Gretzky's Difficulties In Scoring Goals Against Good Defenses, After The Mid-1980s.

[buffalowing88]

Just to clarify, this forum Is designed for discussion but if you try and discuss something against the consensus, it's wrong?

 

[Michael Farkas]

But you did say that in your original comment, where you stated that Gretzky was never once the best scorer at any point in his career.

That is quite the statement and you should probably do more work to show how you conclude that.

Did I? I have two posts in this particular thread. One says, "anyone can count" and the other one says, "counting isn't talent evaluation, even if the count is high".

 

[McPoyle]

Did I? I have two posts in this particular thread. One says, "anyone can count" and the other one says, "counting isn't talent evaluation, even if the count is high".

Ah sorry, I mixed up your comments with another who was responding to me.

 

[Minar]

He simply became more focused on playmaking as he got older. When he was a young gun he was going to the net alot more. He mellowed with age probably to self preserve, amd focused more and more playmaking which was his biggest strength.

 

[Dallas Winston]

Slap shots from the blue line stopped going in 85% of the time

 

[Sheppy]

I also think it helped that the goalies weren't all 5'7'' as well. Seemed like being 6 foot in the 80's put you at giant status.

 

[The Panther]

I also think it helped that the goalies weren't all 5'7'' as well. Seemed like being 6 foot in the 80's put you at giant status.

One thing I could never figure out was why goalies were generally short-to-mid-sized in the 1970s-to-mid(?)-1980s. But I guess it was just hard to find big men who had the reflexes to play goal. There was Pete Peeters and Ron Hextall... any other biggies?

But, you know, did size of goalies really affect Gretzky much? I would say no. From 1988-89 to 1990-91, his shooting percentage is still higher than Fleury, Sakic, Lafontaine, Yzerman, etc, and equal to Brett Hull's.

 

[MadLuke]

any other biggies?

Dryden ?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Liut

 

[Staniowski]

Slap shots from the blue line stopped going in 85% of the time

Gretzky wasn't taking many slappers from the blue line anyway. Most of his slapshots were from the slot. He'd walk in pretty close and take the big windup.

He simply became more focused on playmaking as he got older. When he was a young gun he was going to the net alot more. He mellowed with age probably to self preserve, amd focused more and more playmaking which was his biggest strength.

He went to the net when he was younger because it was easier to do so in the early '80s. More time and space.

 

[Staniowski]

Ah yes, another round of the league somehow got better the instant Lemieux was drafted argument...

The league got better over a period of many years. Defense really started to significantly improve around the mid-'80s. It didn't become great all at once, but it continued to improve for the next decade.

 

[authentic]

The knee injury in 1987 is a big part of the decrease. It impacted his edge work and ability to drive the net.

He still lead the league in goals in 1986-87. When he got hurt in 1987-88 he was 1 goal behind Lemieux for lead and on pace for 63 goals.

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He only scored 10 goals on his last 26 games post return (32 goal pace).

He basically lost 10 goals/season with that injury. He had played at a ~62 goal pace for 110ish games, then instantly became a ~51 goal pace guy for the next 110ish games.

The 1991 Suter hit rightfully gets blamed for abruptly ending his prime. But the 1987 knee injury is the second most impactful of his career.

Did this knee injury take place before or after the 1987 Canada Cup?

 

[authentic]

This is a fact that gretzky fans like to throw in the rug. While lemieux was scoring 69 in 70 in similar scoring leagues as today. I think with the time the truth will come out

I have always trusted what I saw with my own eyes. The main reason I believe Gretzky did not appear as good as Lemieux is simply because he wasn’t. He was more dominant against an inferior league and far more healthy. I don’t think there’s any chance prime Gretzky outscores a prime Lemieux in post 1995 NHL, goals or points.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The league got better over a period of many years. Defense really started to significantly improve around the mid-'80s. It didn't become great all at once, but it continued to improve for the next decade.

The league has consistently gotten better over time in the sense that athletes overall have gotten better through better nutrition, more professional training regimes etc.

But you need to actually point at specifics to prove a large jump year to year though. Like I find it credible to say that expansion diluted the talented pool, I also find it credible to say that the influx of European (specifically Soviet bloc) talent post-1990 helped fill those holes in rosters again, I'll even buy that increased participation in the U.S. improved the talent pool from the mid 00s onward. But what exactly is supposed to have happened in the mid 1980s?

 

[authentic]

The league has consistently gotten better over time in the sense that athletes overall have gotten better through better nutrition, more professional training regimes etc.

But you need to actually point at specifics to prove a large jump year to year though. Like I find it credible to say that expansion diluted the talented pool, I also find it credible to say that the influx of European (specifically Soviet bloc) talent post-1990 helped fill those holes in rosters again, I'll even buy that increased participation in the U.S. improved the talent pool from the mid 00s onward. But what exactly is supposed to have happened in the mid 1980s?

Late 1980s definitely had improved defense and goaltending compared to early 1980s.

 

[authentic]

One thing I could never figure out was why goalies were generally short-to-mid-sized in the 1970s-to-mid(?)-1980s. But I guess it was just hard to find big men who had the reflexes to play goal. There was Pete Peeters and Ron Hextall... any other biggies?

But, you know, did size of goalies really affect Gretzky much? I would say no. From 1988-89 to 1990-91, his shooting percentage is still higher than Fleury, Sakic, Lafontaine, Yzerman, etc, and equal to Brett Hull's.

Were goalies on average bigger before the 1970s?

 

[overpass]

But what exactly is supposed to have happened in the mid 1980s?

Coaching took a big step up and became more professional. It wasn't just having a former player there to motivate the players and call out the lines. Professional development camps for coaches took a big step forward in the 80s. Look at the numbers of assistant coaches per team as well, many teams had only 1 at the beginning of the decade.

1986 is an interesting year to consider. Take the Memorial Cup. 3 of the 4 head coaches were Jacques Martin, Pat Burns, and Ken Hitchcock. All in their early to mid 30s, all attending coaching camps and gearing up for lifelong coaching careers. And all became renowned defensive coaches in the NHL, definitely names that come to mind when you think about the game changing in the 90s. These changes were starting in the mid 80s. Martin's Guelph Platers won the 1986 Memorial Cup with a disciplined forechecking and backchecking system.

Look at the NHL playoffs. Badger Bob Johnson and the Calgary Flames designed a checking strategy to stop the Oilers in 86. Johnson was an innovator in systems across the board, including the power play. The Montreal Canadiens won the Cup with a very young team that checked every opponent into the ice. Mike Keenan, another young coach, made the finals in 85 and 87 with young teams playing hard, disciplined hockey. Meanwhile, the Hartford Whalers were the last team still running an old-school coaching staff, with head coach Jack Evans's hands off style and players running the special teams units.

 

[Jumptheshark]

he pretty much scored against everyone till the 1990's rolled in

 

[Dingo]

One thing I could never figure out was why goalies were generally short-to-mid-sized in the 1970s-to-mid(?)-1980s. But I guess it was just hard to find big men who had the reflexes to play goal. There was Pete Peeters and Ron Hextall... any other biggies?

But, you know, did size of goalies really affect Gretzky much? I would say no. From 1988-89 to 1990-91, his shooting percentage is still higher than Fleury, Sakic, Lafontaine, Yzerman, etc, and equal to Brett Hull's.

my belief is that, even before the butterfly was really a thing, a goalie would very obviously have to get down and back up many many times throughout a game.

The pads back then were heavy and soaked up water, getting heavier as the game went on.

Now, if you have ever been in a martial arts or crossfit gym you will know that short little fire hydrant guys are inherently better at burpees than tall, skinny guys. Its not even close, and there really arent exceptions. And they are also usually better at moving weight with their short limbs.

Guys built like Ryan Miller are not built for 40lb horsehair pads, imo.

Its a horses for courses kind of thing. Darwinism. Those pads dictated the type of athlete that rose to the top. The new ones dictate a different type.

 

[the valiant effort]

What do we make of his goalscoring across 2 of his final 3 playoff runs?

 

[authentic]

my belief is that, even before the butterfly was really a thing, a goalie would very obviously have to get down and back up many many times throughout a game.

The pads back then were heavy and soaked up water, getting heavier as the game went on.

Now, if you have ever been in a martial arts or crossfit gym you will know that short little fire hydrant guys are inherently better at burpees than tall, skinny guys. Its not even close, and there really arent exceptions. And they are also usually better at moving weight with their short limbs.

Guys built like Ryan Miller are not built for 40lb horsehair pads, imo.

Its a horses for courses kind of thing. Darwinism. Those pads dictated the type of athlete that rose to the top. The new ones dictate a different type.

Wow good call.

What do we make of his goalscoring across 2 of his final 3 playoff runs?

I was always super impressed by his 1997 playoffs. 10 goals and 20 points in 15 games is almost as good as peak Ovechkin with 11 and 21 in 14 games, and Gretzky did it in a lower scoring season on a worse offensive team I’m pretty sure.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I was always super impressed by his 1997 playoffs. 10 goals and 20 points in 15 games is almost as good as peak Ovechkin with 11 and 21 in 14 games, and Gretzky did it in a lower scoring season on a worse offensive team I’m pretty sure.

Yeah, that one speaks for Gretzky not being quite finished as a goal scorer. 1996-97 was however a slightly higher scoring season than 2008-09 (2.92 v. 2.85 gpg), and those Rangers weren’t that much worse offensively than the 09 Caps: 258 goals for 4th overall v. 268 for 3rd overall, that’s one more goal scored every 8 or 9 games for OV’s Caps.

 

[authentic]

Yeah, that one speaks for Gretzky not being quite finished as a goal scorer. 1996-97 was however a slightly higher scoring season than 2008-09 (2.92 v. 2.85 gpg), and those Rangers weren’t that much worse offensively than the 09 Caps: 258 goals for 4th overall v. 268 for 3rd overall, that’s one more goal scored every 8 or 9 games for OV’s Caps.

What was the goals per game average in the playoffs I wonder? I seem to remember around this time the playoffs goals per game were even relatively lower than the regular seasons in other eras.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

What was the goals per game average in the playoffs I wonder? I seem to remember around this time the playoffs goals per game were even relatively lower than the regular seasons in other eras.

2009 Playoffs: 5.483 g/gp
1997 Playoffs: 5.354 g/gp

Or, another goal every 7.75 games. I don’t know if this is an apples-to-apples comparison of playoff scoring levels, though. At a glance, there seems to be more high-caliber offensive teams in 2009, and stronger defensive teams making it deep in 1997.