Gretzky/Ovechkin. Major gap in supporting cast talent.

[gtrower]

I don't understand why some Ovi fans are so insecure that they need to create narratives as to why Ovi isn't better than Gretzky. Ovi is what he is. He did what he did. Greatest goal scorer ever. Hard to argue that point (although some still will). Just because Gretzky played with the shell of Larry Robinson or those 67 games in Pat Lafontaine's final season, doesn't really change anything.

I’m an Ovi fan that rolled my eyes at this thread. Not sure it is even worth bringing up at all let alone creating a new thread from the ample number of Ovi threads that are already going.

There are discussions to be had about Ovi’s supporting cast over the years. But not relative to Gretzky. Way too many other differences between those two players/eras to be worrying about their respective supporting casts and how they affected goal totals.

 

[AvStock]

Ovi could beat the crap out of Gretzky in an on ice fist fight

 

[Mike C]

Why did the Oilers win a Stanley Cup their 2nd year without Gretzky (sweeping his Kings 4-0 along the way)? Why did Gretzky never win another Stanley Cup after leaving Edmonton?

Because he couldn't get over the sting of Putin not congratulating him??

 

[FiveTacos]

I don't think anyone is going to argue otherwise that Gretzky didn't make his teammates better. But if we are going to compare eras, Ovechkin would have scored 100 goals a season on a near-regular basis in Gretzky's day.

Well since we're doing unprovable hypotheticals, I'm gonna claim that with wooden sticks Ovechkin would have been no better than Brett Hull, and with more cheap shots he'd have worn out 7 years ago.

But imagine your goal scoring dropping off that percipitously at 28 because everyone abandoned the stand up style

Interesting then that there were still guys scoring 70+ into the early 90s. If that were the explanation, shouldn't everyone have dropped off? Shouldn't the DPE have started in 1990 then?

and not losing much in the way of talented teammates.

His teammates in LA were nowhere near what they were in Edmonton. Not even close.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

These are both all time great hockey players and played in different eras. I do believe that Gretzky made players around him better and that is something that Ovechkin has not done. I do think that it is highly possible that Kurri, Andersen and Lowe all would not be HOFers if it were not for Gretzky. Although Ovechkin is "now" the all time leading goal scorer, in my opinion Gretzky could have easily scored a lot more goals but it seemed The Great One enjoyed setting up his teammates (closest comparision I can think of is Kucherov). I do not think we will see someone again with Gretzky's hockey IQ again as he was always 3 steps ahead of everyone. Let's just enjoy both players from different eras as they are both totally different type of players but both unique in their way.

I agree with most of what you said, but the bolded statement is what I object to.

Ovechkin definitely made some of his teammates better, just look at this season alone. Strome improved significantly since joining the Caps, Protas and Wilson are having career years on the other wing with him. Carlson got a ton of assists throughout his career thanks to Ovechkin’s PP goals.

I’m not saying he was as good as Gretzky at elevating his teammates (no one ever was), but he definitely made life easier for his teammates. The Caps haven’t had any other natural goal scorer since Semin in the early 2010s because Ovechkin can cover that need by himself. If you look at the 2025 Capitals roster, basically everyone else is a pass first player.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInTampa]

Well since we're doing unprovable hypotheticals, I'm gonna claim that with wooden sticks Ovechkin would have been no better than Brett Hull, and with more cheap shots he'd have worn out 7 years ago.



Interesting then that there were still guys scoring 70+ into the early 90s. If that were the explanation, shouldn't everyone have dropped off? Shouldn't the DPE have started in 1990 then?



His teammates in LA were nowhere near what they were in Edmonton. Not even close.

Unprovable? Gretzky went from 637 goals in his first 774 games to 257 in his last 713. The results speak for themselves. It isn't because it coincides with the dead puck era. It coincides with the likes of Roy, Hasek, Belfour and Richter beginning a goaltending renessiance at the beginning of the 1990's. Gretzky's unparalleled goal scoring genius came at the hands of destroying the same stand-up goaltending he had seen his entire life. He knew and understood every habit of that day.

But things changed. Guys like Hull, Lemieux, Jagr and Bure continued to succeed and score buckets well into the DPE because they were never not better, natural goal scorers than Gretzky. Gretzky himself would probably admit that any of those guys could have broken his record under different circumstances. And for what it's worth, Gretzky had Krushelnyski, Kurri, Coffey and McSorley all to follow him to LA on top of Rob Blake and Luc Robatille..Ovechkin never had a fraction of that kind of help and he had to do it in an era that has seldom been harder to score

The sky is the limit to Gretzky's playmaking. I don't doubt 100 assists in today's game. But if you think the dude is smacking home 77 unblocked shots in 2025 then idk what to tell you.

 

[Randyne]

Tell me one reason why Gretzky was allowed to have his office in the most impossible place on the rink? Except everyone was afraid of getting a punch to the face from his bodyguards.


They all were cowards to kick him out from there? A player has a puck - any player has the right to hit him.
Without untouchable cheatcode he wouldn't have assists more than anyone has points. It's so fake number.

 

[FiveTacos]

Unprovable? Gretzky went from 637 goals in his first 774 games to 257 in his last 713.

Really, younknow for a fact it's because of goalies and not the fact that he was simply getting older and worn down? If so then you must also believe guys like Hull would have scored 100+ a few years earlier.

But yes, it is unprovable. I could claim that Selanne losing his warp speed to an Achilles injury cost him 10-15 breakaway goals a year and caused him to lose a step a few years sooner and if he'd not played in the DPE he'd be tops In goal scoring and Ovechkin would still be #2. You can't prove me wrong.

The results speak for themselves. It isn't because it coincides with the dead puck era. It coincides with the likes of Roy, Hasek, Belfour and Richter beginning a goaltending renessiance at the beginning of the 1990's.

The point is, if the dropoff is because of the goaltending, then EVERYONE, not just Gretz, should have experienced the precipitous dropoff at the same time. He wasn't the only one scoring goals the way he did.

But things changed. Guys like Hull, Lemieux, Jagr and Bure continued to succeed and score buckets well into the DPE because they were never not better, natural goal scorers than Gretzky. Gretzky himself would probably admit that any of those guys could have broken his record under different circumstances.

Oh really, now we're into hypothetical quotes? My hypothetical Gretzky quote is those guys can all suck it.

And for what it's worth, Gretzky had Krushelnyski, Kurri, Coffey and McSorley all to follow him to LA on top of Rob Blake and Luc Robatille..

Krush was not exactly a HoF scorer, he was a good role player at best. Kurri was 31 when he got to LA and a shell of himself. Coffey was also flawed as ever. Blake was just a young kid, not the star he'd become later. Luc was a legit star but mostly did not play on Gretzky's line. And seriously, McSorley as an example of a great supporting cast? WTF?

Without Gretzky those teams were well below average.

The sky is the limit to Gretzky's playmaking. I don't doubt 100 assists in today's game. But if you think the dude is smacking home 77 unblocked shots in 2025 then idk what to tell you.

I just know that even by the standards of the day, it didn't make sense that he could do what he did. Yet he somehow finagled that puck across the line way more than other guys who supposedly were better goal scorers? Maybe just acknowledge they weren't better goal scorers.

He had amazing accuracy, a great backhand, a good release, scored a ton of hand-eye type goals, and his IQ got him a bunch of opportunity goals by just being in the right spot. The only thing he lacked was power, but with modern sticks even that might have changed. And of course being such a great playmaker meant teams had to give up some chances to defend against the passes.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInTampa]

Really, younknow for a fact it's because of goalies and not the fact that he was simply getting older and worn down? If so then you must also believe guys like Hull would have scored 100+ a few years earlier.

But yes, it is unprovable. I could claim that Selanne losing his warp speed to an Achilles injury cost him 10-15 breakaway goals a year and caused him to lose a step a few years sooner and if he'd not played in the DPE he'd be tops In goal scoring and Ovechkin would still be #2. You can't prove me wrong.



The point is, if the dropoff is because of the goaltending, then EVERYONE, not just Gretz, should have experienced the precipitous dropoff at the same time. He wasn't the only one scoring goals the way he did.



Oh really, now we're into hypothetical quotes? My hypothetical Gretzky quote is those guys can all suck it.



Krush was not exactly a HoF scorer, he was a good role player at best. Kurri was 31 when he got to LA and a shell of himself. Coffey was also flawed as ever. Blake was just a young kid, not the star he'd become later. Luc was a legit star but mostly did not play on Gretzky's line. And seriously, McSorley as an example of a great supporting cast? WTF?

Without Gretzky those teams were well below average.



I just know that even by the standards of the day, it didn't make sense that he could do what he did. Yet he somehow finagled that puck across the line way more than other guys who supposedly were better goal scorers? Maybe just acknowledge they weren't better goal scorers.

He had amazing accuracy, a great backhand, a good release, scored a ton of hand-eye type goals, and his IQ got him a bunch of opportunity goals by just being in the right spot. The only thing he lacked was power, but with modern sticks even that might have changed. And of course being such a great playmaker meant teams had to give up some chances to defend against the passes.

I am not answering all that. Ovechkin's accomplishment came at a much greater difficulty than Gretzky's relative to era and surrounding talent.

 

[Oddbob]

Do we really need another thread where people run down Gretzky to pump up others? Seems like every 6 months someone makes a thread either here or in the history section whose only goal is to crap on past players to hype up current ones.

 

[Oddbob]

Only someone who did not see Kurri play would say something like that. He was HHOF player with or without Gretzky.

He probably scores 150-200 fewer goals without Gretzky to be honest. He was a good player, but he wasn't exactly dominant apart from Wayne.

 

[Oddbob]

He literally led the Oilers in Shots 8 years in a row.

Yeah, and he could have had more with a shot first mentality. Your argument isn't what you think it is. Anyone who watched Gretzky play, will tell you he was a passer first and chose passing a lot more than shooting.

 

[Oddbob]

Why do you think the Oilers were scoring so much? Maybe because of the guy putting up 200+ points per year?

THIS, so much THIS! People just think Gretzky put up pts because he played with HOF'ers. Those guys picked up a lot of extra pts they wouldn't have if Gretzky was on another team. Even Coffey who I love, but he played with Gretz, Lemieux and then Yzerman for most of his career so his pt totals while still good on their own, were definitely heavily inflated from playing with 3 of the best offensive players of all time. Kurri was really good, but Gretz put him into another level. I don't think Kurri is held in such high regard if not for Wayne.

 

[FiveTacos]

I am not answering all that.

Well yeah, I suppose it'd be pretty difficult to argue that guys like McSorley, Krushelnyski, or a 20-something goal Kurri are somehow examples of a great supporting cast.

 

[Oddbob]

Why did the Oilers win a Stanley Cup their 2nd year without Gretzky (sweeping his Kings 4-0 along the way)? Why did Gretzky never win another Stanley Cup after leaving Edmonton?

Maybe take a look at the teams he was on. LA was largely a pretty bad team aside from Gretzky. NYR had Wayne at the end of his career and they too were pretty bad the last 2 seasons Gretz was there.

 

[Oddbob]

Just pointing out that almost all of the players that Won a Cup with Gretzky also Won without him. He can't say the same. Edmonton without Gretzky in the 80's still would have been Cup favorites. The Capitals without Ovechkin would be a lottery team.

The Oilers wouldn't have been dominant without Gretz, that is ridiculous to play it off like they made the team, not Wayne. No Wayne, and tremendous chance they have 1 and maybe no Cups during that time that Wayne was there. He was what made them dominant, not the other way around.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInTampa]

Well yeah, I suppose it'd be pretty difficult to argue that guys like McSorley, Krushelnyski, or a 20-something goal Kurri are somehow examples of a great supporting cast.

Yeah because Backstrom and Carlson are so much better

 

[FiveTacos]

Yeah because Backstrom and Carlson are so much better

Uh well yeah, they were actually, at least compared to what those "name" guys were in LA.

 

[CapsJunkie]

i would love to see prime Ovi and prime Gretzky play against each other, that would be entertaining. what if they were on the same team

 

[NVious]

This is objectively true, Ovie as an all time great may have had one of the worst group of teammates ever.

I guess you can say a lot of names fizzled out like Green, Kuznetsov, Semin, Varlamov, but still. The fact that he went his entire career without one clear HOF lock whereas other all time greats are playing with 2-3-4+ says a lot about his greatness.

It would be interesting compare his all time team vs other top 10 players all time teams with the following stipulation:
1.You can only use a player once (you get to choose the year)
2.You can't take a year that they didn't play together (i.e no taking prime Fedorov or Kolzig for Ovechkin)

Relative to other all time greats, I suspect it would be extremely poor and this is even biased towards Ovechkin's lesser teammates tbh because having HOF lock calibre teammates is something that cascades as a benefit if you get to have them year after year.

 

[tanti9]

I agree with most of what you said, but the bolded statement is what I object to.

Ovechkin definitely made some of his teammates better, just look at this season alone. Strome improved significantly since joining the Caps, Protas and Wilson are having career years on the other wing with him. Carlson got a ton of assists throughout his career thanks to Ovechkin’s PP goals.

I’m not saying he was as good as Gretzky at elevating his teammates (no one ever was), but he definitely made life easier for his teammates. The Caps haven’t had any other natural goal scorer since Semin in the early 2010s because Ovechkin can cover that need by himself. If you look at the 2025 Capitals roster, basically everyone else is a pass first player.

Fair enough, I see your point. In no way, shape or form was I not saying Ovechkin is not a great player.

Cheers

 

[GRob83]

Paul Coffey AVERAGED 31 Goals a year as a defenseman for Edmonton. That alone is better goal scoring production than any forward that Ovechkin has had as a teammate.

 

[Statto]

ovi is not greater than gretzky as gretzky is easily the best player in hockey history. Think its also fair to acknowledge gretzky played against standup goalies in games that ended 8-7 somebody most nights, accumulating a monster number of assists, the far easier stat to achieve, while playing with multiple top 100 players of all time in the 80s when players more commonly smoked/drank than trained the way they do now. The annoying saying on these boards is player x could have scored more goals if they wanted to, but they were more focused on playmaking. The truth is, they couldnt. Every single coach/gm in the nhl would convert these guys to sure fire goal scorers IF they could score goals regardless of who they play with. Ovi did have Backstrom but sadly, the hockey opinion is that he is not a HOF. Ovi is as rare a player as you can get, being able to do what he did.

Stand up goalies? Sure but Ovi uses sticks with huge whip and are far more forgiving of shooting technique than wooden sticks. Add in heavier skates, equipment etc. We can play that game all day.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gretzky scored 894 Goals while playing with at least 11 players that would go on to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glenn Andersen, Luc Robitaille, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, Brian Leetch, Pat Lafontaine and Grant Fuhr.

Ovechkin has 895 while never really playing with a slam dunk Hockey Hall of Fame candidate. Backstrom and Carlson would be the only possibilities IMO and they are borderline. Sergei Fedorov played a total of 70 games as a Capital when he was nearly 40 years old and had already established himself as 1st ballot HHOFer so should he count? Backstrom assisted on 279 Ovechkin goals so less than 1/3rd. What he has accomplished is more impressive because of who he accomplished it with IMO.

Why highlight that Fedorov only played 70 games with Ovechkin but not mention that LaFontaine only played 67 with Gretzky?

What does Grant Fuhr have to do with scoring records?

Why are you counting the proportion of Ovechkin’s goals that Backstrom assisted, but not counting the proportion of Gretzky’s goals that Lowe assisted?

For that matter why bring up Kevin Lowe but not Alex Semin or Mike Green when talking about offense?

Are we saying Lowe and Anderson are HHOF’ers if they’re not on Gretzky’s team? I mean come on, he made those HOF careers. How does that diminish him?

Your overall point isn’t wrong, Gretzky definitely played for the most offensively potent team in an era of firewagon offense, and it definitely did impact his numbers. But the framework of the argument is pretty unfair to him.

 

[CTHabsfan]

Unprovable? Gretzky went from 637 goals in his first 774 games to 257 in his last 713. The results speak for themselves. It isn't because it coincides with the dead puck era. It coincides with the likes of Roy, Hasek, Belfour and Richter beginning a goaltending renessiance at the beginning of the 1990's. Gretzky's unparalleled goal scoring genius came at the hands of destroying the same stand-up goaltending he had seen his entire life. He knew and understood every habit of that day.

But things changed. Guys like Hull, Lemieux, Jagr and Bure continued to succeed and score buckets well into the DPE because they were never not better, natural goal scorers than Gretzky. Gretzky himself would probably admit that any of those guys could have broken his record under different circumstances. And for what it's worth, Gretzky had Krushelnyski, Kurri, Coffey and McSorley all to follow him to LA on top of Rob Blake and Luc Robatille..Ovechkin never had a fraction of that kind of help and he had to do it in an era that has seldom been harder to score

The sky is the limit to Gretzky's playmaking. I don't doubt 100 assists in today's game. But if you think the dude is smacking home 77 unblocked shots in 2025 then idk what to tell you.

Gretzky's goal scoring declined due to injuries, not a lack of ability to translate his game to a new era.