Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[AchtzehnBaby]

You defend better than he did

No. Not just a poor loser.

 

[Sweatred]

Again, the alternative of nobody was preferable. Alternatively, sign an AHL dman that can get called up instead of a fringe NHL dman that will get sent down.

This is of course assuming MDZ was the best option of the slim pickings, we could have gone the Arizona route of getting paid to take Gostibehere. We could have stepped up and paid the price to trade for guys like Bean, Bear, Zadorov, or Graves. Instead, we decided the price to trade for those guys was too high, so moved on, and the price to sign MDZ was not so he's here now.

You just listed a bunch of players that chose where they signed. For all we know we offered guys like Zadarov more money than what they took in the markets they signed.

 

[Micklebot]

You just listed a bunch of players that chose where they signed. For all we know we offered guys like Zadarov more money than what they took in the markets they signed.

Bear, Graves and Gost were under contract, Zadorov and Bean were RFA, none of them chose where they signed,

 

[Sweatred]

Bear, Graves and Gost were under contract, Zadorov and Bean were RFA, none of them chose where they signed,

Did you expect the Sens to offer sheet Z ? Or offer more for one year of Z?

 

[Micklebot]

Did you expect the Sens to offer sheet Z ? Or offer more for one year of Z?

The post I made suggested trading for those player's rights was an alternative. The idea that it was MDZ or nothing because of slim pickings (nothing was preferably but that's not the point) is disingenuous, we could have soughtt a player on the trade market.

We decided the price to trade and sign, as applicable, for those guys was too high, and dumpster dove for MDZ.

It's pretty clear right now signing MDZ was a mistake. Those were just illustrations that other ways to add NHL caliber depth existed, but as I said, I'd likely have gone with signing and AHL tweener on a 2way contract or picking someone up off waivers over MDZ, the signing didn't make much sense to begin with.

 

[Sweatred]

The post I made suggested trading for those player's rights was an alternative. The idea that it was MDZ or nothing because of slim pickings (nothing was preferably but that's not the point) is disingenuous, we could have soughtt a player on the trade market.

We decided the price to trade and sign, as applicable, for those guys was too high, and dumpster dove for MDZ.

It's pretty clear right now signing MDZ was a mistake. Those were just illustrations that other ways to add NHL caliber depth existed, but as I said, I'd likely have gone with signing and AHL tweener on a 2way contract or picking someone up off waivers over MDZ, the signing didn't make much sense to begin with.

Okay… I agree MDZ was a mistake .. I like Zadarov but it’s difficult for me to decide if I’d give a 2-3RD+ pick for one year … I think it was a great move for Calgary.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Unfortunately, it seems like one side of this debate seems to be more often confused than the other. Were raw attendance numbers good? Sure. We might never know how many promotions, giveaways and whatever ticket incentives there used to be but the number used to be pretty good. But what does that mean? What context does it provide in a league where all teams participate under the same cap structure? 16,000 fans spending $45 per person is worth less than 16,000 fans spending $70 per person. Like any business on earth, especially a live entertainment business, the average revenue per customer is more important than the number of customers. A concert with 20,000 people who spent $25 to get in and maybe spent another $25 inside is not as good as another concert with 15,000 people who spent $100 to get in and maybe another $25 inside.

Sure, if we only look at how many bodies walked through the turnstiles, the count was pretty good. In 2016-17, attendance figures show almost 17,000 per game. Not bad! Except, we finished 19th in gate revenue at $46M while we had 9 playoff games where you would expect approximately $1.5M-$2M per game in revenue. Without the playoffs that year, this team's gate revenue is around $28M-$32.5M. Suddenly, 16,000-17,000 fans per game doesn't sound so great, does it? This team has been close to or in the bottom 5 in gate revenues since 2015-16, excluding 2016-17's miraculous run. Even our best years ever for gate revenue put us middle of the pack. Read that again. Best ever equals middle of the pack. Without lengthy playoff runs this team might never have the type of gate revenues you wanna brag about ever again.

This whole discussion is so absurd. The same fans who hold the team solely accountable for everything wrong with the Senators today are the same ones who'll say the arena is too far and the Phoenix pay system and no one wants to watch a losing team and the team doesn't market well enough and the corporate sponsor dollar pool is the smallest in the league and tickets to our most important rivalry games against Toronto and Montreal are too expensive and inflation and cost of living increases and we're trapped between 2 behemoth markets and our arena is old and the parking lot sucks to get out of and there's nothing to do around the arena and on and on. Most, if not all, of those are very valid reasons. But some things were in the current owner's control and many were not.

So much of the fanbase has developed a symbiotic relationship with these convenient excuses to tell themselves they don't want to go. Winning will bring many back, as if it's hard to cheer for a winning team. A centrally located arena might put more butts in seats - depending on ticket prices. New ownership might spur some to come back and for relations with the community at large to be brought back to standard dealing. It won't change the fact that what the fans expect and what reality can offer don't intersect or overlap whatsoever. We've been somewhat saved by the grace of amazing TV deal money and the fact that we get a nice healthy cut of the league's revenue sharing. But teams that need handouts shouldn't have fans with grandiose expectations of competitiveness and even above-average budgets. We're just a small market team and it's ok to own that. If teams with 10 times our resources can't guarantee success most years, what makes us so special?

^ Long post - might want to make them more succinct so people read them.

I only talked about past attendance with the hope that the Senators can back to those attendance numbers. If the job of the fans is to attend games, they were doing that. No organization will get more fans than the amount of seats available in the arena. So, if fans are filling the barn, or average game attendance is near capacity, that's a good thing. The organization has to figure out how to capitalize on that. Again, I only talked about past attendance with the hope that the Senators can back to those attendance numbers. Seems like in the past they were able to do that which seems to be conveniently forgotten by some.

P.S. - I only used the "confused" concept to be polite. Better than using less than flattering terms.

 

[Sweatred]

^ Long post - might want to make them more succinct so people read them.

I only talked about past attendance with the hope that the Senators can back to those attendance numbers. No organization will get more fans than the amount of seats available in the arena. So, if fans are filling the barn, or average game attendance is near capacity, that's a good thing. The organization has to figure out how to capitalize on that. Again, I only talked about past attendance with the hope that the Senators can back to those attendance numbers. Seems like in the past they were able to do that which seems to be conveniently forgotten by some.

P.S. - I only used the "confused" concept to be polite. Better than using less than flattering terms.

Na … good hockey markets support their team … bad markets support it when conditions are ideal.

Ottawa is apathetic - sub 2000 at 67’s playoff game … worst attendance in the NHL..

We probably have some of the cheapest tickets and best traffic in the league. People just don’t want to put in the effort.

I doubt we never find this team beyond cap floor / league handout.

Everybody wants a new GM … same people who don’t buy tickets and don’t realize that no one wants to be a GM of a team with the worst fan revenue in the league using league handouts to meet the floor. Even worse players don’t want to play in empty
Buildings, pay our taxes or deal with our cold,
Boring city.

Any good potential GM would rather hold lesser roles in good hockey markets and wait out an Ottawa offer.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

No. Not just a poor loser.

More than a poor loser then.. ok. Good to know

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Na … good hockey markets support their team … bad markets support it when conditions are ideal.

Ottawa is apathetic - sub 2000 at 67’s playoff game … worst attendance in the NHL..

We probably have some of the cheapest tickets and best traffic in the league. People just don’t want to put in the effort.

I doubt we never find this team beyond cap floor / league handout.

Everybody wants a new GM … same people who don’t buy tickets and don’t realize that no one wants to be a GM of a team with the worst fan revenue in the league using league handouts to meet the floor. Even worse players don’t want to play in empty
Buildings, pay our taxes or deal with our cold,
Boring city.

Any good potential GM would rather hold lesser roles in good hockey markets and wait out an Ottawa offer.

More useless conclusions drawn from a 5 year period of toxic ownership, or comparisons to non NHL or fringe pro sports teams, or 20 year old bankruptcies from owners not truly wealthy in the context of owning sports teams. You can count on one hand the amount of ownership situations that have been as toxic as Melnyk in the NHL. There is no precedent for it and it adds a caveat to every number attempted to be used as anything useful.

We're all aware of the numbers the last 5 seasons, and you're not changing anyone's mind on why with ridiculous obviously perturbed replies like this to what was a reasonable comment. They said fans need to get the attendance numbers up to the type they used to be, which you actually agree with and tell us needs to happen. We are willing to take your bet that the last 5 years are an outlier. Lets see what happens. We just need some owners with some integrity as a start and go from there.

Then we'll get the new GM if this summer is a flop, new arena, bigger budgets, and bam, we'll all be happy again. There has never been a better time to be a Senators fan other than maybe the joy from a couple of almost cup runs.

 

[GCK]

we need new both

much more experience

The players love DJ. They never have back to back bad games. We need a GM that gives him a reasonable roster.

 

[GCK]

I know you're saying this in jest, but if Stone ends up LTIRetiring and Vegas gets out of paying Stone 9.5M until he's 35, that's a win for them even if he's still a really good player right now.

As is the case with most massive UFA deals, first 2-3 years it's usually worth it, but the player rarely ends up living up to the second half of the contract. Feel like that's going to be the case with Stone given his injury issues, and it's not like he can afford to lose a step with his skating being what it is.

Trading what amounts to a young bottom pairing D and a potential 2nd/3rd line forward to get a PPG Selke-quality winger for 4 years is a massive win for Vegas.

I love Stone but I think the legend has become greater than the man. He’s not a PPG winger and is a tier below Selke calibre. He has played 175 reg season games and 46 playoff games for Vegas while collecting just under 34M.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

He’s not a PPG winger and is a tier below Selke calibre.

He was literally a finalist last season.

 

[GCK]

Na … good hockey markets support their team … bad markets support it when conditions are ideal.

Ottawa is apathetic - sub 2000 at 67’s playoff game … worst attendance in the NHL..

We probably have some of the cheapest tickets and best traffic in the league. People just don’t want to put in the effort.

I doubt we never find this team beyond cap floor / league handout.

Everybody wants a new GM … same people who don’t buy tickets and don’t realize that no one wants to be a GM of a team with the worst fan revenue in the league using league handouts to meet the floor. Even worse players don’t want to play in empty
Buildings, pay our taxes or deal with our cold,
Boring city.

Any good potential GM would rather hold lesser roles in good hockey markets and wait out an Ottawa offer.

Please select another team to support so you can go fill their boards with your concern about their owners financial situation.

He was literally a finalist last season.

Fair enough.

 

[Ouroboros]

Bear, Graves and Gost were under contract, Zadorov and Bean were RFA, none of them chose where they signed,

For what it's worth, the Senators were hard after Graves and were pretty certain they had landed him. Then the news broke that he'd been traded to New Jersey.

 

[Ice-Tray]

At some point pace becomes irrelevant, and durability becomes an important skill.

Hopefully Stone can figure something out. We know as well anyone how back injuries can negatively impact a players career.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I love Stone but I think the legend has become greater than the man. He’s not a PPG winger and is a tier below Selke calibre. He has played 175 reg season games and 46 playoff games for Vegas while collecting just under 34M.

Wasn't he kind of quiet on our run too? Getting hazy, but I feel like I remember thinking Hoffman was making a bigger difference and obviously Bobby was huge.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Have you looked at how much you save by getting rid of MDZ or Z ?

If you trade them you save 6.5

 

[Sweatred]

If you trade them you save 6.5

I’d hate to see what you gave away to get anyone to take those contracts.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I’d hate to see what you gave away to get anyone to take those contracts.

Mdz only one year left. Some team will rake him

 

[Micklebot]

Mdz only one year left. Some team will rake him

Belleville?

 

[Sweatred]

Mdz only one year left. Some team will rake him

Didn’t he just go through Waivers untouched again?

 

[Tuna99]

Do the fans of the Senators think Pierre Dorion would make a move to acquire Mark Scheifele from the Winnipeg Jets if he is available? If so what would you offer? I selected your team because Scheifele is from Ontario, the Senators have a lot of young talent, and Geoff Sanderson was one of my favorite players and the Senators have his son Jake.

So I ask, what would you offer on behalf of the Senators for Scheifele?

No offence but Schieffle seems like an ass. We get lots of Habs news here and after last years playoffs and his post season comments he seems like an air-head with mega arrogance. Don’t think the fans would be to happy with that deal and we have 4 great Centers already so - no

Mdz only one year left. Some team will rake him

Every team in the NHL rakes that guy over night in and night out

 

[GCK]

Wasn't he kind of quiet on our run too? Getting hazy, but I feel like I remember thinking Hoffman was making a bigger difference and obviously Bobby was huge.

Stone was banged up during the 2017 run.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Didn’t he just go through Waivers untouched again?

How many times do players go through waivers to be traded for shortly after

Stone was banged up during the 2017 run.

Every player is banged up during every playoff run.