Gordie Howe's Extremely Weak Competition For Scoring Titles: A Comparison With Connor McDavid.

[Staniowski]

Everybody who's studied hockey history is well aware of the extremely weak scoring talent in the NHL when Gordie Howe was winning his four consecutive scoring titles. He was essentially competing against nobody (even though there were a couple good scorers).

As a start to demonstrate the weakness that existed, take a look at the players, below. This is a list of the approximate 20-best scoring forwards of the five consective birth years with Howe's birth year at the centre...so, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930. The same thing for Connor McDavid (plus the significant overflow for McDavid's). If you go back many years before 1926, it's not much different; it gets stronger after 1930.

This gives a pretty good flavour of what each guy was competing against (and you can certainly look more closely for exact competition).

This shows the huge differences in the talent of forwards in the NHL in the early 1950s vs the early 2020s.

McDavid's cohort is very strong. If you do the same for Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby...all very strong also.

Howe is basically the only scoring star among his 5-year cohort, and this is the main reason he dominated scoring those four seasons.

Gordie Howe - Connor McDavid
Bert Olmstead - Nathan MacKinnon
Don Raleigh - Leon Draisaitl
Ted Slian - Alexander Barkov
Nick Mickoski - Sam Reinhart
Metro Pristai - David Pastrnak
Marty Pavelich - Mikko Rantanen
Wally Hergesheimer - Brayden Point
Paul Ronty - William Nylander
Ed Sandford - Jack Eichel
Vic Stasiuk - Kyle Connor
Andy Hebenton - Dylan Larkin
Fleming Mackell - Mitch Marner
Red Sullivan - Auston Matthews
Johnny Wilson - Matthew Tkachuk
George Armstrong - Sébastien Aho
Bronco Horvath - Kiriil Kaprizov
Doug Creighton - Elias Pettersson
Ditch Reibel - Brady Tkachuk
Larry Popein - Martin Necas

Plus (for McDavid)...Horvat, Nichushkin, Buchnevich, Kempe, Tuch, Bennett, Ehlers, Konecny, Barzal, Strome, Erickson Ek, Cirelli, Keller, Bratt, Hagel, Laine, Hischier, Suzuki, Thomas, Robertson.

 

[JackSlater]

Everyone who knows anything and has eyes knows that McDavid's competition for scoring titles has been mediocre and that JackSlater is an extremely handsome devil. Anybody who is anybody knows that. People in the past also all agreed precisely with what I'm saying.

 

[Professor What]

Everybody who's studied hockey history is well aware of the extremely weak scoring talent in the NHL when Gordie Howe was winning his four consecutive scoring titles. He was essentially competing against nobody (even though there were a couple good scorers).

As a start to demonstrate the weakness that existed, take a look at the players, below. This is a list of the approximate 20-best scoring forwards of the five consective birth years with Howe's birth year at the centre...so, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930. The same thing for Connor McDavid (plus the significant overflow for McDavid's). If you go back many years before 1926, it's not much different; it gets stronger after 1930.

This gives a pretty good flavour of what each guy was competing against (and you can certainly look more closely for exact competition).

This shows the huge differences in the talent of forwards in the NHL in the early 1950s vs the early 2020s.

McDavid's cohort is very strong. If you do the same for Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby...all very strong also.

Howe is basically the only scoring star among his 5-year cohort, and this is the main reason he dominated scoring those four seasons.

Gordie Howe - Connor McDavid
Bert Olmstead - Nathan MacKinnon
Don Raleigh - Leon Draisaitl
Ted Slian - Alexander Barkov
Nick Mickoski - Sam Reinhart
Metro Pristai - David Pastrnak
Marty Pavelich - Mikko Rantanen
Wally Hergesheimer - Brayden Point
Paul Ronty - William Nylander
Ed Sandford - Jack Eichel
Vic Stasiuk - Kyle Connor
Andy Hebenton - Dylan Larkin
Fleming Mackell - Mitch Marner
Red Sullivan - Auston Matthews
Johnny Wilson - Matthew Tkachuk
George Armstrong - Sébastien Aho
Bronco Horvath - Kiriil Kaprizov
Doug Creighton - Elias Pettersson
Ditch Reibel - Brady Tkachuk
Larry Popein - Martin Necas

Plus (for McDavid)...Horvat, Nichushkin, Buchnevich, Kempe, Tuch, Bennett, Ehlers, Konecny, Barzal, Strome, Erickson Ek, Cirelli, Keller, Bratt, Hagel, Laine, Hischier, Suzuki, Thomas, Robertson.

And this is extremely misleading. I can prove that with one name: Jean Beliveau. Just because he wasn't born within two years of Howe doesn't mean that they didn't very significantly overlap and weren't competition with each other. It ignores Bobby Hull and Maurice Richard that had noticeable overlap with him too. Why do you even post stuff like this lacking the real context unless you're trying to be dishonest?

 

[Staniowski]

And this is extremely misleading. I can prove that with one name: Jean Beliveau. Just because he wasn't born within two years of Howe doesn't mean that they didn't very significantly overlap and weren't competition with each other. It ignores Bobby Hull and Maurice Richard that had noticeable overlap with him too. Why do you even post stuff like this lacking the real context unless you're trying to be dishonest?

It's not even slightly misleading.

If you read my post, this thread is entirely about Howe's four consecutive scoring titles in the 1950s. Beliveau and Hull are not factors. Maurice Richard was in his 30s. Howe's competition in those seasons is very weak and shallow, as anybody can clearly see.

 

[Professor What]

It's not even slightly misleading.

If you read my post, this thread is entirely about Howe's four consecutive scoring titles in the 1950s. Beliveau and Hull are not factors. Maurice Richard was in his 30s. Howe's competition in those seasons is very weak and shallow, as anybody can clearly see.

It's extremely misleading. Let's look at some facts.

Scoring race in 1950-51:

Maurice Richard* • MTL

Max Bentley* • TOR

Sid Abel* • DET

Ted Kennedy* • TOR

Milt Schmidt* • BOS

[td]
1.​

[/td]​

[td]Gordie Howe* • DET[/td]

[td]
86​

[/td]​

[td]
2.

[/td]
[td]
66

[/td]
[td]
3.

[/td]
[td]
62

[/td]
[td]
4.

[/td]
[td]
61

[/td]
[td]
61

[/td]
[td]
61

[/td]​

A bunch of Hall of Famers there, that he completely lapped. And all names conveniently left off of your list.

1951-52:

Ted Lindsay* • DET

Elmer Lach* • MTL

Don Raleigh • NYR

Sid Smith • TOR

[td]
1.​

[/td]​

[td]Gordie Howe* • DET[/td]

[td]
86​

[/td]​

[td]
2.

[/td]
[td]
69

[/td]
[td]
3.

[/td]
[td]
65

[/td]
[td]
4.

[/td]
[td]
61

[/td]
[td]
5.

[/td]
[td]
57

[/td]​

Okay, so Raleigh and Smith aren't impressive names, but again, you don't mention Lindsay or Lach.

1952-53:

Ted Lindsay* • DET

Maurice Richard* • MTL

Alex Delvecchio* • DET

Wally Hergesheimer • NYR

[td]
1.​

[/td]​

[td]Gordie Howe* • DET[/td]

[td]
95​

[/td]​

[td]
2.

[/td]
[td]
71

[/td]
[td]
3.

[/td]
[td]
61

[/td]
[td]
4.

[/td]
[td]
59

[/td]
[td]
59

[/td]​

Again, I'll grant you Hergesheimer. But I see great names that were ignored.

1953-54:

Maurice Richard* • MTL

Ted Lindsay* • DET

Bernie Geoffrion* • MTL

Bert Olmstead* • MTL

[td]
1.​

[/td]​

[td]Gordie Howe* • DET[/td]

[td]
81​

[/td]​

[td]
2.

[/td]
[td]
67

[/td]
[td]
3.

[/td]
[td]
62

[/td]
[td]
4.

[/td]
[td]
54

[/td]
[td]
5.

[/td]
[td]
52

[/td]​

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm noticing a theme.

But, let's pretend for a moment that theses were nobodies. Howe still led the league by 30%, 25%, 34%, and 21%. That would be impressive regardless, but the guys he's outpacing makes it even more so. I stand by saying that the idea of using birth years, rather than looking at who's actually in the league and actually doing what is deceptive. It strikes me as another hit piece against Howe, which has become far too common as of late.

Edit: It screwed up the tables, but if anyone can't piece it together, they can easily look up the information on Hockey Reference. It tells an impressive tale.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Maybe the history section isn’t the best place for you to continually post about how todays players are bionic superheroes in comparison to the plumbers in the past..

 

[Staniowski]

Maybe the history section isn’t the best place for you to continually post about how todays players are bionic superheroes in comparison to the plumbers in the past..

I'm clearly saying that McDavid's competition in scoring races over the past several years is a LOT stronger than Howe's from '51 to '54. If you disagree with that, I'd like to hear your argument.

I think MacKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl are much better than Ronty, Sandford, Herdesheimer. You disagree?

 

[Professor What]

I'm clearly saying that McDavid's competition in scoring races over the past several years is a LOT stronger than Howe's from '51 to '54. If you disagree with that, I'd like to hear your argument.

I think MacKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl are much better than Ronty, Sandford, Herdesheimer. You disagree?

Nobody's saying that are they? I think we've got Richard, Lindsay, Geoffrion, Lach, Abel, and Delvecchio much more in mind.

 

[The Panther]

Another day, another chance to crap on the hockey legends of the past...


So, if Howe was only doing well with such weak competition when he was winning four-straight scoring titles, how do you explain why Howe was the NHL's highest scoring player from when he was 30 to when he was 40? (Actually, in per-game stats Howe was all of 0.02 PPG behind 11-years-younger Bobby Hull.)

 

[Nathaniel]

While I agree the competition was not as good back then. 21 top 10 finishes cannot be overlooked

 

[Professor What]

Another day, another chance to crap on the hockey legends of the past...


So, if Howe was only doing well with such weak competition when he was winning four-straight scoring titles, how do you explain why Howe was the NHL's highest scoring player from when he was 30 to when he was 40? (Actually, in per-game stats Howe was all of 0.02 PPG behind 11-years-younger Bobby Hull.)

Trailing by 0.02!? What a bum!

 

[Staniowski]

Nobody's saying that are they? I think we've got Richard, Lindsay, Geoffrion, Lach, Abel, and Delvecchio much more in mind.

Richard, Lach, and Abel are a generation older than Howe. It would be like Malkin, Crosby, Getzlaf, etc. to McDavid.

Geoffrion and Delvecchio are young and not yet at their best...

That leaves Lindsay, the only half-decent scorer at his best at the same time as Howe, which is the entire point of the thread.

The players who are at their best, competing against Howe are historically very, very weak. That's what thread is about.

 

[Staniowski]

While I agree the competition was not as good back then. 21 top 10 finishes cannot be overlooked

Howe was a great player and I like his game a lot.

The thread is solely about his competition in the first half of the '50s.

 

[Professor What]

Richard, Lach, and Abel are a generation older than Howe. It would be like Malkin, Crosby, Getzlaf, etc. to McDavid.

Geoffrion and Delvecchio are young and not yet at their best...

That leaves Lindsay, the only half-decent scorer at his best at the same time as Howe, which is the entire point of the thread.

The players who are at their best, competing against Howe are historically very, very weak. That's what thread is about.

I still ask though, if you're not trying to be misleading, why did you leave out the most important names you could have used in your original post. Had you mentioned them, I still would have disagreed with the lengths you're going with your premise, but since you didn't, it's really bordering on dishonesty.

 

[MadLuke]

Because he named the players born in a 5 years window of Howe the: 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930.

Richard did turn 30 summer of 1951, very similar to Crosby-Ovechkin-Malkin when McDavid started to win Art Ross and he was not someone that was winning Ross before Howe arrived on the scene either. (It did me a while to understand the message I will admit).

Kelly seem to be missing, but teammate are a bit of a strange spot.

 

[Professor What]

Because he named the players born in a 5 years window of Howe the: 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930.

Richard did turn 30 summer of 1951, very similar to Crosby-Ovechkin-Malkin when McDavid started to win Art Ross and he was not someone that was winning Ross before Howe arrived on the scene either. (It did me a while to understand the message I will admit).

Kelly seem to be missing, but teammate are a bit of a strange spot.

I know what he did, but it was still a method that led to the top competitors for those scoring races to be ignored. It also ignores the magnitude by which Howe won those scoring races. I just can't get past the feeling that there was a narrative that was the goal here and that the means to reach that conclusion were taken. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just find the original post to be very poor quality.

 

[MadLuke]

I think the quality of the old guy is high enough to not just remove them, but it is a good point.

Non teammate competition
1951: Richard (29) , Bentley (31), they won 0 Art Ross together before that year and clearly past their prime.
1952: Lach (34), Raleigh (25), Lach was an previous Ross winner on a strong line, but quite old by then
1953: Richard (31), Hergesheimer(26)
1954: Richard (32), Geoffrion (22), Geoffrion would won the Art Ross the next year, so was getting close to peak.

 

[Vilica]

Based on my rough count (following the same principles as my Jagr post, converting Howe's results to post-lockout scoring levels each season), 50-51 Howe wins 3 of 20 scoring races, 51-52 wins 5 of 20, 52-53 wins 17 of 20, and 53-54 9 of 20. His 56-57 is almost identical to his 51-52, so it wins 5 scoring races as well, and his 62-63 beats only Jamie Benn.

It isn't like those four seasons aren't impressive, if you converted it to this year's scoring, Howe puts up 112, 117, 140, and 120 point totals. You could certainly see a hypothetical Howe season beat Kucherov's 121 points (from his 51-52 or 53-54 season), were they actually competing, as opposed to Howe having a double digit lead and coasting at the end of the year.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Charles Dickens was born in 1812. Looking at his competition — novelists born during the 5-year period of 1810-1814 — there’s really just William Makepeace Thackeray (born 1911) who wrote anything of note.

I’ll ignore Charlotte Brontë (Jane Eyre), Emily Brontë (Wuthering Heights), George Eliot (Middlemarch), Fyodor Dostoevsky(Crime and Punishment), Herman Melville (Moby Dick), Nathaniel Hawthorne (The Scarlet Letter).

Oh, and I guess Thomas Hardy and Mark Twain are also out because they, too, were not born in the 5-year window surrounding Dickens’s birth.

Next week, I’ll outline why Stephen King (born 1947) blows Dickens away because of all the great novelists born between 1945-1949.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Think you need to expand parameter, as written you’d be saying Kucherov isn’t McDavid’s competition because he’s four birth years apart.

 

[VanIslander]

Ovechkin & Crosby joined the NHL just as over a dozen of the greatest ever were recently retired or soon to be so.

Now the number of top-tier performers is closer to the 1990's level.

 

[Staniowski]

Think you need to expand parameter, as written you’d be saying Kucherov isn’t McDavid’s competition because he’s four birth years apart.

I've already stated it very clearly in the OP. The comparison isn't limited to those 5 birth years. The five birth years is just a starting point which demonstrates that McDavid's competition is very strong, and Howe's was very weak, which is obvious. I said that everybody can look at the exact competition in the scoring leaders for those seasons.

 

[Crosby2010]

Just isolating it to the 4 in a row Howe won from the early to mid 1950s. I look at it like this.

1951 - Richard, Max Bentley, Abel, Kennedy, Schmidt and Lindsay followed him in the scoring race. 2nd place was 20 points behind Howe. I mean, to be fair, that's some serious name recognition there. The Rocket was only 28 this particular season. He's in his prime no doubt. Bentley is getting older, so is Kennedy and Schmidt and Abel only has one more good year in him after this. But Lindsay is Howe's age within a couple of years.

1952 - Lindsay (17 points behind Howe), Lach, Raleigh, Smith, Geoffrion, Abel. Lach had his last great year, definitely less name recognition here, Geoffrion was a rookie this season. The Rocket missed about 20 games that year too.

1953 - Lindsay (25 points back of Howe), Richard, Delvecchio, Hergesheimer, Ronty, Prystai. No, it is not a deep year for scoring. Think of it like Jagr in 2000 or something if I can compare it. Lindsay and Richard are the obvious best competition here. Delvecchio was coming into his own. There is always once in a while obscure players in the top 5-10 of scoring in certain given years that don't fit in, so that explains the rest.

1954 - Richard (14 points back of Howe), Lindsay Geoffrion, Olmstead, Kelly. Not bad, Geoffrion misses 16 games. He'd win the scoring title the following year. There are better years than 1954.

I can get behind the idea that this was a weaker time than the later 1950s and 1960s. I think that is true for sure. I also think that something criminally underrated is how Howe dominated the scoring race these years. Weaker top end competition and depth or not, that's some serious separation. I might liken it to Jagr's 4 in a row as far as competition goes. Hey, you're still doing this in the NHL, and there is a reason only 4 guys have ever won 4 Art Rosses in a row. It isn't easy.

Now how do we compare it to McDavid? I think 2017 was a season with weakish competition. 2018 a bit better. 2019 better than that too although we know he only won in 2017 and 2018. Kucherov getting 128 points is a good example of someone who just had a monster year despite McDavid continually improving every year. 2021 was not a season that any of us like to remember. He did dominate, but I am wondering if it is like one of Howe's years where the competition was a bit weaker that year. 2022 it was stronger and 2023 it was strong too and he blew everyone out of the water. That's his 5 Art Rosses. And let's face it, 2024 you get 130 points and not win the Art Ross, that means you had good competition. This year too he's right there in PPG, he just missed 15 games. And look at the ones who beat him when he doesn't win. Kucherov, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. Lock cinch HHOFers. Among the best of their generation. So if I give a grade between the two, I think McDavid had a bit stronger competition.

But.................this all goes out the window with Howe in my mind because he hung around every single year for 20 straight seasons. And still won two scoring titles after 1954. 1957 and especially 1963 had some good competition. He was beating Howe for the scoring race in the early 1950s but he still beat Hull, Mikita, Bathgate, Beliveau in other years. That's some serious range.

 

[Matsun]

I think Howe was born in the right time to win some easy hardware. He had that stretch with the main competition where old players from the war era and Richard who never won a scoring title. The league was about to become really strong but not for a few seasons and Howe took full advantage. The same can be said for Esposito who got to peak in the late 60s.

If McDavid was drafted in 2009 he would've been even more dominant.

Season	Scoring champion	MVP
2009-10	H.Sedin (82-29-83-112)	Ovechkin
2010-11	D.Sedin (82-41-63-104)	Perry
2011-12	Malkin (75-50-59-109)	Malkin
2012-13	St Louis (48-17-43-60)	Ovechkin
2013-14	Crosby (80-36-68-104)	Crosby
2014-15	Benn (82-35-52-87)	Price
2015-16	Kane (82-46-60-106)	Kane
2016-17	McDavid (82-30-70-100)	McDavid
2017-18	McDavid (82-41-67-108)	Hall

McDavid probably has 6-7 scoring titles already after 17-18.

As it is McDavid got 1 ''easy'' Art Ross win in 16-17 and another kind of easy win in 17-18 due to injuries to MacKinnon before his competition caught up and they all went to another level.

	McDavid 82 Game Pace	McDavid GP	Kucherov 82 Game Pace	Kucherov GP	MacKinnon 82 Game Pace	MacKinnon GP	Draisaitl 82 Game Pace	Draisaitl GP
2016-17	100	82	94	74	53	82	77	82
2017-18	108	82	103	80	107	74	74	78
2018-19	122	78	128	82	99	82	105	82
2019-20*	125	64	103	68	111	69	127	71
2020-21	154	56/56	0	0	112	48/56	123	56/56
2021-22	127	80	121	47	111	65	113	80
2022-23	153	82	113	82	128	71	131	80
2023-24	143	76	146	81	140	82	107	81
2024-25	122	67	127	78	121	79	122	71

I think Howe benefited from easy competition there for a while but I think if his competition had come sooner then his peak would probably look more like McDavids. 1-2 seasons where he smashes the field and some seasons when the competition is at the same level but miss some time.

Guy Lafleur also benefited from being born/peaking at the right time. He won 3 scoring titles in a row but they all came in the period between Esposito and Gretzky. Lafleur got destroyed by Trottier while Lafleur was still in his peak in 78-79:

1978-79	GP	G	A	P	80 Game Pace
Trottier	76	47	87	134	141
Dionne	80	59	71	130	130
Lafleur	80	52	77	129	129
Bossy	80	69	57	126	126
MacMillan	79	37	71	108	110

I think McDavid have some of the hardest competition ever. It's rare to face a multiple art ross winner from another team. Crosby-Malkin, Jagr-Lemieux, Hull-Mikita, Orr-Esposito where all teammates. Howe obviously faced both Hull and Mikita but that was in his mid 30s.

 

[rmartin65]

I'll assume positive intent on the part of the OP here.

I agree with the general premise that Gordie Howe faced less competition from players within his 5 year cohort than McDavid has. I don't see how that can be refuted, really.

However, I do think this exercise isn't particularly reflective of the scoring competition each player faced. For starters, only looking at a 5-year period - 2 years on either side of a player's birth year - doesn't really give you the idea of the scoring environment. Howe's competition during the four year run you listed wasn't Olmstead, Raleigh, and Silan, it was Ted Lindsay, Maurice Richard, and Red Kelly. Who cares if they weren't in the same exact (very-narrowly defined) age bracket (and Kelly should even qualify by your standard as a 1927 birth).