Gretzky/Ovechkin. Major gap in supporting cast talent.

[GRob83]

Gretzky scored 894 Goals while playing with at least 11 players that would go on to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glenn Andersen, Luc Robitaille, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, Brian Leetch, Pat Lafontaine and Grant Fuhr.

Ovechkin has 895 while never really playing with a slam dunk Hockey Hall of Fame candidate. Backstrom and Carlson would be the only possibilities IMO and they are borderline. Sergei Fedorov played a total of 70 games as a Capital when he was nearly 40 years old and had already established himself as 1st ballot HHOFer so should he count? Backstrom assisted on 279 Ovechkin goals so less than 1/3rd. What he has accomplished is more impressive because of who he accomplished it with IMO.

 

[tanti9]

These are both all time great hockey players and played in different eras. I do believe that Gretzky made players around him better and that is something that Ovechkin has not done. I do think that it is highly possible that Kurri, Andersen and Lowe all would not be HOFers if it were not for Gretzky. Although Ovechkin is "now" the all time leading goal scorer, in my opinion Gretzky could have easily scored a lot more goals but it seemed The Great One enjoyed setting up his teammates (closest comparision I can think of is Kucherov). I do not think we will see someone again with Gretzky's hockey IQ again as he was always 3 steps ahead of everyone. Let's just enjoy both players from different eras as they are both totally different type of players but both unique in their way.

 

[FiveTacos]

Well sure, the Oilers were a dynasty, of course he had better teammates OTOH, Gretzky became the greatest goal scorer even though he was a better playnamaker than goal scorer, which is impressive and amazing in a whole different way. It would be as if the NBA all time assist leader also scored more than Kareem.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Totally different players and different eras too. Both go down as all time greats in the end.

 

[Team_Spirit]

It's easier to stack talent when you compete with 21 teams instead of 32.

Thread 'I don't believe in the "expansion will dilute the talent pool" argument'

Mar 31, 2025

Maybe back in 1967-1968 when the talent pool had all Canadians.

Back then, you had no Russians, no Swedes, no Finns, and no Americans in the talent pool.

I don't think expansion will dilute the talent pool this time around.

The talent pool is getting deeper. You have more talented Americans dominating the rosters.

You have the European talent base getting stronger. Canadians talent pool is dwindling because lack of interest.

So when the NHL expands in a couple of years, the talent pool, already discussed, will get stronger, not weaker.

• sawchuk1971
• Replies: 188
• Forum: National Hockey League Talk

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[Sasha Orlov]

Major gap in points too

 

[acor]

What he has accomplished is more impressive because of who he accomplished it with IMO.

IMO what Gretzky did was more impressive, because a) he wasn't primary a sniper and b) goal scoring is really only a small part of his legacy, when in case of Ovechkin it will be biggest part of his legacy.

 

[Grifter3511]

Call me crazy, but I feel that having over 1100 more points than Ovechkin in the same time frame is more impressive than who either of them was playing with.

 

[GRob83]

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that Nicklas Backstrom and John Carlson have the best chance at being Hall of Famers and neither of them are locks. Backstrom is probably borderline and Carlson a long shot IMO. Nowhere near as good as Gretzky's past teammates.

 

[BusQuets]

These are both all time great hockey players and played in different eras. I do believe that Gretzky made players around him better and that is something that Ovechkin has not done. I do think that it is highly possible that Kurri, Andersen and Lowe all would not be HOFers if it were not for Gretzky. Although Ovechkin is "now" the all time leading goal scorer, in my opinion Gretzky could have easily scored a lot more goals but it seemed The Great One enjoyed setting up his teammates (closest comparision I can think of is Kucherov). I do not think we will see someone again with Gretzky's hockey IQ again as he was always 3 steps ahead of everyone. Let's just enjoy both players from different eras as they are both totally different type of players but both unique in their way.

Only someone who did not see Kurri play would say something like that. He was HHOF player with or without Gretzky.

 

[Edmonton East]

Sigh. Idk why some folks insist on oversimplifying comparing players across eras. You could cherry pick advantages/disadvantages for the Ovechkin and Gretzky eras to fit whatever argument you are trying to make.

2 of the top players ever. Just leave it at that.

 

[Caps8112]

Call me crazy, but I feel that having over 1100 more points than Ovechkin in the same time frame is more impressive than who either of them was playing with.

ovi is not greater than gretzky as gretzky is easily the best player in hockey history. Think its also fair to acknowledge gretzky played against standup goalies in games that ended 8-7 somebody most nights, accumulating a monster number of assists, the far easier stat to achieve, while playing with multiple top 100 players of all time in the 80s when players more commonly smoked/drank than trained the way they do now. The annoying saying on these boards is player x could have scored more goals if they wanted to, but they were more focused on playmaking. The truth is, they couldnt. Every single coach/gm in the nhl would convert these guys to sure fire goal scorers IF they could score goals regardless of who they play with. Ovi did have Backstrom but sadly, the hockey opinion is that he is not a HOF. Ovi is as rare a player as you can get, being able to do what he did.

 

[GRob83]

Gretzky last led the league in Goals at age 26. Ovechkin has led the league in Goals 7X since turning 27.

For everyone saying Gretzky was always setting his teammates up with passes instead of shooting, he had 476 more shots than any other Oilers forward from 81/82 - 85/86 and led the league in shots on goal 4X in that span while Edmonton scored 398 more goals than any other team. During his entire tenure with Edmonton he took 915 more shots than any other Oiler and the team scored 469 more Goals than any other team.

 

[tanti9]

Only someone who did not see Kurri play would say something like that. He was HHOF player with or without Gretzky.

I was a kid back then and watched Kurri and Gretzky throughout their careers and I am not saying Kurri was not a start but Gretzky leveled Kurrri up. Without Gretzky Kurri was still a ppg player but so were a ton of other 80 players

 

[BusQuets]

I was a kid back then and watched Kurri and Gretzky throughout their careers and I am not saying Kurri was not a start but Gretzky leveled Kurrri up. Without Gretzky Kurri was still a ppg player but so were a ton of other 80 players

Kurri played 154 games and scored 195 points in edmonton after Gretzky left. While being selke level player defensively. Oh and also won stanley Cup. Ovechkin would have couple more cups and points if he had someone like Kurri next to him.

 

[FiveTacos]

For everyone saying Gretzky was always setting his teammates up with passes instead of shooting, he had 476 more shots than any other Oilers forward from 81/82 - 85/86 and led the league in shots on goal 4X in that span while Edmonton scored 398 more goals than any other team.

But he was also setting teammates up more often by a large margin as well. He was definitely not a shoot first player, he just got more chances and created more chances in every measurable way, both passing and shooting. If there were a stat for how often players passed, the margin over his teammates would be even greater than the shot differential.

 

[InsideLaineBOOM]

Well, lets put it like this:
- if you asked me 10 years ago which of these 2 options are more likely:
A. Ovechkin breaking Gretzky's goal record
or
B. Matthews scoring 4 goals in his debut

I would say A, definitely A. So basically what Matthews did was more unlikely. And do we compare Matthews to Gretzky? No I dont think so.

 

[TheFinalWord]

I don't understand why some Ovi fans are so insecure that they need to create narratives as to why Ovi isn't better than Gretzky. Ovi is what he is. He did what he did. Greatest goal scorer ever. Hard to argue that point (although some still will). Just because Gretzky played with the shell of Larry Robinson or those 67 games in Pat Lafontaine's final season, doesn't really change anything.

 

[Booker T]

I never like these short of arguments. It's like saying "Gretzky might have had a lot more goals if he didn't have that much talent around him since he would have had a shoot first mentality".

 

[GRob83]

But he was also setting teammates up more often by a large margin as well. He was definitely not a shoot first player, he just got more chances and created more chances in every measurable way, both passing and shooting. If there were a stat for how often players passed, the margin over his teammates would be even greater than the shot differential.

He literally led the Oilers in Shots 8 years in a row.

 

[FiveTacos]

He literally led the Oilers in Shots 8 years in a row.

But he also led them in assists. Having the most shots does not make him a shoot first player. How much did you watch him play?

 

[GRob83]

But he also led them in assists. Having the most shots does not make him a shoot first player. How much did you watch him play?

Enough to know that the goaltending was absolute garbage and scoring was extremely high. Jari Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Mark Messier, Paul Coffey, Mike Krushelnyski and Craig Simpson had 40+ Goal seasons when Gretzky was on the Oilers. Alex Semin is the only Capital other than Ovechkin to score 40+ in a season over the last 20 years and it only happened once.

 

[Grifter3511]

Enough to know that the goaltending was absolute garbage and scoring was extremely high. Jari Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Mark Messier, Paul Coffey, Mike Krushelnyski and Craig Simpson had 40+ Goal seasons when Gretzky was on the Oilers. Alex Semin is the only Capital other than Ovechkin to score 40+ in a season over the last 20 years and it only happened once.

If Ovechkin was routinely putting up 100+ assists a season instead of 40, there'd probably be a lot more 40 goal scorers on his team.

If the whole point of this thread is to just say Ovechkin's 895 goals are more impressive than Gretzky's 894, I think almost everyone would agree with you. If you're trying to say Ovechkin's goals make him a better player than Gretzky, then that's where you will get the major pushback.

 

[Oilslick941611]

I agree. Ovechkin is more impressive than Gretzky at goal scoring.

I’m not defending Gretzky at all, but he played in an era where players smoked and drank in between periods, took summers off from practice and training and had a low level bottom roster talent. The 5th and 6th Defensemen of most teams could barely skate backwards, the goalies were letting in clean slap shots from 50 feet away. The game wasn’t a scholastic enterprise in Gretzky day. When Gretzky was growing up he wasn’t off at summer camp learning how to play and learning nutrition. Hell, Gretzky himself says his pre game meals was McDonalds.

As with every new era and record, the people breaking them have the benefit of being able to stand on the shoulders of giants. Ovechkin benefited from better coaching, better tactics, better training, better video analysis. As a result there has been a massive skill rise throughout the lineups of teams in the modern NHL. I dont think it’s unfair to say that Ovechkin had to overcome a higher level of adversity, talent, and deep line ups with better players filling out bottom.6 roles than what Gretzky had to deal with

As we know you can’t just plop someone from a different era and put them in a new and expect the same results. Ovechkin was a massive train of a player both physically and talent wise, he is the greatest goal soccer in NHL history, but i do feel if you take a 1979 Gretzky and put him in the modern NHL, he’s gonna look worse than Bédard does right now.

 

[FiveTacos]

Enough to know that the goaltending was absolute garbage and scoring was extremely high.

Yet not enough to know Gretzky was still a pass first player despite the shot totals.

But sure, go ahead and believe that the guy who has more assists than anyone else has points was a shoot first player. Not a hill I'd die on, but not my dime.