WTG
December 5th
It's to be expected, most people can't do conditional hyptheticals.
Wason selection task - Wikipedia
You turn over the 8 and red card.
"In Wason's study, not even 10% of subjects found the correct solution"
Gretzky Bros Vs The Hughes Bros
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"In Wason's study, not even 10% of subjects found the correct solution"
North Cole
♧ Lem
- Jan 22, 2017
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I think part of what makes it hard is that we've been trained that most of these tests are slanted toward pattern recognition. So rather than treat the cards as discrete objects we assume they are all tied together. I would flip the 3 and 8 expecting to see red on the 3 and blue on the 8, thus odd cards are red and blue cards are even. But it very well could be odd, even, odd, odd and technically work just fine because the blue-odd doesn't matter when the question is trying to disprove that even face cards must be blue.It's to be expected, most people can't do conditional hyptheticals.
Wason selection task - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
You turn over the 8 and red card.
"In Wason's study, not even 10% of subjects found the correct solution"
It seems to me the test is less about whether you can do a conditional hypothetical, and more about whether you can stop yourself from starting with a faulty assumption. Of course we do better when it's policing a social rule because we are not pre-programmed to boil it down into a pattern recognition test.
I wonder if younger test subjects would have more success.
I'm also not sure this supports the other posters argument because the conditional in this case is that you don't need to keep Wayne's brothers. If I can literally waive them, then I'm not really comparing Wayne and his brothers to the Hughes brothers. I'm comparing adding Wayne to a team and the difference between him and the player he replaces. To the difference between the guys the Hughes brothers replace. Which although are bottom pairing and fourth line players, are not actually as bad as Wayne's brothers.
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dirtydanglez
Registered User
- Oct 30, 2022
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The only way the Hughes' win this is in the completely unrealistic fantasy scenario where both teams are made of completely equal replacement level players.
Any other situation and Gretzky is the answer.
That and I assume the people saying "do you not know how good the Hughes are?" probably actually don't know how good Wayne was.
Any other situation and Gretzky is the answer.
That and I assume the people saying "do you not know how good the Hughes are?" probably actually don't know how good Wayne was.
gritdash60
Registered User
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Agreed, I think the poll just leaves too much for interpretation. IMO poll questions should be as explicit as possible and don't leave place for different scenarios.
It's like criterias for prospect eligibility. I have been running ranking polls on the Sens board for years and I have seen people come up with so many different eligibility criterias... it's almost like everyone has their own way of considering a player as a prospect or not. But I always stuck with HF initial criterias which was under 25 y/o and 65 NHL games experience for skaters. At some point, you have to be black or white.
lol you're comparing 3 players vs 3 players, OF COURSE everything else is equal
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The Gr8 Dane
L'harceleur
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
The lack of logic I see a bit everywhere makes me worried.
North Cole
♧ Lem
- Jan 22, 2017
- 11,878
- 13,562
Yeah I agree, I mean if I was forced to ice both trios I don't remotely consider taking the Gretzky's.
But if I'm substituting any number of these players onto a real team, like EDM, I think for now I take Wayne. I personally think adding Wayne to EDM in place of Dereck Ryan just works better. Wayne > McDavid on the first line. Drai on the third line > Jack Hughes. Quinn becomes our best defenseman by a long shot, Quinn > Emberson and Luke > Stetcher as the players they replace. Cap savings is close to nil since Gretzky on a max contract is basically equal to the current Hughes' contracts. In a couple years when their cap hits are bigger I probably would take them over a max contract Gretzky since savings 22M+ is significantly better.
But like you said, that becomes an insane amount of extra work to get to a sensible answer and kind of defeats the purpose of making a poll.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Yeah so here you just invented your own scenario, there could be 99 different scenarios. Which is why I opted for pure logic.
The Gr8 Dane
L'harceleur
I see it as you put the 3 Waynes with 16 Brendan Gallaghers Vs the 3 Hughes with 16 Brendan Gallaghers who is the better team lol
Just the fact you have a top 3 D in the league eating 30 minutes of the game is huge
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Just saw on NHL edge that Luke Hughes is actually one of the fastest skaters among D-men in the league. We talk about Jack and Quinn here but Luke over one of Wayne's bros is also huuuuuuge.
OP literally says "they don't count against your team's salary cap" and "you can trade them".
If both teams were identical, the cap implications wouldn't matter. Trading also means you can use them to get different players, which wouldn't make any sense if all other players are identical.
The OP is literally asking about adding them to your team, not a team comprised completely of Brendan Gallaghers. They also reference exchanging them for different players than the ones in your team, implying that not every non-Gretzky/non-Hughes player in the league is identical.
Applying the concept to real world situations is where thought can flourish and answers can be found. Making the assumption that all other components are equal removes the need to ask the question in the first place as it simply becomes a "who is better" question, you're simply comparing 3v3, rather than actually answering the question that was posed "Which group would you add to your team"
But go on about a lack of logic.
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Which makes the poll totally impossible to answer. I talked about it already...
Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk
Effortless sexy.
Hughes bros. likely better at both end of ice, so won't need gaudy scoring/assist totals to make their teams win. Also the health issues are a maybe factor, once Gary Suter apocalypsed Gretzky there was a change there.
Gretzky bros AINEC looking from the Jets POV.
Connor - Gretzky - Vilardi
Perfetti - Scheifele - Ehlers
Morrissey - DeMelo
Samberg - Pionk
>>>>>
Connor - Scheifele Vilardi
Perfetti - Hughes - Ehlers
Morrissey - Hughes
Hughes - Pionk
Connor - Gretzky - Vilardi
Perfetti - Scheifele - Ehlers
Morrissey - DeMelo
Samberg - Pionk
>>>>>
Connor - Scheifele Vilardi
Perfetti - Hughes - Ehlers
Morrissey - Hughes
Hughes - Pionk
gritdash60
Registered User
The question was Gretzky bros vs. Hughes bros, not some random Jets roster.
"Who would you rather take? Both don't count against your team's salary cap and you can trade them if you want."
Bolded part of the OP for you. My team is the Jets, the other Gretzky brothers are riding the pine
gritdash60
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2005
- 36,149
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The answer is heavily dependent on which era you're playing in. Today's hockey puts such an emphasis on skating vs the 80s. Once Europeans started coming over and back checking became a thing, the pace started really picking up. As that continued, Gretzky became far less dominant, as he wasn't an elite skater, and his button hooks and lateral cuts across the top of the circles were much less effective when there was back pressure.
He never paced for 40 goals after the 90-91 season. In 91-92 at 30 y/o, he finished with 31g in 74gp, which was 40th in goals per game that year (>50gp).
Yeah, his age was a factor, but you don't go from leading the league's next best goal scorer by 30-50% in your early to mid 20s to being the 40th best goal scorer at 30 just because of your age. The shift in the league's play style had a disproportionately negative impact on him vs great skaters like Mike Gartner, whose goal scoring rates were pretty much the same in the early 80s and early 90s.
I don't think Gretzky would be nearly as dominant in today's NHL. Probably closer to a 40g 100-130 point center. Obviously still an elite offensive player, but not a head above the rest.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Nope I took the Hughes brothers and inserted them on Canada's roster then I incorporated the Gretzkys on Kazakhstan's roster.
Canada with the Hughes would win.
Good post. Just with adjusted scoring, 200 pts in the early 80's would be 150 pts today. I know these analyses are not going to be popular within the Canadian population because it makes their hero look more "human" but Gretzky was not some kind of a superman, he was the best player of the 80's
- 1988-Aug-09 Traded from Edmonton Oilers with Mike Krushelnyski and Marty McSorley to Los Angeles Kings for Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, round 1 pick in the 1989 draft (Jason Miller), round 1 pick in the 1991 draft (Martin Rucinsky), round 1 pick in the 1993 draft (Nick Stajduhar) and cash (15 million , Wayne's salary was 2 million - highest in the league Mario's was 1.5 million ).
- Jimmy Carson was a #2 OV , Martin Gelinas was a 7th OV , so it was 5 1st and nearly a full teams salary
the valiant effort
settle down, bud
- Apr 17, 2017
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He played 675 games in the 90s, almost half his career. He was 43rd in goals in that span, 53rd in goals per game (>200gp).Did Gretzky even play in the '90s?
He was obviously still an elite playmaker, but his goal scoring prowess really fell off as the league's pace picked up in the late 80s into the early 90s.
Even from age 26-30 (87-88 to 91-92 seasons) he was 8th in the league in goals, almost 100 goals behind the leader. The prior 5 years? He led the league by 45 goals, 140 ahead of 8th place. That's a crazy dramatic swing that can't be explained by aging - it's a symptom of changing dynamics as more speed and skill flooded the league. Gretzky's style would be far less effective today, though he'd still be an elite offensive player.
Somewhat unrelated, but Mario was far and away the most dominant player of the 90s.
Damn Mario.
