Gretzkys Difficulties in Scoring Goals against Good Defenses after the Mid 1980s

[Staniowski]

Very doubtful. If they started their careers at the same time, Gretzky's drive to be the best would have buried Lemieux.

Lemieux would still need to be healthy...but he would very likely outscore Gretzky most of the time if the two of them started their careers at the same time. I think this is fairly obvious. Lemieux ultimately had more high-end skills than Gretzky.

But Gretzkys the 2nd-best scorer in the history of hockey.

 

[authentic]

Lemieux would still need to be healthy...but he would very likely outscore Gretzky most of the time if the two of them started their careers at the same time. I think this is fairly obvious. Lemieux ultimately had more high-end skills than Gretzky.

But Gretzkys the 2nd-best scorer in the history of hockey.

Post 1995 hockey I don’t see how Gretzky seriously competes with Lemieux based on the skillsets they had. I really don’t think it would’ve been too close either the further along you got into the 2000s and 2010s when the game sped up after the lockout, but I could be wrong and it could be something like a Kucherov and MacKinnon today.

I just think all that time and space afforded back then along with poor defensive coverage benefits a ‘right place at the right time’ type of player with that anticipation and vision on another level more so than it does in a more defensive and physically demanding league. The only thing is Lemieux has those attributes as well as all the skill and size in the world along with being a tremendous skater, really I don’t think a healthy Lemieux gets approached by anyone in the history of the game in a scoring race 1995-present day.

 

[Crosby2010]

Some players benefit more from beating up on terrible competition. Gretzky is one of those players. The way he scored many of his goals during his peak would no longer be possible as the competition improved. That's why his goal scoring fell off a cliff while Lemieux's production remained more consistent. It's also like with using performance enhancing drugs. Some benefit from it more than others. Lance Armstrong won 7 Tour de France even though everyone in cycling was doping. Gretzky, with his skillset, saw greater gains facing terrible competition than Lemieux did.

Maybe it is on this thread, I can't remember, but there was this idea that Gretzky "beat up" on the so called weaker Smythe division opponents like the Kings, Canucks and even Jets. I can vividly remember looking season after season with him in the 1980s where he had at least as high of a PPG against the rest of the NHL if not better, than his Smythe division rivals. I don't think it matters who you play when you are that good. He scored so much against Richard Brodeur because they played the Canucks a ton of times. I'll continue to ask the obvious question until I get a good answer from it, but in the 1980s if Gretzky only did what he did because it was easy then I can name a lot of great goal scorers who didn't do what he did:

Mike Bossy, Michel Goulet, Marcel Dionne.

Why did Bossy never hit 70? Why did neither Dionne or Goulet hit 60?

 

[Crosby2010]

Post 1995 hockey I don’t see how Gretzky seriously competes with Lemieux based on the skillsets they had. I really don’t think it would’ve been too close either the further along you got into the 2000s and 2010s when the game sped up after the lockout, but I could be wrong and it could be something like a Kucherov and MacKinnon today.

I just think all that time and space afforded back then along with poor defensive coverage benefits a ‘right place at the right time’ type of player with that anticipation and vision on another level more so than it does in a more defensive and physically demanding league. The only thing is Lemieux has those attributes as well as all the skill and size in the world along with being a tremendous skater, really I don’t think a healthy Lemieux gets approached by anyone in the history of the game in a scoring race 1995-present day.

If you watch Gretzky at almost any time in his career, and Lemieux falls into this category too, they create their own space. Both were able to control the pace of the game. Gretzky was always an east-west type of puckhandler. That's hard to defend. Bobby Clarke stated that at least with Bobby Orr you would see him coming from the other end, but with Gretzky he was just so smart he fooled you. I don't know how that doesn't transcend into being great in any era. In the 1987 Cup final Gretzky assisted on Kurri's overtime goal in Game 2. He comes into the zone, hangs onto it, basically the Flyers surrounding him have no idea what to do. Coffey streaks in, Gretzky hits him, then Coffey shovels it to Kurri who scores. For 3-4 seconds Gretzky is just hanging onto the puck and makes it look so casual despite being surrounded by Flyers. This is what he did all of the time. He controlled the pace of the game. And this was a year where led the NHL in goals and had more assists than anyone else had points. I'm sorry, but we saw what a young Jagr did in the 1990s. He had raw talent but still didn't have Gretzky's level of play. Why doesn't a young Gretzky dominate the NHL in the 1990s as well? He still led the NHL in points in the 1990s as a guy in his 30s.

 

[The Panther]

Lemieux would still need to be healthy...but he would very likely outscore Gretzky most of the time if the two of them started their careers at the same time. I think this is fairly obvious. Lemieux ultimately had more high-end skills than Gretzky.

Wow, what nonsense. When their careers overlapped from 1984 to 1991, Gretzky destoyed Lemieux. (That ended when Wayne's prime decisively ended in Sept. 1991.)

Gretzky also destoyed Lemieux head-to-head, both in the 1980s and in the 1990s, when he was past his prime.

When they played on the same club at Canada Cup '87, Gretzky was MVP, not Lemieux (who scored 11 goals, about 7 of which were on Gretzky passes).

Gretzky aged 30 to 36 in the playoffs (1990s):
70GP: 33G + 65A = 98 PTS / 1.40 PPG (+10)
Lemieux aged 27 to 35 in the playoffs (1990s + 2001):
58GP: 32G + 43A = 75 PTS / 1.20 PPG (+1)

So... here we have a younger Lemieux, playing on vastly higher scoring / more talented teams (with the co-best player in the world, Jagr), in his prime... and meanwhile post-prime, bad teams' Gretzky, in the same scoring environment (mid-1990s), still outscores Mario when the games matter. Now, imagine, if Wayne had been in his prime in the 1990s...

But Gretzkys the 2nd-best scorer in the history of hockey.

You're always good for a laugh!

 

[The Panther]

Post 1995 hockey I don’t see how Gretzky seriously competes with Lemieux based on the skillsets they had.

You're wrong, but even if you were right, it doesn't matter in terms of which players are better.

Players play in their own eras. Their greatness isn't determined by being transferable to different eras that aren't their own.

 

[The Panther]

By the way, Ray Bourque --- who was French-Canadian (like Lemieux), played in the East vs. Pittsburgh, played against Lemieux regularly his entire career, lost to Lemieux in the playoffs twice, and whose team had more defensive success vs. Gretzky than any team --- said Gretzky was the best.

 

[authentic]

You're wrong, but even if you were right, it doesn't matter in terms of which players are better.

Players play in their own eras. Their greatness isn't determined by being transferable to different eras that aren't their own.

Hmmm. You sure about that? How exactly could you know that for certain?

It’s not exactly a far fetched conclusion to come to, and it’s an opinion held by many people, and for good reason. I also am not determining their greatness this way, obviously Gretzky is the greatest player ever with by far the best career.

No one approached Lemieux once defense and goaltending improved though, and yes that actually is useful for deciding who the better player is when both were so close at their peaks!

 

[authentic]

By the way, Ray Bourque --- who was French-Canadian (like Lemieux), played in the East vs. Pittsburgh, played against Lemieux regularly his entire career, lost to Lemieux in the playoffs twice, and whose team had more defensive success vs. Gretzky than any team --- said Gretzky was the best.

Well that settles it then

(Bourque really going out on a limb here eh?)

 

[authentic]

Wow, what nonsense. When their careers overlapped from 1984 to 1991, Gretzky destoyed Lemieux. (That ended when Wayne's prime decisively ended in Sept. 1991.)

Gretzky also destoyed Lemieux head-to-head, both in the 1980s and in the 1990s, when he was past his prime.

When they played on the same club at Canada Cup '87, Gretzky was MVP, not Lemieux (who scored 11 goals, about 7 of which were on Gretzky passes).

Gretzky aged 30 to 36 in the playoffs (1990s):
70GP: 33G + 65A = 98 PTS / 1.40 PPG (+10)
Lemieux aged 27 to 35 in the playoffs (1990s + 2001):
58GP: 32G + 43A = 75 PTS / 1.20 PPG (+1)

So... here we have a younger Lemieux, playing on vastly higher scoring / more talented teams (with the co-best player in the world, Jagr), in his prime... and meanwhile post-prime, bad teams' Gretzky, in the same scoring environment (mid-1990s), still outscores Mario when the games matter. Now, imagine, if Wayne had been in his prime in the 1990s...

You're always good for a laugh!

Imagine Wayne scoring at a goal per game pace against Hasek, Brodeur, and the advanced goaltending and defense of the mid 1990s-2000s. You actually bring forth good arguments here, I just don’t see the need to imply it’s a fact that Gretzky would be better than Lemieux in modern hockey. I really do think it’s very debatable and much more likely Lemieux would be better at his best, but it’s definitely fun to imagine and discuss with no right or wrong answer.

 

[authentic]

If you watch Gretzky at almost any time in his career, and Lemieux falls into this category too, they create their own space. Both were able to control the pace of the game. Gretzky was always an east-west type of puckhandler. That's hard to defend. Bobby Clarke stated that at least with Bobby Orr you would see him coming from the other end, but with Gretzky he was just so smart he fooled you. I don't know how that doesn't transcend into being great in any era. In the 1987 Cup final Gretzky assisted on Kurri's overtime goal in Game 2. He comes into the zone, hangs onto it, basically the Flyers surrounding him have no idea what to do. Coffey streaks in, Gretzky hits him, then Coffey shovels it to Kurri who scores. For 3-4 seconds Gretzky is just hanging onto the puck and makes it look so casual despite being surrounded by Flyers. This is what he did all of the time. He controlled the pace of the game. And this was a year where led the NHL in goals and had more assists than anyone else had points. I'm sorry, but we saw what a young Jagr did in the 1990s. He had raw talent but still didn't have Gretzky's level of play. Why doesn't a young Gretzky dominate the NHL in the 1990s as well? He still led the NHL in points in the 1990s as a guy in his 30s.

Of course it transcends, I’m talking about him being better than Mario Lemieux in modern hockey though. Most definitely he would be better than everyone else.

 

[authentic]

I am curious actually. When was the last time Gretzky scored at a comparable rate to Lemieux’s first 34 games in 2002-03 at age 37, with 63 points?

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Post 1995 hockey I don’t see how Gretzky seriously competes with Lemieux based on the skillsets they had. I really don’t think it would’ve been too close either the further along you got into the 2000s and 2010s when the game sped up after the lockout, but I could be wrong and it could be something like a Kucherov and MacKinnon today.

I just think all that time and space afforded back then along with poor defensive coverage benefits a ‘right place at the right time’ type of player with that anticipation and vision on another level more so than it does in a more defensive and physically demanding league. The only thing is Lemieux has those attributes as well as all the skill and size in the world along with being a tremendous skater, really I don’t think a healthy Lemieux gets approached by anyone in the history of the game in a scoring race 1995-present day.

This argument is so bad and continues to be regurgitated year in and year out.

If all of Gretzky’s gaudy statistics were just a product of a poor defensive era, the whole league would’ve looked like that. But Gretzky’s totals were enormously higher than even the second place scorers during those prime years.

Also this board’s fascination with Lemieux’s size is ludicrous lol.

 

[MadLuke]

Imagine Wayne scoring at a goal per game pace against Hasek, Brodeur, and the advanced goaltending and defense of the mid 1990s-2000s.

95-96 yes was mid 1990s, but was still quite high scoring, the 31 goals on the power play Lemieux was the 4th most ever (Kerr 1986, Andreychuck 93, Lemieux 1989)

16th players scored at a 100 points pace that year (with 50 games or more played), there was 11th of those in 1991, 17th in 1990, for elite first PP units it was a great scoring year and quite different than say 2000.

Elite canadian nhler scoring in 19951996 was the same has 86-87 or 91-92 pretty much because that season had the 4th most powerplay (2006, 1988, 1993, the only ones with mores), in a season like that Lemieux has a good change to score more goals than prime Gretzky, because of their PP/ev split, but that NHL referring circumstantial more than defense or goaltender quality.

If all of Gretzky’s gaudy statistics were just a product of a poor defensive era, the whole league would’ve looked like that. But Gretzky’s totals were enormously higher than even the second place scorers during those prime years.

That a bit of a strawman, it cannot be just a product, he must be the best ever at taking advantage of opponent's issues to pull that off of course.

But if we look at the list of people that outscored Kovalchuck or Jagr in the khl, they were not necessarily better at hockey, there is something about environment changing player ranking that is at least possible, junior/AHL/khl player scoring order vs NHL, we see it from time to time.

 

[authentic]

This argument is so bad and continues to be regurgitated year in and year out.

If all of Gretzky’s gaudy statistics were just a product of a poor defensive era, the whole league would’ve looked like that. But Gretzky’s totals were enormously higher than even the second place scorers during those prime years.

Also this board’s fascination with Lemieux’s size is ludicrous lol.

Well if only that were the argument…

 

[authentic]

95-96 yes was mid 1990s, but was still quite high scoring, the 31 goals on the power play Lemieux was the 4th most ever (Kerr 1986, Andreychuck 93, Lemieux 1989)

16th players scored at a 100 points pace that year (with 50 games or more played), there was 11th of those in 1991, 17th in 1990, for elite first PP units it was a great scoring year and quite different than say 2000.

Elite canadian nhler scoring in 19951996 was the same has 86-87 or 91-92 pretty much because that season had the 4th most powerplay (2006, 1988, 1993, the only ones with mores), in a season like that Lemieux has a good change to score more goals than prime Gretzky, because of their PP/ev split, but that NHL referring circumstantial more than defense or goaltender quality.



That a bit of a strawman, it cannot be just a product, he must be the best ever at taking advantage of opponent's issues to pull that off.

But if we look at the list of people that outscored Kovalchuck or Jagr in the khl, they were not necessarily better at hockey, there is something about environment changing player ranking that is at least possible, junior/AHL/khl player scoring order vs NHL, we see it from time to time.

The scoring was high, the skill level and physical traits needed to be an elite scorer on that level were still higher than before. It’s the same reason I still think Lemieux would be better than Gretzky during today’s recent uptick in scoring. I don’t personally believe Gretzky had the physical tools to dominate hockey on the same level as Lemieux past a certain point in the mid 90s. I also don’t believe my opinion is a fact either, but it’s held by many others I discuss it with.

 

[MadLuke]

the skill level and physical traits needed to be an elite scorer on that level were still higher than before

I think we can overrate how much that changed while underrate how skilled Gretzky was.

Jean Perron said when Gretzky was just having fun in practice with the puck doing more circus stuff skating-with the puck, he never saw an hockey player more impressive at it in just raw physical skills, hands, hand-eye, etc..., when he was coaching him on Cup Canada/rendezvous 1987. Lemieux was on those team. He was just really efficient on how to get results that it was not always as flashy than some others ( a bit like some old heavyweight boxer knock people out on what look like nothing punch or old 2003 Mario was scoring a lot without big bomb shoots or much speeds anymore)

If Luka Doncic or Tom Brady were palyers from the 70s/80s we would find people saying they could not work in today world against the super athlete, Patrick Kane was not strong enough for today nhl, Ovechkin/Kucherov does not take it serious enough during the summer.

I think in some season of the nhl, prime Lemieux would beat prime Gretzky in a scoring race is a perfectly valid opinion, I mean the guy had 2.62 and 2.67 ppg season it is not like he was far in reality.

But peak Gretzky would, almost without a doubt, always be an elite player in any era, he would have find a way if the way he did it in the high-flying era did not work, he did find a way in all the juniors league he played in, the whl, the nhl, all the international tournaments rules and opponents style.

he did find a way in 1982 hockey, did find a way in the 1993 playoff, Art Ross in 1994, still going in the 1997 playoff, it was really not a small sample size era/league success story.

97-98-99 Gretzky assists total was one of the best versus nhl peers ever still at that point, 97-99 he had 32 more assists than the great Adam Oates, and kept up with peak Jagr-Forsberg 2 of the best playmaker ever.

 

[Crosby2010]

Of course it transcends, I’m talking about him being better than Mario Lemieux in modern hockey though. Most definitely he would be better than everyone else.

To me this is always an argument of visiting Paris or Tokyo. How can you go wrong? For me though, the anticipation and out of this world hockey sense of Gretzky as well as his drive to play at a high level every single day is unmatched and regardless of the era Gretzky still wins out based on that stuff. We all know talent-wise Lemieux is the bigger talent, but can people honestly say he was the better player?

I am curious actually. When was the last time Gretzky scored at a comparable rate to Lemieux’s first 34 games in 2002-03 at age 37, with 63 points?

I can see for sure that Gretzky was right there in the beginning of the 1993-'94 season with 63 points in his first 37 games. Add the month of January to that mix and it is 89 points in 50 games. He didn't really slow down (to his standards) until February of that year.

67 points in 46 games prior to the All-Star break in 1995-'96.

Lemieux was on fire in the beginning of the 2002-'03 season. I can remember an article or two talking about how either he was still great or if it was an embarrassment for the NHL that he was able to dominate like this, or a combo. Either way, doing that at his age was special. But let's also keep in mind Gretzky played 1487 games and barely missed the playoffs and never turned Canada down for a best on best. He played a ton of hockey in his career. He was definitely not as fresh as Lemieux at 37 years old. But anyway, the most recent I can find with Gretzky is him in the 1994 season besting Lemieux's start in the 2002-'03 season.

 

[authentic]

I think we can overrate how much that changed while underrate how skilled Gretzky was.

Jean Perron said when Gretzky was just having fun in practice with the puck doing more circus stuff skating-with the puck, he never saw an hockey player more impressive at it in just raw physical skills, hands, hand-eye, etc..., when he was coaching him on Cup Canada/rendezvous 1987. Lemieux was on those team. He was just really efficient on how to get results that it was not always as flashy than some others ( a bit like some old heavyweight boxer knock people out on what look like nothing punch or old 2003 Mario was scoring a lot without big bomb shoots or much speeds anymore)

If Luka Doncic or Tom Brady were palyers from the 70s/80s we would find people saying they could not work in today world against the super athlete, Patrick Kane was not strong enough for today nhl, Ovechkin/Kucherov does not take it serious enough during the summer.

I think in some season of the nhl, prime Lemieux would beat prime Gretzky in a scoring race is a perfectly valid opinion, I mean the guy had 2.62 and 2.67 ppg season it is not like he was far in reality.

But peak Gretzky would, almost without a doubt, always be an elite player in any era, he would have find a way if the way he did it in the high-flying era did not work, he did find a way in all the juniors league he played in, the whl, the nhl, all the international tournaments rules and opponents style.

he did find a way in 1982 hockey, did find a way in the 1993 playoff, in the 1997 playoff, it was really not a small size era/league success story.

I agree wholeheartedly he remains elite in any era, actually well beyond elite, I just question if it’s to the extent he managed in the 80s. I just can’t picture him scoring a goal per game or over 2 points per game in 1995-96, I would see him somewhere closer to Jagr in points and goals than Lemieux at that point truthfully.

I actually hope infact that he would still be the best in today’s NHL as well as that would be a sight to behold, but him outscoring McDavid for instance is just hard to really imagine, atleast in dominant fashion year after year. I feel like McDavid is just built for this era too much with his speed and skill.

I wonder if anyone can dig up when was the last time Gretzky has a stretch of scoring comparable to Lemieux’s start to 2002-03, with 63 points in 34 games, that being at the age of 37 against mammoth butterfly goaltenders and I tough defensive era.

 

[authentic]

To me this is always an argument of visiting Paris or Tokyo. How can you go wrong? For me though, the anticipation and out of this world hockey sense of Gretzky as well as his drive to play at a high level every single day is unmatched and regardless of the era Gretzky still wins out based on that stuff. We all know talent-wise Lemieux is the bigger talent, but can people honestly say he was the better player?



I can see for sure that Gretzky was right there in the beginning of the 1993-'94 season with 63 points in his first 37 games. Add the month of January to that mix and it is 89 points in 50 games. He didn't really slow down (to his standards) until February of that year.

67 points in 46 games prior to the All-Star break in 1995-'96.

Lemieux was on fire in the beginning of the 2002-'03 season. I can remember an article or two talking about how either he was still great or if it was an embarrassment for the NHL that he was able to dominate like this, or a combo. Either way, doing that at his age was special. But let's also keep in mind Gretzky played 1487 games and barely missed the playoffs and never turned Canada down for a best on best. He played a ton of hockey in his career. He was definitely not as fresh as Lemieux at 37 years old. But anyway, the most recent I can find with Gretzky is him in the 1994 season besting Lemieux's start in the 2002-'03 season.

Perfect, 89 points in 50 games, that’s similar to Ovechkin’s peak minus the goal scoring in a not so drastically different scoring levels, right on the cusp of the mid 90s. That start to his 1995-96 is amazing as well, and if I had to guess he accomplished those with less favourable ice time than Lemieux in his later career in terms of powerplay usage and total ice time.

 

[MadLuke]

I just can’t picture him scoring a goal per game or over 2 points per game in 1995-96,

And it is hard to picture Mario doing if the league had 3 PPO like we have now.

I think both can be true, in a 5 PPO season like 1996 even peak Gretzky does not necessarily match what Mario could do, while in the average modern season he could have (and would have done it more often than not with is consistency).

i.e. all in their peak facing each others, 89-93-96 Lemieux as a serious good shot at winning the Ross, being the best power play player ever (and a strong PK scorer but Gretzky was good at it has well), no doubt.

But even Lemieux does not score like that if 1996 is more like 95, 97 or 00 hockey.

 

[Crosby2010]

Perfect, 89 points in 50 games, that’s similar to Ovechkin’s peak minus the goal scoring in a not so drastically different scoring levels, right on the cusp of the mid 90s. That start to his 1995-96 is amazing as well, and if I had to guess he accomplished those with less favourable ice time than Lemieux in his later career in terms of powerplay usage and total ice time.

Yeah this was Gretzky in what I would say was his last truly great season. And by that I mean the next tier down of his greatness. I am thinking post-1991. Because I think the lockout and the partial season in 1995 was when we first saw Gretzky getting "old" in the way we would view him the rest of his career. Funny how he still led the NHL in assists twice after 1994. But I do think there is a big difference between Gretzky in 1997 or 1998 and him in 1994. Kind of similar to how he was in 1991 vs. 1994. I guess you know you're pretty darn good when people just yawn at a 130 point season in 1994.

I agree wholeheartedly he remains elite in any era, actually well beyond elite, I just question if it’s to the extent he managed in the 80s. I just can’t picture him scoring a goal per game or over 2 points per game in 1995-96, I would see him somewhere closer to Jagr in points and goals than Lemieux at that point truthfully.

I think the way we are wired we just can't see a young Gretzky in the mid 1990s. I can't picture 1996 and not see Gretzky on those sad sack Kings teams or even as a Blue. He's slower then, older, his back is hurting him, he's played for 17 years in the NHL. It is hard to imagine him lighting up the 1996 season like a Christmas tree because it is already ingrained in our brain how he played that year. Or at least it is for me.

 

[authentic]

Yeah this was Gretzky in what I would say was his last truly great season. And by that I mean the next tier down of his greatness. I am thinking post-1991. Because I think the lockout and the partial season in 1995 was when we first saw Gretzky getting "old" in the way we would view him the rest of his career. Funny how he still led the NHL in assists twice after 1994. But I do think there is a big difference between Gretzky in 1997 or 1998 and him in 1994. Kind of similar to how he was in 1991 vs. 1994. I guess you know you're pretty darn good when people just yawn at a 130 point season in 1994.



I think the way we are wired we just can't see a young Gretzky in the mid 1990s. I can't picture 1996 and not see Gretzky on those sad sack Kings teams or even as a Blue. He's slower then, older, his back is hurting him, he's played for 17 years in the NHL. It is hard to imagine him lighting up the 1996 season like a Christmas tree because it is already ingrained in our brain how he played that year. Or at least it is for me.

Actually to add he also ended up trailing only Jagr in points in the 1998 calendar year. That would be like if Crosby retires after next season, and during the 2025 calendar year trails only McDavid or MacKinnon or something (or Kucherov or Drai). That’s right after his 1997 playoffs with 10 goals and 20 points in 15 games. Which I believe is a higher goals per game than Lemieux ever had in post 1995 playoffs hockey? I’ll have to check again.

 

[Crosby2010]

Actually to add he also ended up trailing only Jagr in points in the 1998 calendar year. That would be like if Crosby retires after next season, and during the 2025 calendar year trails only McDavid or MacKinnon or something (or Kucherov or Drai). That’s right after his 1997 playoffs with 10 goals and 20 points in 15 games. Which I believe is a higher goals per game than Lemieux ever had in post 1995 playoffs hockey? I’ll have to check again.

Yeah Gretzky in the 1997 playoffs just those moments where he was in the zone. Two playoff hat tricks that spring. One of them against Beezer, so it wasn't an average goalie either. Gretzky really took the 1998 Rangers as far as he could because he really took off after the All-Star break with 45 points in 35 games.

I've mentioned before that he led the NHL in assists this year. Or tied Jagr. Had more than Forsberg. In fact, only Jagr and Forsberg had more points than him all season. 90 points he had. This is a beaten down Gretzky, he is an old man on the ice at this point, the only time he looked worse was the season after - his last. And yet he is 3rd in scoring in the NHL. Man oh man.