Gretzky's goals against Hasek, Roy, Brodeur...

[The Panther]

You could probably put Gretzky's goal-scoring into four levels:

1) All-Time Elite
January 1981 to December 1987
2) All Star Level
October 1979 to December 1980 & January 1988 to February 1991
3) Average 1st-line center
March 1991 to March 1994
4) 2nd-liner
April 1994 to April 1999

When he faced Hasek in the NHL, he'd have been in "level 3" a bit, but mostly "level 4", and almost entirely "level 4" against Brodeur. Mostly "level 2, 3 and 4" against Roy, with a touch of "level 1".

 

[JianYang]

To my mind a slapped from the boards was quite a routine play back in the day and depending on your speed and angles you could really fool a smaller goalie relying on his own angles, slight frame, poor equipment and unreliable reflexes. A lot of the evolution in goaltending had to do with playing those high percentage plays with some systematic technique, blocking off the lower portion of the net, etc.

I think slapshots in general are indeed dying. How many of the young star dmen in this game have a devastating slap shot that they unload from the point?

It seems like today's star dman are more interested in using their mobility to work towards other areas of the ice and explore different options. They play a different game.

Is the Shea Weber style of dominance a dying breed?

 

[Albatros]

I think when looking at Gretzkys dominance the quality of goaltending is irrelevent. Those were the BEST goaltenders of that time. All the players played against those same goaltenders. Nobody came remotley close to scoring the amount of goals and points Gretzky did btw 1980 and 1987. I think you could argue that Gretzky had an easier time if others of that time were also in his neighbourhood. But that is not the case. You could say that if he was playing against the goalies of today that he would have 150 pts instead of 215. But that is irrelevent because if that were the case everyone else would be getting less goals/points as well. Imagine 30 years from now when the goaltenders are much better than today and people are saying that Ovi is not as good as his stats suggest because the goaltenders weren't very good.... What an insult!

How is the general weakness of 1980s goaltending irrelevant? Rather it means that all scoring from that era has to be seen in that context. Regarding Ovechkin it's by no means certain that a similar revolution will occur the next 30 years, likely it would require very significant rule changes and groundbreaking new equipment technologies.

 

[MadLuke]

I think when looking at Gretzkys dominance the quality of goaltending is irrelevent.

Possibly like you say all players played against the same goaltender (and had the same added time & space versus today).

It is only relevant if it helped Gretzky more (say if it style of scoring goals was less robust to how he scored them,) Lemieux/Pavel Bure style of scoring for example didn't seam to mind goaltending evolution, Gretzky was still able to score with some impressive slapshot with the Rangers toward the end in the playoff against elite goaltender like Vanbiesbrouck and would have probably adapted a different style was not working growing up....

But it is theorically possible that change in the league defense/goaltending would have hurt differently certain player, a bit like the post lockout rules helped some of them more than others.

 

[The Panther]

I personally don't think the changes in goaltender-style/personnel had any effect whatsoever on Gretzky's goal-scoring ability. I mean, had he been 21 in 1999, he wasn't going to score 92 goals, but neither would any other player in history.

Gretzky's reduction in (relative) goal-scoring in the 90s is mainly down to two factors (I mean, besides age):
1) He stopped going to the front of the net and became a perimiter-player
2) He took fewer shots on goal (and those he took were from greater distance because of [1])

Gretzky's shooting percentage in his first twelve NHL seasons (i.e., his prime) varied from 14.9% (the year he scored 215 points!) to 26.7% -- the only time he led the League -- in 1983-84. So, there's an enormous difference already, during his peak years, between 14.9% and 26.7%, and obviously this huge difference has nothing to do with goaltending.

Players Gretzky had a higher shooting-percentage than, in 1991:
Steve Yzerman
Pat Lafontaine
Pierre Turgeon
Sergei Fedorov
Vince Damphousse

I note these players because I don't think anyone accuses them of having trouble scoring on 90s' goaltenders. Gretzky was having better results against 1991 goaltenders than all of them were.

By 1994 (three years into his post-prime and the last time he won the scoring title), Wayne's shooting percentage had dropped to 16.3% (though it was over 17% in late March, before he phoned-in the rest of the season). But how does this compare with his younger peers? Players Gretzky had a higher shooting-percentage than, in 1994:
Pavel Bure
Brett Hull
Joe Sakic
Brendan Shanahan
Theoren Fleury
Kevin Stevens
Doug Gilmour

Even by 1998, when he was considered done as a goal-scoring threat and had one foot in retirement, his shooting-percentage was within 1 percent or so of players like Hull, Yzerman, and Forsberg (and it was better than Fleury, Sakic, Modano).

The main difference was the distance of his shooting and the sheer number of shots. It appears that in the 90s, he averaged around 150-170 shots on net per 80-ish games, whereas in the mid-80s he was putting around 350 shots on goal per season.

(Another point to consider is that, as we know, Wayne's ES-production fell off a cliff after September 1991. Thereafter, he was much more dependent on the PP to supply a lot of his points. And, as you may not know, he had never been aggressive about scoring goals on the PP. In 1984-85, he tallied 73 goals and only 8 were on the PP! Anyway, point being, since more of his points were on the PP after 1991, it follows that his proportion of assist-to-goals would also get bigger.)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think slapshots in general are indeed dying. It seems like today's star dman are more interested in using their mobility to work towards other areas of the ice and explore different options. They play a different game.

Is the Shea Weber style of dominance a dying breed?

Everything that dies some day comes.

 

[MadLuke]

2) He took fewer shots on goal (and those he took were from greater distance because of [1])

I would be curious of how much this is in part due because a type of shoot that was worth taking stopped to be or not (that part of the debate, would is tool kit have made him able to be the player with the most shoot in the league season after season with high enough chance shot against post 1997 goaltenders or not).

 

[The Panther]

Just bumping this old thread to share a clip or two.

Here's Wayne scoring on Hasek @ Buffalo, April 4th 1997:



Gretzky scored a vintage goal vs. Hasek on November 28th 1997, where he came down the left wing and ripped a slapper over Hasek's left shoulder. I saw the goal a few months ago for the first time, but I cannot find it now! (That was the only game of the 1997-98 season -- in four tries -- when the hapless Rangers managed to beat Hasek even once!)

 

[Big Phil]

I can remember right at the end of Wayne's career he scored a goal on Belfour - and that was his first he had ever scored on him. Belfour said something to the effect of "You can't keep him off the scoresheet forever." November 7th, 1997 was the date. So yeah, he had one more year after that.

I don't think he ever had a goalie that had his number, was there? Mike Bossy once was asked what goalie had his number and he responded in classic Bossy fashion by saying "I averaged 57 goals a year, not many". True enough. So I would assume Gretzky had this same sort of thing. If I recall, Richard Brodeur and Mike Vernon were scored on him more than any goalie if that is true. Probably based on the amount of times they met. I seem to think Mike Liut was a victim of his as well. One team that did well against him until the 1984 Cup final was the Islanders. They somehow managed to contain him rather well.

 

[MadLuke]

I don't think he ever had a goalie that had his number, was there?

There was a thread were it was mentioned, Belfour certainly was one, he had very little points and a single goal against him.

 

[hacksaw7]

I do recall going to a game in NJ...possible 1998 or his final season of 1999. The Devils had the game locked up but Gretzky got a late breakaway and beat Brodeur over his glove to make it 5-2 or something

 

[hacksaw7]

Here's a classic Gretzky goal vs. Hasek during the 97-98 season

 

[The Panther]

Here's a classic Gretzky goal vs. Hasek during the 97-98 season

Thanks! That's the one I described, above, but couldn't find the other day.

That's such a quintessential Gretzky shot, and that's likely one of the last times he scored a goal like that in his career.

 

[Big Phil]

I do have to wonder, with the goalies going down so quickly these days, is it possible Gretzky would have even MORE luck scoring on those accurate slappers he always did? Who knows, but it never seems to matter with the greats.

 

[The Panther]

I do have to wonder, with the goalies going down so quickly these days, is it possible Gretzky would have even MORE luck scoring on those accurate slappers he always did? Who knows, but it never seems to matter with the greats.

Interesting point about Gretzky -- esp. in the 80s, when he scored a ton of goals -- is that he used the heaviest hockey stick of anybody in the League. (Brett Hull described it as "the worst stick in hockey".) Today's super-light, whippy sticks are a world away from what Gretzky was accustomed to.

I do wish everyone played with wooden sticks today. And I wish MLB used only wood bats.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Here's a classic Gretzky goal vs. Hasek during the 97-98 season

But.. that is impossible against those goalies in the late 90s.. I guess Hasek wasn't very good.

Also put me down for wooden sticks being mandated and goalie equipment shrunk.

I still use a Easton aluminum Gretzky stick after 30 years and it is so stiff. I guess he liked them that way.

 

[hacksaw7]

But.. that is impossible against those goalies in the late 90s.. I guess Hasek wasn't very good.

Also put me down for wooden sticks being mandated and goalie equipment shrunk.

I still use a Easton aluminum Gretzky stick after 30 years and it is so stiff. I guess he liked them that way.

Yep. Because you know goalies will complain at the pad size decrease so going back to wooden sticks will be like throwing them a bone. Also just the auditory enjoyment of the game. Watching old games on youtube the clicking of the puck on the old wooden sticks is much louder...I always liked that

Also it seems like receiving passes on wooden sticks was easier. I've noticed in older games hard passes would "stick" to the blades a lot better than they seem to now

 

[JianYang]

Thanks! That's the one I described, above, but couldn't find the other day.

That's such a quintessential Gretzky shot, and that's likely one of the last times he scored a goal like that in his career.

I'm guessing marc Crawford never saw this when he came up with his shootout lineup.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yep. Because you know goalies will complain at the pad size decrease so going back to wooden sticks will be like throwing them a bone. Also just the auditory enjoyment of the game. Watching old games on youtube the clicking of the puck on the old wooden sticks is much louder...I always liked that

Also it seems like receiving passes on wooden sticks was easier. I've noticed in older games hard passes would "stick" to the blades a lot better than they seem to now

A lot of players have so much flex in their stick it takes a while to learn how to even handle the puck. I'd like the wooden sticks backs ala baseball because it evens the playing field a bit between eras, stratifies the players more into who has a legitimate good shot and who has a good shot because of their stick, and defuses the arms war between shooters and goalies.. which would allow the NHL to do the same thing to goalies. They are already so much bigger than in the past that the addition of all the cheaters and landing pads etc. is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

And I wish MLB used only wood bats.

Wish granted.

1.10
(a) The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2.61 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of solid wood. NOTE: No laminated or experimental bats shall be used in a professional game (either championship season or exhibition games) until the manufacturer has secured approval from the Rules Committee of his design and methods of manufacture. (b) Cupped Bats. An indentation in the end of the bat up to one inch in depth is permitted and may be no wider than two inches and no less than one inch in diameter. The indentation must be curved with no foreign substance added. (c) The bat handle, for not more than 18 inches from its end, may be covered or treated with any material or substance to improve the grip. Any such material or substance, which extends past the 18 inch limitation, shall cause the bat to be removed from the game. NOTE: If the umpire discovers that the bat does not conform to (c) above until a time during or after which the bat has been used in play, it shall not be grounds for declaring the batter out, or ejected from the game. (d) No colored bat may be used in a professional game unless approved by the Rules Committee.

 

[Big Phil]

Brodeur:

Scores shorthanded against an impressive Devil's powerplay unit consisting of Housley, Niedermayer, Thomas, Rolston, and Guerin, after blowing by Guerin and picking the corner on Brodeur like he was some junior goalie...


If anyone else has any clips against these goalies or others, please post them.

This is amazing. Guerin is much younger than him, stronger than him, and faster than him. Remember, Guerin would go onto win the fastest skater event at the All-Star game. And yet a skinny Gretzky just brushes him off three years from retirement.

There was the odd time even in his old age that Gretzky just seemed to have a jump in his step. Think the 1997 playoffs, and the two hat tricks he had. This is one of those examples, and I have always felt his brief St. Louis career rejuvenated him a bit and brought back a lot of that goal scoring prowess. 21 points in 18 games as a Blue. But 8 of them goals. A small sample size, but definitely at a higher goal scoring pace than how he was finishing at that time.

 

[hacksaw7]

This is amazing. Guerin is much younger than him, stronger than him, and faster than him. Remember, Guerin would go onto win the fastest skater event at the All-Star game. And yet a skinny Gretzky just brushes him off three years from retirement.


There was the odd time even in his old age that Gretzky just seemed to have a jump in his step. Think the 1997 playoffs, and the two hat tricks he had. This is one of those examples, and I have always felt his brief St. Louis career rejuvenated him a bit and brought back a lot of that goal scoring prowess. 21 points in 18 games as a Blue. But 8 of them goals. A small sample size, but definitely at a higher goal scoring pace than how he was finishing at that time.

94/95 was quite a shocking drop in points for Gretzky. I understand the abbreviated season meant tight checking hockey right from the getgo that year, but if you project Wayne's stats over what was then an 84 game season, im 1995 he was on pace for a mere 84 points (19 goals-64 assists ish)

 

[VaporTrail]

Interesting....

Brodeur: .877
Roy: .898
Hasek: .926

Has Gretzky ever gone on record as saying whether he had an especially tough time against any of these three?

Also, he apparently scored against Belfour only one time.

Are those the goalies GAA against Gretzky himself or against Gretzky teams ?

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Are those the goalies GAA against Gretzky himself or against Gretzky teams ?

Against Gretzky himself, I believe.

 

[The Panther]

Just for trivia's sake, these are the goalies Gretzky scored 10 or more goals against in the regular season:

29 -- Richard Brodeur
23 -- Mike Liut
21 -- Don Beaupre
21 -- Kirk McLean
21 -- Greg Millen
18 -- Don Edwards
18 -- Bill Ranford
17 -- Reggie Lemelin
17 -- Mario Lessard
17 -- Mike Vernon
15 -- Brian Hayward
12 -- Tom Barrasso
12 -- Glen Hanlon
12 -- Pat Riggin
12 -- Doug Soetart
12 -- Rick Wamsley
11 -- Chico Resch
10 -- Sean Burke
10 -- Gilles Meloche
10 -- Eldon 'Pokey' Reddick
10 -- Billy Smith
10 -- Rick St. Croix
10 -- John Vanbiesbrouck
10 -- Ken Wregget

And these are the goalies he beat 3 or more times in the playoffs:
12 -- Mike Vernon
8 -- Brian Hayward
8 -- Reggie Lemelin
8 -- Billy Smith
7 -- Kirk McLean
5 -- Mario Lessard
5 -- Pelle Lindbergh
5 -- Felix Potvin
4 -- Murray Bannerman
4 -- Don Beaupre
4 -- John Vanbiesbrouck
3 -- Grant Fuhr
3 -- Ron Hextall
3 -- Bill Ranford
3 -- Richard Sevigny
3 -- Garth Snow


He scored 2 vs. Richard Brodeur in the playoffs, so that'd be 31 NHL goals against him alone! Never faced Liut in the playoffs, so it holds at 29 total. Mike Vernon is high on both lists, so in total Gretzky beat him 29 times also. Kirk McLean and Billy Smith 28 times. Don Beaupre and Reggie Lemelin 25.