Post-Game Talk: [GM54} Canucks defeat Sharks | 2-1 (OT) | Joshua & O’Connor | Don’t Ask How Many, Just How

[Zarpan]

Just saw Dhaliwal ripping the MP deal getting done so quick as an insult to Boeser.

Or maybe it's mgmt indicating that his ask is too much and he may not be a Canuck next year?

AFP Analytics has Boeser's contract projection at 7 years and $9 million per year.

I can see why a deal hasn't been done if the ask is around that or more.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Their breakouts look better but they have very little going offensively.

This should not happen against the Sharks:

View attachment 973983

We simply don't have enough talents on the team, and the few talents we have are playing like 3rd liners.

We have generated some offense since the JTM trade due to additional speed and excitement/enthusiasm, but that can only carry you so far. Eventually the true talent level shows and catches up. Hughes coming back will obviously help big time, but if your best forward is Chytil/Garland, your team is screwed (no offense to Chytil or Garland, they are good players, but they should be your 3rd-4th best forwards, at best). Until Petey/Brock/JDB shows up, this is the kind of offense we should be expecting.

 

[timw33]

The Pettersson thing is just insane at this point. And the problem is that the longer that it continues the worse a potential return will be. Great that we're able to grind out some wins with the injection of new players, but we are going nowhere fast without this situation being remedied one way or another.

 

[tantalum]

The thing with EP40 is that defensively his play is still strong. I do think there is a luck component to it of late. Last night was an exception but the last few weeks the offensive side of things has looked better. Heck the numbers from last night has that line at 75% scoring chance share....the issue is they were soooo low event (3 SCF and 1 SCA).

I still don't know what to think injury wise with Pettersson. The condition, if I can call it that, is one that can be frustrating. I have the same in my left knee. Sunday at hockey it hurt like hell. Out of nowhere. It has been fine for quite some time. Tuesday in the gym was almost unbearable. This morning in the gym it was like I never I had the issue. No pain at all. Not even small amounts of discomfort. It's truly bizarre.

The line that actually struggled the most last night was the Chytil line. Chytil had a rough game I thought. Not horrible but easily the worst of his first three.

All that said...the team does appear to slowly be turning the corner overall. Which is good. Playoffs are fully in their hands..which is a bit shocking to be honest given the injuries and locker room turmoil.

I want to see all the 4 Nations guys pull themselves from the tourney. Use the time to rest and heal.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think this is the most logical sentiment to have. I have zero feelings towards the strongest of doubters or the strongest of supporters. There’s genuinely no clear solutions. It’s just f***ed. I feel apathetic.

I also feel for him. Like he’s trying defensively but just looks so lost out there offensively. Genuinely nearing two calendar years now since he was last on top of his game.. the stretch run of 22-23.

This is how I feel as well. The whole situation is way too mysterious and odd for me to have any real take on it, personally (other than that it may be right to trade him just to get rid of the distraction of whatever is happening). If he's injured, what the hell are they doing with him, why wouldn't it be acknowledged, and why wouldn't he be rested for it, and if he's just a prima-donna who's stopped caring, why the hell is he still good defensively and the top forward shot-blocker on the team (that can't possibly be the lazy auto-pilot way to play, can it?), while the two obvious areas causing his struggles (footspeed and hesitance to shoot) are somewhat consistent with a knee-related injury? From my perspective, it seems like a pretty far cry from how Yashin looked when he obviously stopped caring and was just collecting a pay-check (or even how Pettersson himself looked when he had that clear mental block a few years ago).

 

[mdobbs]

I'm somewhat convinced that Toch's system is depressing Petey's numbers (along with the entire team). The Canucks are dead last in the NHL at 5v5 xGF%. That is a symptom of a coaching problem

That's not to say that he's not also struggling, but i wonder how much his production would change if he moved to a different team or we had a different coach

As of now, the Canucks entire game plan seems to revolve around setting up Quinn. Even when he's not in the lineup the gameplan is the same (get pucks to the point and collapse all the forwards in front of the net)

 

[Hodgy]

Petey can't skate. He's had a lower body issue objectively affecting his skating for a long time. That's not exactly conducive to the 3v3 game. I don't think it's that surprising.

To be fair, if it was "objectively" affecting his skating we wouldn't have dozens or hundreds of different posters arguing ad nauseum over this very issue.

I definitely agree that he does look slower, and this is consistent with the NHL edge data, but he also just doesn't move his feet enough or attack with the puck the way he did before. Everything about him looks off. He used to deke players while basically standing still and he never does that anymore either.

 

[bossram]

To be fair, if it was "objectively" affecting his skating we wouldn't have dozens or hundreds of different posters arguing ad nauseum over this very issue.

I definitely agree that he does look slower, and this is consistent with the NHL edge data, but he also just doesn't move his feet enough or attack with the puck the way he did before. Everything about him looks off. He used to deke players while basically standing still and he never does that anymore either.

Yes. His skating is objectively slower than the first half of last season or seasons prior, according to NHL Edge.

Look at him pivot or try to spin off a check. Or even when he tries to do a deke. He can't. His feet don't explode fast enough. We've certainly seen him deke guys out of their shorts in other seasons.

The alternative explanation to a physical ailment is that after 6 seasons of being a high-end offensive player, he just doesn't want to anymore. He wants to get checked when trying to beat guys. He wants to have weaker shots. I mean, alright. That's a take you can have I guess.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Pretty much clear ep is injured with most likely chronic debilitating knee tendinitis hopefully he heals up 100% in the offseason

 

[Hodgy]

Yes. His skating is objectively slower than the first half of last season or seasons prior, according to NHL Edge.

To be clear, the NHL Edge data is evidence of his slower skating (which everyone knows and no one is debating) rather than evidence of causation of his poor skating. Your comment was that he had "a lower body issue objectively affecting his skating". This isn't true. If it was, we wouldn't be having any of this debate. What we do know is that he had pattellar tendinitis last season and that he had to train around it in the summer. He said at training camp it was a nagging injury that wouldn't go away, but that he had no pain and that his knee was fine.

For what its worth, Dhaliwall just confirmed that no one thinks he has any knee injury now. This would accord with how management and coaching have treated the situation.

Look at him pivot or try to spin off a check. Or even when he tries to do a deke. He can't. His feet don't explode fast enough. We've certainly seen him deke guys out of their shorts in other seasons.

We have seen him deke guys out of their shorts in other seasons, but my point was he used to do that more or less standing still from time to time (i.e., speed would be less of an issue) but we don't even see that any more. I just don't see him even trying to beat players very often or attack with the puck. And maybe that's because his speed is down and so he doesn't (perhaps rightfully so) have the confidence to even try. Every once and while he tries to get a head of steam but usually easily gets choked out in the neutral zone.

The alternative explanation to a physical ailment is that after 6 seasons of being a high-end offensive player, he just doesn't want to anymore. He wants to get checked when trying to beat guys. He wants to have weaker shots. I mean, alright. That's a take you can have I guess.

That isn't the alternate take though. It would be like me describing your view as "all mid twenties players who display a drop in speed only do so as a result of injury". Like, that's an obviously stupid take. And isn't even consistent with the facts here since Pettersson's speed dropped 10% or so from 2022-23 to the first half of 23-24, before the knee injury was ever disclosed or mentioned. So, something was obviously going on.

I have posted this a couple of times, but will repost the following which could perhaps partly explain Pettersson's drop in performance:

Yes, that was my post. I was trying to provide rationale to how a player's performance/dynamism can drop for reasons other than injury. I don't think people realize just how much effort NHLers put in day in and day out not to mentioned elite NHLers. You hear about it all the time where someone describes how dialed in an elite NHL player is, and what kind of schedule/regime they have. Just recently a player shared Kucherov's routine and was marveling at how dialed in it was. Referencing how Kucherov would do like 10s or 100s of the same drill where the puck was shot around the boards in the offensive zone and Kucherov picked it up off the boards, without delay, in his usual spot.

And I think Pettersson was, and can be, that kind of player. And we saw this when he talked about (I think during his draft year) how he dissected his shot into numerous segments in order to improve upon it. But it is quite possible that as he became accustomed to success in the NHL he started to take his pedal off the gas and started to let slip some of this preparation and drive. And initially, as you mentioned, the results continue and so there is almost a positive feedback to that decision. But the reality is that the player is getting results because of his previous preparation and drive. And then, predictably at some point, but often quite a bit later, the results then start to drop off as well. And this is when the player really enters into a slump. Because they both look to be performing poorly, but also the results are just not there. And of course the player loses his confidence and that compounds the issue.

We then see the player starting working hard and putting in the effort to get out of the slump. And I think you see that with Pettersson to some extent. But the reality is you can't just turn a switch and get back to your peak performance, and it can take a very long time to do so. And we saw this with his last slump years ago where it took him months to get out of.

With all that said, I am not saying that he doesn't have an injury or anything. I am just trying to convey how players as good as Pettersson can drop in performance so much with it not being predominately driven by injury

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don’t think there is any indication that the team thinks there is even still an injury. Certainly Alvin’s public criticisms of Pettersson in the past, and the fact he hasn’t missed a game for this “injury” (and he has missed a game for a different injury) suggest they don’t think any injury is causing his poor play.

And it’s not just the team. Pettersson is one of the top paid players in hockey, and he can also get his own independent medical advice which isn’t uncommon where a player disagrees with management as to how to address an injury. And if he felt the injury was predominately causing his poor play - FOR A WHOLE YEAR - and that resting and not playing would fix this, then why the hell has he not insisted on sitting out? And why the hell would he play in the Four Nations.

Nothing adds up.

It does if you think an injury persists. It does not if you think he's not injured.

Allvin implying Pettersson is not injured is not a confirmation either way. Pettersson playing is not a confirmation either way.

Drance today: It's the same with his wrist injury in 2021-22. Everyone denied it, and then Pettersson disclosed it at the end.

Hughes is super competitive and wants to go and clearly the team doesn’t want to go. This doesn’t support your argument very well so dr your point with Pettersson seems to be that the Canucks are making him play or something.

I am not sure if this is just ambiguous drafting, but the NHL data is evidence of his poor play, not of the causation of that poor play. People seem to conflate this often.

It’s a lot more nuanced than that, I think. Because a “mental thing”, can lead to a lack of preparation and poor training for the season, which is Allvin’s criticism, which has physical consequences (lack of power and energy leading to slower spreads). And these consequences of not being mentally prepared enough, or being mentally driven to the extent required, are like slow moving ripples that grow in size, and are not easily or quickly remedied.

Basically no one is saying it’s just a “mental” block. And even those who believe more strongly that an injury was or is a large factor, believe also that confidence has become a major issue. I am not sure if there is anyone that just thinks this is an injury issue.

Ironically, pro injury posters, back in February and March of last year, ridiculed the idea that his poor play could be the result of mental issues, but now almost everyone agrees that’s part of it.

A lack of confidence is seldom described as a mental block or mental issue. These phrases have different connotations, especially now.

On the NHL Edge Data:
- He started playing poorly after the ASG, the data shows a distinct lack of speed from here onward. Correlation. Fine.
- Pettersson states he suffered a knee injury from that time onward. Still correlation? Ok sure.
- He comes back, says he trained around it, speed burst and top speed still impaired in the data. Continued, heavy correlation...

At some point, the likely cause of the primary concern has to be acknowledged. When it isn't, as in the case of our exchanges, it breaks down any further discussion. We can then say nuance has been eroded to the point of boiling each position down to a mental block vs. injury (primarily), as I have done.

Just like the NHL Edge data is a data point for the injury, so too will the 4 Nations be for a mental block. Let's see what we learn there.

 

[Curm]

I fell asleep early in the 2nd period, figured I'd finish it the morning when I woke up, fell asleep again in the morning midway through the 3rd. That pretty much sums up the game.

The stands looked like Rogers should have been many times during the Benning era.

Demko being sharp and Joshua scoring and looking much better were the two highlights.

Tocchet needs to understand he's not coaching in the dead puck era. Also, needs to get EP40 back with Hoglander and Karlsson, nothing else seems to be working for him. I have all the time in the world for Hoglander in the bottom 6 right now, you can question his hockey sense and DZ play, but you can't question his effort and scrappy play.

EP40 got 6:21 against the 24th ranked PK and couldn't manage a shot, didn't at ES either. They're going nowhere if that doesn't change.

I watch EP40 and Boeser and can't imagine having $20 million combined in cap tied up with the two of them.

 

[beachcomber]

Never ending drama with this guy, trade him. Canucks will be a quick out if they make the playoffs and you know Petey won't be showing up for them. Rip the band aid off and move on.

 

[Diversification]

Basically no one is saying it’s just a “mental” block. And even those who believe more strongly that an injury was or is a large factor, believe also that confidence has become a major issue. I am not sure if there is anyone that just thinks this is an injury issue.

Ironically, pro injury posters, back in February and March of last year, ridiculed the idea that his poor play could be the result of mental issues, but now almost everyone agrees that’s part of it.

I would guess that there were more than a few of us that thought early on that there was a potential ‘mental’ cause for the decline in play. But libel is a real thing so let’s all be careful about how this discussion proceeds.

 

[Hodgy]

It does if you think an injury persists. It does not if you think he's not injured.

Allvin implying Pettersson is not injured is not a confirmation either way. Pettersson playing is not a confirmation either way.

It doesn't make sense to think of this stuff in binary terms - i.e., confirmation, being absolute either way. These things are just evidence either way that needs to be weighed in their totality.

So while Allvin implying Pettersson isn't injured isn't a confirmation, it is evidence that he isn't injured. And Pettersson not sitting out to rest or heal his body all the while playing like a whole year producing at like half of his normal is evidence that there isn't an injury, or perhaps, its a very insignificant injury, or the injury will not heal with rest.

Drance today: It's the same with his wrist injury in 2021-22. Everyone denied it, and then Pettersson disclosed it at the end.

I do get that. Players and teams don't disclose player injuries for pretty obvious reasons especially if the injury could lead to the player being targeted. A knee injury, like this, couldn't be targeted though. And let's just say the team was intentionally not disclosing it, then why is Allvin making the comments he made about Pettersson? I suppose he could have an injury and also issues with his preparation/drive/etc.

A lack of confidence is seldom described as a mental block or mental issue. These phrases have different connotations, especially now.

You used the term "mental thing" in order to create the following dichotomy: one side thinking it's a mental thing and another thinking it's injury. I said it was more nuanced than that. If you want to have a narrow definition of "mental thing" then you are just creating a strawman anyway since no one actually thinks it one or the other in those terms, not to mention the fact that many think it might be a bit of both.

On the NHL Edge Data:
- He started playing poorly after the ASG, the data shows a distinct lack of speed from here onward. Correlation. Fine.

Many believe he actually began to play poorly before that, but the results didn't start to catch up with him until around the ASG. And you are right, his skating speeds drop around that point by a considerable amount, but as I noted before, his skating speeds also dropped by around 10% from the previous year to the first half of last season.

- Pettersson states he suffered a knee injury from that time onward. Still correlation? Ok sure.

And there might be causation too. I've never emphatically denied that possibility. You may recall it has been my view that on a balance of probabilities the injury was not predominately responsible for his bad play. So if you are trying to prove me wrong, or whatever, that's your standard.

But its also interesting that his skating actually dropped off, by 10%, before Pettersson said he suffered hte injury...so what gives?

- He comes back, says he trained around it, speed burst and top speed still impaired in the data. Continued, heavy correlation...

I mean, you are leaving out important parts of his quote, which was that he also said his knee was fine and that he had no pain. It is very unclear whether he has any current injury right now, and much evidence points to him not having any injury, or if he does, its a minor injury.

At some point, the likely cause of the primary concern has to be acknowledged. When it isn't, as in the case of our exchanges, it breaks down any further discussion. We can then say nuance has been eroded to the point of boiling each position down to a mental block vs. injury (primarily), as I have done.

Again, I think you are oversimplifying things.

Just like the NHL Edge data is a data point for the injury, so too will the 4 Nations be for a mental block. Let's see what we learn there.

I don't think the 4 Nations are much of a data point for anything. If he plays great and looks fast then obviously the injury stuff was nonsense. If he continues to play poorly and look slow then it won't mean anything to those that think a significant part of his struggles is a result of a lack of mental/physical preparation, and/or confidence.

 

[kanucks25]

Just saw Dhaliwal ripping the MP deal getting done so quick as an insult to Boeser.

Or maybe it's mgmt indicating that his ask is too much and he may not be a Canuck next year?

Dhali knows who butters his bread and it's NHL agents.

It's a smart business decision for him to be pro player.

 

[LuckyDay]

Thank you refs...

I get what you are saying but running our players all night was the Sharks gameplan and it almost worked. I just hope Garland is not going to suffer anything lasting after that.

 

[LuckyDay]

Dhali knows who butters his bread and it's NHL agents.

It's a smart business decision for him to be pro player.

Gallagher is/was pro player and as such he got a lot insider information the team didn't give the media. This is why Quinn and Burke hated him and disparaged any media that wasn't pro-Team. Where before Griffiths and Neal recognized it as a game to go back and forth with and why Gallagher became more bitter as he was getting denied access and attacked outright by management and the Griffiths media machine.

 

[LuckyDay]

We won. we were not lucky ... we were the better team. Live with it, walk away. We move into a tenuous playoff spot. we will see how it goes.

We were absolutely the better team. We should have been the much better team but the Sharks tried very, very hard and got good goaltending and a point. Perhaps they were still embarrassed by the 10-1 loss last year.

 

[Bleach Clean]

It doesn't make sense to think of this stuff in binary terms - i.e., confirmation, being absolute either way. These things are just evidence either way that needs to be weighed in their totality.

So while Allvin implying Pettersson isn't injured isn't a confirmation, it is evidence that he isn't injured. And Pettersson not sitting out to rest or heal his body all the while playing like a whole year producing at like half of his normal is evidence that there isn't an injury, or perhaps, its a very insignificant injury, or the injury will not heal with rest.

I do get that. Players and teams don't disclose player injuries for pretty obvious reasons especially if the injury could lead to the player being targeted. A knee injury, like this, couldn't be targeted though. And let's just say the team was intentionally not disclosing it, then why is Allvin making the comments he made about Pettersson? I suppose he could have an injury and also issues with his preparation/drive/etc.

You used the term "mental thing" in order to create the following dichotomy: one side thinking it's a mental thing and another thinking it's injury. I said it was more nuanced than that. If you want to have a narrow definition of "mental thing" then you are just creating a strawman anyway since no one actually thinks it one or the other in those terms, not to mention the fact that many think it might be a bit of both.

Many believe he actually began to play poorly before that, but the results didn't start to catch up with him until around the ASG. And you are right, his skating speeds drop around that point by a considerable amount, but as I noted before, his skating speeds also dropped by around 10% from the previous year to the first half of last season.

And there might be causation too. I've never emphatically denied that possibility. You may recall it has been my view that on a balance of probabilities the injury was not predominately responsible for his bad play. So if you are trying to prove me wrong, or whatever, that's your standard.

But its also interesting that his skating actually dropped off, by 10%, before Pettersson said he suffered hte injury...so what gives?

I mean, you are leaving out important parts of his quote, which was that he also said his knee was fine and that he had no pain. It is very unclear whether he has any current injury right now, and much evidence points to him not having any injury, or if he does, its a minor injury.

Again, I think you are oversimplifying things.

I don't think the 4 Nations are much of a data point for anything. If he plays great and looks fast then obviously the injury stuff was nonsense. If he continues to play poorly and look slow then it won't mean anything to those that think a significant part of his struggles is a result of a lack of mental/physical preparation, and/or confidence.

4 Nations not a data point for anything... Next sentence: If he plays great, then the injury stuff is nonsense. Lol

If he excels at the 4 Nations, the argument for a mental block is strengthened. Conversely, the argument for an injury is weakened.

The speed data points to a lingering injury. The 10% reduction pre ASG could be variance, depending upon speed data pre 2021-22. As is, it's 2.5 years at 5.1+ MPH/60 and 1 year at 3.7 MPH/60.

Pettersson confirmed the presence of his knee injury when returning to camp, and the speed data corroborates that admission, despite his "I'm fine".

He had 14 goals in January 2023-24 BTW (re: his play slipping).

For you to think it's a mix of both injury and mental block, you have to acknowledge he is injured enough so as to affect his play, which you are unwilling to do. Therefore, your position is clearer than you otherwise purport it to be.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Quad, meet Oblique.

Aw crap...

High chance he misses 4 nations with this.

 

[archangel2]

wonder when the canucks will put all 3 pettersson's on the ice at the same time just to screw with announcers

 

[Hodgy]

4 Nations not a data point for anything... Next sentence: If he plays great, then the injury stuff is nonsense. Lol

I said I didn’t think it was “much of a data point for anything” and explained why. You then strawman’d my statement as being an absolute.

If he excels at the 4 Nations, the argument for a mental block is strengthened. Conversely, the argument for an injury is weakened.

It depends on how you are defining “mental block” because I don’t think anyone is defining it any way in which it could disappear basically immediately. Posters all seem to agree this slump wil take Petey a long time to play out of. The fact that Petey still looks like garbage several games after Miller was traded should put a rest to that thought.

And for this reason, if he continues to play poorly at the Four Nations it won’t be evidence that the slump isn’t partly or mostly a result of mental issues. That’s just bad logic. And why I didn’t think it was much of a data point.

The speed data points to a lingering injury. The 10% reduction pre ASG could be variance, depending upon speed data pre 2021-22. As is, it's 2.5 years at 5.1+ MPH/60 and 1 year at 3.7 MPH/60.

If there was no further decline after the 10%, or if his speed went back up, then I’d be more inclined to agree it’s just variance. But as it stands, it looks more like the beginning of a trend.

Pettersson confirmed the presence of his knee injury when returning to camp, and the speed data corroborates that admission, despite his "I'm fine".

His training remarks are unclear in terms of whether he currently had the injury. He talked about how it was a nagging injury that wouldn’t go away, which suggested he may still have it, but then he said he had no pain and his knee was fine, which suggested that it had gone away and that the nagging remarks were in the past tense.

He had 14 goals in January 2023-24 BTW (re: his play slipping).

Yes, I know. Again, the results were there, but many thought his play was skipping. This is commonly the case with a player entering a slump.

For you to think it's a mix of both injury and mental block, you have to acknowledge he is injured enough so as to affect his play, which you are unwilling to do. Therefore, your position is clearer than you otherwise purport it to be.

Actually, this is just a strawman of my position. I enjoy debating the merits of the evidence, and some posters seem to take this as an implication or evidence that I feel really strongly for one conclusion one way or the other. But I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t know what the cause of Petey’s poor play is, but that on a balance of probabilities (I.e., 51% plus probability) I don’t think an injury is predominately the cause. So even on the 51% side, I am acknowledging an injury could be a minor or non predominant cause. And I’ve even acknowledged there is a 49% chance or less that an injury is actually the predominant cause.

It seems to me that because you have a lot of conviction and certainty in your position (which I find unwarranted) that you project this on me.

 

[andora]

What's "a long time"? Because it's been 11 months since he committed here for 8 years.

Because it isnt a blanket expectation like that anymore. As this has become a business just signing that contract doesnt automatically say he wants to be in vancouver long term

He secured a high contract with trade protection for himself - it doesnt mean its automatic he wants to be van for life

 

[kanucks25]

Because it isnt a blanket expectation like that anymore. As this has become a business just signing that contract doesnt automatically say he wants to be in vancouver long term

He secured a high contract with trade protection for himself - it doesnt mean its automatic he wants to be van for life

He signed an 8 year contract 11 months ago.

Why would you sign an 8 year contract to be in Vancouver when you're strongly considering not wanting to be in Vancouver?

He could have easily pulled a Tkachuk instead.

Unless you're implying he wanted to secure the bag ASAP because he was afraid of his own fall off (which was already well underway when he signed).