...was going nowhere fast, traded to Pittsburgh...carried by Crosby, Letang, Malkin, and a bunch of luck. 3 Rings later...

 

[GOilers88]

"We have to consider the McDavid effect here as well of course."

///

you could have left it at that. there is no other reason.

McDavid isn't responsible for Hyman developing his game the way he has. What a lame way to discredit all the work the man has put in to bettering himself.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Edmonton was capable of winning a cup without Gretzky.

Edmonton was a deep enough and strong enough team to win without Gretzky but everyone always leaves out that they got players in return for him too.

The whole kid line that was a big part of the 1990 win came over either in the Gretzky deal or for the 100 pt center (Carson) that Edmonton got in that deal.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Maturity and experience play a role, if you don’t have it after that, you probably aren’t getting there.

 

[conFABulator]

Kessel...was going nowhere fast, traded to Pittsburgh...carried by Crosby, Letang, Malkin, and a bunch of luck. 3 Rings later...

Great example. No one ever suggested that he changed his game at all, he just got to play it in a very different environment.

 

[njdevils1982]

McDavid isn't responsible for Hyman developing his game the way he has. What a lame way to discredit all the work the man has put in to bettering himself.

it's ok. we can have different opinions on the matter.

 

[conFABulator]

McDavid isn't responsible for Hyman developing his game the way he has. What a lame way to discredit all the work the man has put in to bettering himself.

Hyman is very lucky to be riding shotgun for McDavid, no doubt about it and his stats show this.

However, "luck" is where "hard work" meets "opportunity". He put the work in and deserves all the good fortune he receives.

 

[Golden_Jet]

McDavid isn't responsible for Hyman developing his game the way he has. What a lame way to discredit all the work the man has put in to bettering himself.

Both are true, it’s not just or or the other.

 

[GOilers88]

Both are true, it’s not just or or the other.

Absolutely. But ending the discussion simply by saying McDavid factor is why I took umbridge with it.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Great example. No one ever suggested that he changed his game at all, he just got to play it in a very different environment.

Exactly.

Boston wanted more from Kessel than he could give. That brought on poor work ethic and bad attitude from Kessel and Boston sent him packing. Toronto wanted more from Kessel than he could give. More poor work ethic and bad attitude followed and it was Toronto's turn to push him out the door.

Pittsburgh just needed Kessel to be Kessel...and he thrived as a complimentary player playing in the shadows of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, etc. Kessel finally found his niche.

 

[AvroArrow]

Exactly.

Boston wanted more from Kessel than he could give. That brought on poor work ethic and bad attitude from Kessel and Boston sent him packing. Toronto wanted more from Kessel than he could give. More poor work ethic and bad attitude followed and it was Toronto's turn to push him out the door.

Pittsburgh just needed Kessel to be Kessel...and he thrived as a complimentary player playing in the shadows of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, etc. Kessel finally found his niche.

Kessel wanted more money than Boston was willing to give, that's why he was traded. And Boston had lots of forward depth at the time, had absolutely nothing to do with his work ethic or attitude, Bruins fans were huge on him and Leafs paid a huge price to get him.

Kessel was over PPG for Toronto in his prime and played well in the playoffs. He was arguably a top 5 RW in the league in his prime with us. The guy went over PPG playing with scrubs. Leafs were going into rebuild mode, Kessel was in win now mode, a trade was made with a fitting partner.

Kessel continued playing at an elite level and was instrumental to both cup wins, he legitimately could have won a Conn Smythe as well, gave it to Sid cause he plays C. Kessel was significantly better than Letang (who didn't even play in 1 playoff run, did you even watch??) And IMO was better than Malkin for those cup runs. He was not a "Complementary*" player.

What a complete joke of a post

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

My question remains is can that change in a player? Can they learn to sacrifice? What it takes to win the big games? Or do you either have this or not by the time you get to the NHL. Barkov came up as an example, was he ever considered too soft for the playoffs or did he just not produce points in the early years?

That is more of a "person" question than a hockey question IMO. Truly chang6ng who you are is very difficult and requires an understanding of why you need to improve. People who are arrogant very often don't see the need to change because it is someone else's fault. Not saying MM is arrogant, but he's 27 YO and hasn't seen the need to adapt his game yet.

 

[conFABulator]

That is more of a "person" question than a hockey question IMO. Truly chang6ng who you are is very difficult and requires an understanding of why you need to improve. People who are arrogant very often don't see the need to change because it is someone else's fault. Not saying MM is arrogant, but he's 27 YO and hasn't seen the need to adapt his game yet.

I am not disagreeing with your larger point that this is a person question more than a hockey question.

I am not sure I agree that MM hasn't seen the need to adapt. At times in the playoffs he doesn't look like himself out there, he looks like someone who knows he should be doing something differently but doesn't know exactly what that is. He looks nervous and tentative as a result. I am talking about giveaways, missed assignments, and penalties for shooting the puck over the glass.

Either way, the result is the same. Although I guess if he knows he needs to change his game level at least that is something. There have been a lot of good posts in this thread and many have pointed to the environment and circumstances changing and not the the player. The Leafs can hope Berube brings this and that they don't have to watch Marner have Kadri or Hyman type playoff success somewhere else.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

This is an interesting perspective and, if I understand you correctly suggests that players CAN become better playoff performers even if they were at one point considered not be strong in the post season. Your theory is that these players did it because they had coaches that allowed or encouraged it through their systems and approach.

It's not JUST that.

Jonathan Marchessault isn't some bruising big-hitting grinding player who wins all puck battles.

He won a Conn Smyth by being a slippery player who could get behind defenses and capitalize on open looks. His coaches designed plays to get him into open areas of the ice to rip it past the goalie in prime locations.

Marchessault spilled the beans on the team strategy against the Oilers:

Marchessault spilled the beans on exactly how Vegas knew it could beat Edmonton

Are Skinner, Nurse and Ceci getting too much blame? Definitely

edmontonjournal.com

When I watch Mitch Marner being asked to take a massive hit to make a defensive play, or win board battles, or how he's never given time or space and asked by his coach to battle through it, I think its a massive disservice to the skills that MM actually brings and doesn't play to his strengths at all. It plays completely to his weaknesses, and snufffs his strengths.

That's just terrible coaching.

The problem for the Leafs, is I don't think Berube is any different than Keefe. He's a rigid systems coach who forces other teams into playing into HIS system, rather than an adapt.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Let me outline a very simple example of what I mean by "systems coach" vs "adaptable coach"

What happened these playoffs was the "Cherry Picker" play sort of took over.
This play wiped out Vegas, Toronto, Colorado:


The Oilers employed it against the Panthers in game 4, and were able to come back and tie the series.

Maurice and Knoblach were the 2 coaches that developed counters for the cherry-picker. The rest of the rest of the teams refused to adapt, and essentially died by this one play.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

How about Hall of Famer Jean Ratelle?

He started his career on the Rangers. Through age 34, he scored 42 points in 65 playoff games (0.65 PPG) compared to 0.95 PPG in the regular season. This is a approaching all-time choker territory (Dionne, Yashin, etc).

He was traded to Boston when he was 35. Over the rest of his career, he scored 56 points in 58 playoff games (0.97 PPG). That's still down slightly compared to what he produced in the regular season (1.07 PPG) but it's much closer.

How much of that is due to Ratelle maturing as player and leader, and how much of that is due to him suddenly playing on a team with much stronger depth? I'm sure it's a bit of both.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

I am not disagreeing with your larger point that this is a person question more than a hockey question.

I am not sure I agree that MM hasn't seen the need to adapt. At times in the playoffs he doesn't look like himself out there, he looks like someone who knows he should be doing something differently but doesn't know exactly what that is. He looks nervous and tentative as a result. I am talking about giveaways, missed assignments, and penalties for shooting the puck over the glass.

Either way, the result is the same. Although I guess if he knows he needs to change his game level at least that is something. There have been a lot of good posts in this thread and many have pointed to the environment and circumstances changing and not the the player. The Leafs can hope Berube brings this and that they don't have to watch Marner have Kadri or Hyman type playoff success somewhere else.

If MM has seen the need to adapt, it hasn't translated to how he plays come play-off time. The Leafs have consistently failed to adjust in the play-off's. You can blame that on Keefe, on Dubas for the team he gave Keefe, or the individual players themselves. Last year wasn't the first time that MM came up small when the team really needed him. From the games I saw - he played his usual perimeter game.

I'll use my "I" statements. I know I should lose weight. To do so requires hard work and discipline to do what I know I should do. The fact that I procrastinate or make excuses to not do so is entirely on me. The Leafs under Keefe have talked about "scoring play-off style goals", but when push comes to shove it seems like the guys who need to be the difference makers don't want to play the way that's necessary to win. If history has taught us anything - that can be true until it's not (DET after years of futility, WASH in 2018 after a long stretch of coming up small, etc.).

 

[conFABulator]

If MM has seen the need to adapt, it hasn't translated to how he plays come play-off time. The Leafs have consistently failed to adjust in the play-off's. You can blame that on Keefe, on Dubas for the team he gave Keefe, or the individual players themselves. Last year wasn't the first time that MM came up small when the team really needed him. From the games I saw - he played his usual perimeter game.

I'll use my "I" statements. I know I should lose weight. To do so requires hard work and discipline to do what I know I should do. The fact that I procrastinate or make excuses to not do so is entirely on me. The Leafs under Keefe have talked about "scoring play-off style goals", but when push comes to shove it seems like the guys who need to be the difference makers don't want to play the way that's necessary to win. If history has taught us anything - that can be true until it's not (DET after years of futility, WASH in 2018 after a long stretch of coming up small, etc.).

To be clear, we agree. Marner has not shown a change in his game that brings playoff results. I am just saying that it appears to me that he knows he has to change his play. He just doesn't know how and it's possible that this compounds and makes the results worse.