Post-Game Talk: GM 53 | Canucks def. Avs 3-0 (DeBrusk, Boeser, O’Connor) | WE ARE SO F***ING BACK

[docbenton]

No.

We are discussing what is causing his poor play instead if whining and bitching.

Limited talent. Even when he scored 100 points I was never impressed with his process. Yes his skating is clearly worse this year, and maybe that's due to injury or injury limiting off-season training, but that is not the only reason he can't contribute. There are great players who are worse skaters.

I would also say that he did have one great game this year when people were shouting "Selke", that game he wasn't just good defensively but he was also among the most dangerous and dynamic I'd seen him as a Canuck any year. Some of his 5 point games in the past honestly he did barely anything of substance. So he has it in him to be good, and at least some of it is psychological. But great? I've never seen the elite qualities to suggest he can be a top notch center in the NHL without a lot of unforeseen growth. And no, he has never ever been that in the past.

I honestly don't think he's been THAT much worse this year, but it's like all the random luck he had before suddenly dried up, and people are finally taking notice. If he had 20 pucks bounce in off of skates in his favor probably no one would even be complaining. Last year to start the year when he was leading the league in scoring I thought he was pretty terrible then.

 

[nowhereman]

No.

We are discussing what is causing his poor play instead if whining and bitching.

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

What does that mean?

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

I Dont understand what is left that is causing his issues?

He is choosing to not show up and needs to make the choise to show up?

Limited talent. Even when he scored 100 points I was never impressed with his process. Yes his skating is clearly worse this year, and maybe that's due to injury or injury limiting off-season training, but that is not the only reason he can't contribute. There are great players who are worse skaters.

I would also say that he did have one great game this year when people were shouting "Selke", that game he wasn't just good defensively but he was also among the most dangerous and dynamic I'd seen him as a Canuck any year. Some of his 5 point games in the past honestly he did barely anything of substance. So he has it in him to be good, and at least some of it is psychological. But great? I've never seen the elite qualities to suggest he can be a top notch center in the NHL without a lot of unforeseen growth. And no, he has never ever been that in the past.

I honestly don't think he's been THAT much worse this year, but it's like all the random luck he had before suddenly dried up, and people are finally taking notice. If he had 20 pucks bounce in off of skates in his favor probably no one would even be complaining. Last year to start the year when he was leading the league in scoring I thought he was pretty terrible then.

Meh.

Not interested.

 

[LuckyDay]

Man, there was just no quit in these Canucks and you could see the Avs getting visibility frustrated.
"Almost like a playoff game"
We've played this way a few times this month - almost carbon copying the Hurricanes the way they played us - and pulled it off.
The addition of the new players was quite visible and really helps this style of play. This is the kind of game you want if you want to go far.

As it was, it was goaltender's duel though the score doesn't reflect it. One goal tilted the ice and we goaded the Avs into penalties when McKimmon and Makar weren't able to finish anything. Blackwood was the one keeping them in the game. We did get our chances in the 5-3 but Blackwood. The Avs were the cup winners in 2022 for a reason.

This Canucks team is like trying to figure out where the particle is in Quantum physics. If you think they are going to win they lose because you think they are going to win. If you know they are going to lose they win because you think that. If you think they are going to lose because you know they think they are going to win they know what you are thinking so they win.
It's mind boggling.
It's Schrödinger's Canucks.

 

[Hodgy]

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

I said it in the Pettersson thread, but at a certain point, the why doesn't really matter. In some ways, I think it would actually be the best if the reason Pettersson has played so poorly was because he did let the foot off the gas after signing his big contract, and didn't prepare enough physically and mentally, because this actually allows for Pettersson to regain form once he re-commits himself. And I do still think Pettersson can re-commit himself as Pettersson is an uber competitive person with a drive to win, as we saw this after he was drafted for many years. So I don't think this has vanished.

If his poor play is all or mostly the result of an injury, which is usually described as "nagging" or insignificant (and in fact Pettersson has described it as nagging in the past) then I am almost more concerned as NHL players routinely have nagging injuries that they must play through. And if Pettersson is going to be like half as effective whenever he is dealing with a nagging injury then I have some major concerns in terms of his performance over the balance of his contract.

 

[MS]

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

Yeah, it now just seems to be spinning the wheel to see what excuse we land on now. But the problem is that he's looked terrible basically no matter who he's been playing with for a year now.

And yeah, maybe he has a minor knee issue. But that doesn't matter in the context of a performance this bad. There is a base level expectation that star players in this league can suck it up and play through injury and perform. Hughes has been doing it for the past month. Miller has done it. Boeser was scoring hat tricks in last year's playoffs with a broken hand. McDavid, Crosby, Stone, Kucherov, Matthews ... basically every star player you can name has had some sort of injury issue at some point over the last few years, most more serious than anything Pettersson has. And they suck it up, and they perform. Maybe not at 100% of their regular level, but at 80% or 90%. If you can't do that and you turn into a pumpkin because you have a minor knee issue, you're soft as f***.

And then you toss the 'preparation' stuff from Allvin and the credible reports he came into camp in lousy shape into the mix and yeah ... this is on Pettersson.

 

[ephmrl]

Yeah, it now just seems to be spinning the wheel to see what excuse we land on now. But the problem is that he's looked terrible basically no matter who he's been playing with for a year now.

And yeah, maybe he has a minor knee issue. But that doesn't matter in the context of a performance this bad. There is a base level expectation that star players in this league can suck it up and play through injury and perform. Hughes has been doing it for the past month. Miller has done it. Boeser was scoring hat tricks in last year's playoffs with a broken hand. McDavid, Crosby, Stone, Kucherov, Matthews ... basically every star player you can name has had some sort of injury issue at some point over the last few years, most more serious than anything Pettersson has. And they suck it up, and they perform. Maybe not at 100% of their regular level, but at 80% or 90%. If you can't do that and you turn into a pumpkin because you have a minor knee issue, you're soft as f***.

And then you toss the 'preparation' stuff from Allvin and the credible reports he came into camp in lousy shape into the mix and yeah ... this is on Pettersson.

It's such a strange situation to try to understand, never seen anything like it in the sport before. It would be easy to say that he's checked out or doesn't care about hockey, but his defensive fundamentals are still there and he's laying the body on the forecheck, which is something he's never done before.

Somehow he's lost his skating ability, consistency in his shot, and stick handling inexplicably. There's times when he messes up on simply just controlling the puck on the powerplay with no pressure, thats crazy for a player with his pedigree. He routinely flubs simple passes, but then he'll nail a beautiful pass that basically no one else in the league would be able to pull off, like the one he floated in for Boeser against Detroit.

Seems like its a combination of mental + physical injury, but as you said, many superstar players have had to battle through serious injuries and still made themselves a factor in games and were able to reach a baseline of effectiveness.

 

[Diversification]

It's like a weight has been lifted off their shoulders. Miller was addition by subtraction.

LOL. He's Zibanejad's problem now...

 

[MS]

It's such a strange situation to try to understand, never seen anything like it in the sport before. It would be easy to say that he's checked out or doesn't care about hockey, but his defensive fundamentals are still there and he's laying the body on the forecheck, which is something he's never done before.

Somehow he's lost his skating ability, consistency in his shot, and stick handling inexplicably. There's times when he messes up on simply just controlling the puck on the powerplay with no pressure, thats crazy for a player with his pedigree. He routinely flubs simple passes, but then he'll nail a beautiful pass that basically no one else in the league would be able to pull off, like the one he floated in for Boeser against Detroit.

Seems like its a combination of mental + physical injury, but as you said, many superstar players have had to battle through serious injuries and still made themselves a factor in games and were able to reach a baseline of effectiveness.

I've talked a few times about the interview PL Dubois gave in the summer about what went wrong in LA and my speculation would be that that is about as close as you'll see to the issues Pettersson is having.

Take it as you like, but I've always needed clear instructions to do my job 100%.
...
I'm mixed when there are grey areas. I've been working on it since I was young. And from my first conversations with the team, I didn't really know what was expected of me. I didn't know where I was. You can't play well when you're asking yourself too many questions.
...
Maybe it was me who was too demanding to want to be explained the way forward. It's obviously my fault it didn't work.
...
I tried to take up the challenge but I stayed in a grey area all year. I didn't feel at home. The players tried to help me and I wanted it to unlock, but it just didn't work.
...
Professionally, it was the worst scenario. You want to please your team, the people around you.

They maybe aren't exactly the same people - Dubois seems to be a guy who struggles if his role and responsibilities aren't clearly defined for him, and Petterson I think is a really highly-strung guy who functions great when things are perfect but gets lost in his head when his circumstances (contract, minor injury, etc) aren't ideal - but the way Dubois describes being lost and not being able to 'unlock' is probably very similar to what Pettersson is going through.

Someone (@Hodgy maybe?) also mentioned how these things go in stages and the further and longer it goes, the harder it is to get out of it. 22-23 Pettersson was dialed in. Pettersson in the first half of 23-24 was still producing, but a lot of us were commenting at the time how it was a lot of complimentary points and he wasn't driving offense in the same way or looking as engaged as the year prior. Then the wheels fell off in the second half. And now they've stayed off this year. And he's gotten himself down a really deep hole at this point.

 

[Curm]

The two skirmishes in the 3rd period were a great sign.

First, just under seven minutes into the period, O'Connor from the Avs took out Garland and EP25 went right after him and when O'Connor and Woods took exception to that, Soucy and DeBrusk immediately waded in while EP25 stood in there and held his ground.

Then, with seven and a half minutes to go, after Woods took the penalty on Hoglander and speared Karlsson, Hoglander made a b-line straight to Woods and gave him a whack, and when Coulton came in and ripped Hogs lid off, he was greeted with a punch to the face by Hogs before Myers jumped in and tossed him around a bit. Meanwhile, you had EP25 getting a good hold on Toews after Myers had swatted him away.

I LOVE that stuff.

 

[Hodgy]

I've talked a few times about the interview PL Dubois gave in the summer about what went wrong in LA and my speculation would be that that is about as close as you'll see to the issues Pettersson is having.



They maybe aren't exactly the same people - Dubois seems to be a guy who struggles if his role and responsibilities aren't clearly defined for him, and Petterson I think is a really highly-strung guy who functions great when things are perfect but gets lost in his head when his circumstances (contract, minor injury, etc) aren't ideal - but the way Dubois describes being lost and not being able to 'unlock' is probably very similar to what Pettersson is going through.

Someone (@Hodgy maybe?) also mentioned how these things go in stages and the further and longer it goes, the harder it is to get out of it. 22-23 Pettersson was dialed in. Pettersson in the first half of 23-24 was still producing, but a lot of us were commenting at the time how it was a lot of complimentary points and he wasn't driving offense in the same way or looking as engaged as the year prior. Then the wheels fell off in the second half. And now they've stayed off this year. And he's gotten himself down a really deep hole at this point.

Yes, that was my post. I was trying to provide rationale to how a player's performance/dynamism can drop for reasons other than injury. I don't think people realize just how much effort NHLers put in day in and day out not to mentioned elite NHLers. You hear about it all the time where someone describes how dialed in an elite NHL player is, and what kind of schedule/regime they have. Just recently a player shared Kucherov's routine and was marveling at how dialed in it was. Referencing how Kucherov would do like 10s or 100s of the same drill where the puck was shot around the boards in the offensive zone and Kucherov picked it up off the boards, without delay, in his usual spot.

And I think Pettersson was, and can be, that kind of player. And we saw this when he talked about (I think during his draft year) how he dissected his shot into numerous segments in order to improve upon it. But it is quite possible that as he became accustomed to success in the NHL he started to take his pedal off the gas and started to let slip some of this preparation and drive. And initially, as you mentioned, the results continue and so there is almost a positive feedback to that decision. But the reality is that the player is getting results because of his previous preparation and drive. And then, predictably at some point, but often quite a bit later, the results then start to drop off as well. And this is when the player really enters into a slump. Because they both look to be performing poorly, but also the results are just not there. And of course the player loses his confidence and that compounds the issue.

We then see the player starting working hard and putting in the effort to get out of the slump. And I think you see that with Pettersson to some extent. But the reality is you can't just turn a switch and get back to your peak performance, and it can take a very long time to do so. And we saw this with his last slump years ago where it took him months to get out of.

With all that said, I am not saying that he doesn't have an injury or anything. I am just trying to convey how players as good as Pettersson can drop in performance so much with it not being predominately driven by injury,

 

[Quinning]

Chytil has fit like a glove so far. The main concern there is his injury history.

His zone entries are insane.

 

[604]

Guys like Forbort can benefit from a scratch as long as it’s communicated as rest. He’s old. Same with Myers. By the way, Forbort is now up to 9 straight games without a minus, although he was part of the long shift where Demko saved everyone’s butt. But still, it’s a streak, and considering the D problems this year at different points, why complain? He’s not Quinn, but neither are a bunch of them. There’s only one puck, and tonight it was Hronek’s. Over 7 minutes in PP time. The new MP3 played well also, but is he worth the money we are talking about? I don’t know. When Quinn is back, it’s his puck again. Petterson if signed long term will always be a second LHD behind Quinn, that’s only if the DPetey kid doesn’t push him to a near future third pairing. These talks about 7-8 year term deals at the price they are talking about is scary. He is 27. If he were 22 and playing like this, yeah. I sometimes think the GMs sign long deal, hope it gets them a Stanley in a year or so, when it doesn’t, they get fired, and leave an uncorrectable mess for the next G M. It’s more about themselves near term than it is long term to build a franchise. IDK. Maybe I’m crazy

Or 3Petey could be Chris Tanev and we’d regret not keeping him for longer when we had the chance.

No.

We are discussing what is causing his poor play instead if whining and bitching.

It’s very obviously the decline in his skating.

He’s not as fast as he used to be and doesn’t burst as often as he used to.

Why not?

I remember GMMG had a sports psychologist on staff (as maximizing his clients performance was part of his business as an agent). I wonder if the Canucks currently have one.

 

[cc]

It has to be drilled into Chytil to never ever admire his passes. When he got hit after looking behind at his pass, I held my breath a bit knowing his injury history

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Limited talent. Even when he scored 100 points I was never impressed with his process. Yes his skating is clearly worse this year, and maybe that's due to injury or injury limiting off-season training, but that is not the only reason he can't contribute. There are great players who are worse skaters.

I would also say that he did have one great game this year when people were shouting "Selke", that game he wasn't just good defensively but he was also among the most dangerous and dynamic I'd seen him as a Canuck any year. Some of his 5 point games in the past honestly he did barely anything of substance. So he has it in him to be good, and at least some of it is psychological. But great? I've never seen the elite qualities to suggest he can be a top notch center in the NHL without a lot of unforeseen growth. And no, he has never ever been that in the past.

I honestly don't think he's been THAT much worse this year, but it's like all the random luck he had before suddenly dried up, and people are finally taking notice. If he had 20 pucks bounce in off of skates in his favor probably no one would even be complaining. Last year to start the year when he was leading the league in scoring I thought he was pretty terrible then.

Not trying to be offensive, but this just makes it sound like there are nuances to the game that you don't quite get.

Petey, at his best, is a precision player. He's so incredible because everything he does is precise to the millionth of a percent. He puts a guy a little off balance, plays with his expectation, gets him leaning and then moves past him.

He reads the game to the millionth percent so that he's exactly where he's gotta' be to intercept a pass and turn the play the other way.

He's never been, nor going to be, a blunt force instrument like Mackinnon or McDavid where it's abundantly clear that he's the most physically gifted player on the planet.

Attributing what he does to luck just shows that you've been missing quite a lot of the subtlety in what he does well.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I noticed Hronek and Chytil really played well with each other and looked for each other a lot in the offensive zone.

Keep your eyes peeled for that. Extra chemistry is always a good thing and they are both from Czechia, have played together a bit, and know each other.

 

[kanucks25]

That shift was funny because it encapsulated the best/worst of Hoglander in one shift.

Earlier in that same shift, he made a terrible clearance attempt in his own zone where he tried a one-handed poke to cheat on a breakout, failed, and Colorado got a quality scoring chance out of it. Just totally unaware of the situation in a 2-0 game with 10 minutes left and the need to make the safe play. The sort of thing that gets you benched and loses coach trust, and justifiably so.

Then goes up the ice and has a great sequence, draws a penalty, gets involved in the scrum.

Yelled at my TV when he tried that idiotic poke attempt.

He has stretches where he plays well but never fails to mix in those kind of boneheaded decisions.

You try that maybe when you're down 2 late in the 3rd not the other way around.

 

[Breakers]

Bad teammates?????

Pettersson put up 100 points with beauvillier, that Russian dude we sent to Chicago along with our 2nd , and Kuzmenko as his primary linemates

Sooo essentially 3 seperate cap dumps

It is not his teammates
He has produced with scrubs

 

[VanillaCoke]

Could it be brain tendinitis?!

 

[Darwin101]

This is of course all speculation, but in a weird way, Miller's alleged behaviour sort of validates the theories around Pettersson's declining performance from an effort standpoint. I think Miller almost reflects the fanbase. They see an uber talented individual, they see what his ceiling is like, but then they also see this endless string of middling, low-event and low confidence performances. I think Miller did not suffer from the same challenges and being the super competitive teetering on the edge type of person, my guess is he finally snapped on Petey after years of witnessing these valleys in performance, and finally did something completely over the top. But isn't that what many of us have come to feel? And trading Miller doesn't change Petey's personality or issues I would venture to guess, although maybe it lightens the load slightly. So come playoff time, which player will we be wishing we had as our 1C?

 

[potatowejj]

I just wish he would shoot the puck more. Lord knows he could blast one timers all day being set up by Hughes on the PP.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yes, that was my post. I was trying to provide rationale to how a player's performance/dynamism can drop for reasons other than injury. I don't think people realize just how much effort NHLers put in day in and day out not to mentioned elite NHLers. You hear about it all the time where someone describes how dialed in an elite NHL player is, and what kind of schedule/regime they have. Just recently a player shared Kucherov's routine and was marveling at how dialed in it was. Referencing how Kucherov would do like 10s or 100s of the same drill where the puck was shot around the boards in the offensive zone and Kucherov picked it up off the boards, without delay, in his usual spot.

And I think Pettersson was, and can be, that kind of player. And we saw this when he talked about (I think during his draft year) how he dissected his shot into numerous segments in order to improve upon it. But it is quite possible that as he became accustomed to success in the NHL he started to take his pedal off the gas and started to let slip some of this preparation and drive. And initially, as you mentioned, the results continue and so there is almost a positive feedback to that decision. But the reality is that the player is getting results because of his previous preparation and drive. And then, predictably at some point, but often quite a bit later, the results then start to drop off as well. And this is when the player really enters into a slump. Because they both look to be performing poorly, but also the results are just not there. And of course the player loses his confidence and that compounds the issue.

We then see the player starting working hard and putting in the effort to get out of the slump. And I think you see that with Pettersson to some extent. But the reality is you can't just turn a switch and get back to your peak performance, and it can take a very long time to do so. And we saw this with his last slump years ago where it took him months to get out of.

With all that said, I am not saying that he doesn't have an injury or anything. I am just trying to convey how players as good as Pettersson can drop in performance so much with it not being predominately driven by injury,

it’s just so surprising to me. i mean i have no idea what’s wrong with him, or how many things. but when he got here he was hailed as having a sakic-like obsessive dedication to details and bettering himself. he was insanely competitive. and confidence through the roof.

i hate to think that all those benning/green years surrounded by guys who gave up just cashing cheques killed what was inside him. i’d love to believe that this isnjust a combination of injuries he can overcome, low confidence he can come back from, and lingering issues with a toxic coworker that he’ll forget.

 

[I am toxic]

I noticed Hronek and Chytil really played well with each other and looked for each other a lot in the offensive zone.

Keep your eyes peeled for that. Extra chemistry is always a good thing and they are both from Czechia, have played together a bit, and know each other.

Filips

They speak dolphin to each other