Post-Game Talk: GM 53 | Canucks def. Avs 3-0 (DeBrusk, Boeser, O’Connor) | WE ARE SO F***ING BACK

[docbenton]

No.

We are discussing what is causing his poor play instead if whining and bitching.

Limited talent. Even when he scored 100 points I was never impressed with his process. Yes his skating is clearly worse this year, and maybe that's due to injury or injury limiting off-season training, but that is not the only reason he can't contribute. There are great players who are worse skaters.

I would also say that he did have one great game this year when people were shouting "Selke", that game he wasn't just good defensively but he was also among the most dangerous and dynamic I'd seen him as a Canuck any year. Some of his 5 point games in the past honestly he did barely anything of substance. So he has it in him to be good, and at least some of it is psychological. But great? I've never seen the elite qualities to suggest he can be a top notch center in the NHL without a lot of unforeseen growth. And no, he has never ever been that in the past.

I honestly don't think he's been THAT much worse this year, but it's like all the random luck he had before suddenly dried up, and people are finally taking notice. If he had 20 pucks bounce in off of skates in his favor probably no one would even be complaining. Last year to start the year when he was leading the league in scoring I thought he was pretty terrible then.

 

[nowhereman]

No.

We are discussing what is causing his poor play instead if whining and bitching.

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

What does that mean?

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

I Dont understand what is left that is causing his issues?

He is choosing to not show up and needs to make the choise to show up?

Limited talent. Even when he scored 100 points I was never impressed with his process. Yes his skating is clearly worse this year, and maybe that's due to injury or injury limiting off-season training, but that is not the only reason he can't contribute. There are great players who are worse skaters.

I would also say that he did have one great game this year when people were shouting "Selke", that game he wasn't just good defensively but he was also among the most dangerous and dynamic I'd seen him as a Canuck any year. Some of his 5 point games in the past honestly he did barely anything of substance. So he has it in him to be good, and at least some of it is psychological. But great? I've never seen the elite qualities to suggest he can be a top notch center in the NHL without a lot of unforeseen growth. And no, he has never ever been that in the past.

I honestly don't think he's been THAT much worse this year, but it's like all the random luck he had before suddenly dried up, and people are finally taking notice. If he had 20 pucks bounce in off of skates in his favor probably no one would even be complaining. Last year to start the year when he was leading the league in scoring I thought he was pretty terrible then.

Meh.

Not interested.

 

[LuckyDay]

Man, there was just no quit in these Canucks and you could see the Avs getting visibility frustrated.
"Almost like a playoff game"
We've played this way a few times this month - almost carbon copying the Hurricanes the way they played us - and pulled it off.
The addition of the new players was quite visible and really helps this style of play. This is the kind of game you want if you want to go far.

As it was, it was goaltender's duel though the score doesn't reflect it. One goal tilted the ice and we goaded the Avs into penalties when McKimmon and Makar weren't able to finish anything. Blackwood was the one keeping them in the game. We did get our chances in the 5-3 but Blackwood. The Avs were the cup winners in 2022 for a reason.

This Canucks team is like trying to figure out where the particle is in Quantum physics. If you think they are going to win they lose because you think they are going to win. If you know they are going to lose they win because you think that. If you think they are going to lose because you know they think they are going to win they know what you are thinking so they win.
It's mind boggling.
It's Schrödinger's Canucks.

 

[Hodgy]

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

I said it in the Pettersson thread, but at a certain point, the why doesn't really matter. In some ways, I think it would actually be the best if the reason Pettersson has played so poorly was because he did let the foot off the gas after signing his big contract, and didn't prepare enough physically and mentally, because this actually allows for Pettersson to regain form once he re-commits himself. And I do still think Pettersson can re-commit himself as Pettersson is an uber competitive person with a drive to win, as we saw this after he was drafted for many years. So I don't think this has vanished.

If his poor play is all or mostly the result of an injury, which is usually described as "nagging" or insignificant (and in fact Pettersson has described it as nagging in the past) then I am almost more concerned as NHL players routinely have nagging injuries that they must play through. And if Pettersson is going to be like half as effective whenever he is dealing with a nagging injury then I have some major concerns in terms of his performance over the balance of his contract.

 

[MS]

It’s a discussion until someone suggests that maybe the blame actually falls on Pettersson and not on one (or all) of the litany of external factors. That never seems to be one of the options.

Maybe it's the knee, even though that would suggest this is one of the rarer, outlier cases of this particular injury in hockey (and not a higher-impact sport like basketball)? Maybe it's the coach, even though Pettersson had no problems putting up points in late 2022-23 and early 2023-24? Maybe it's his linemates, even though he's played well with poor linemates before and has some of the best wingers on the team this season? Maybe it's JT Miller, even though there are countless examples of successful championship teams with players who hate each other? Maybe it's his lack of playing time with Hughes, even though he's played with Hughes more than any other forward on the team? Maybe it was having to train around his injury in the summer, even though we're now in February and most players would have long since played themselves into shape?

Or maybe, it's time to stop guessing and look to Pettersson to finally leave all the external factors behind and show up to play like he can?

Yeah, it now just seems to be spinning the wheel to see what excuse we land on now. But the problem is that he's looked terrible basically no matter who he's been playing with for a year now.

And yeah, maybe he has a minor knee issue. But that doesn't matter in the context of a performance this bad. There is a base level expectation that star players in this league can suck it up and play through injury and perform. Hughes has been doing it for the past month. Miller has done it. Boeser was scoring hat tricks in last year's playoffs with a broken hand. McDavid, Crosby, Stone, Kucherov, Matthews ... basically every star player you can name has had some sort of injury issue at some point over the last few years, most more serious than anything Pettersson has. And they suck it up, and they perform. Maybe not at 100% of their regular level, but at 80% or 90%. If you can't do that and you turn into a pumpkin because you have a minor knee issue, you're soft as f***.

And then you toss the 'preparation' stuff from Allvin and the credible reports he came into camp in lousy shape into the mix and yeah ... this is on Pettersson.

 

[ephmrl]

Yeah, it now just seems to be spinning the wheel to see what excuse we land on now. But the problem is that he's looked terrible basically no matter who he's been playing with for a year now.

And yeah, maybe he has a minor knee issue. But that doesn't matter in the context of a performance this bad. There is a base level expectation that star players in this league can suck it up and play through injury and perform. Hughes has been doing it for the past month. Miller has done it. Boeser was scoring hat tricks in last year's playoffs with a broken hand. McDavid, Crosby, Stone, Kucherov, Matthews ... basically every star player you can name has had some sort of injury issue at some point over the last few years, most more serious than anything Pettersson has. And they suck it up, and they perform. Maybe not at 100% of their regular level, but at 80% or 90%. If you can't do that and you turn into a pumpkin because you have a minor knee issue, you're soft as f***.

And then you toss the 'preparation' stuff from Allvin and the credible reports he came into camp in lousy shape into the mix and yeah ... this is on Pettersson.

It's such a strange situation to try to understand, never seen anything like it in the sport before. It would be easy to say that he's checked out or doesn't care about hockey, but his defensive fundamentals are still there and he's laying the body on the forecheck, which is something he's never done before.

Somehow he's lost his skating ability, consistency in his shot, and stick handling inexplicably. There's times when he messes up on simply just controlling the puck on the powerplay with no pressure, thats crazy for a player with his pedigree. He routinely flubs simple passes, but then he'll nail a beautiful pass that basically no one else in the league would be able to pull off, like the one he floated in for Boeser against Detroit.

Seems like its a combination of mental + physical injury, but as you said, many superstar players have had to battle through serious injuries and still made themselves a factor in games and were able to reach a baseline of effectiveness.

 

[Diversification]

It's like a weight has been lifted off their shoulders. Miller was addition by subtraction.

LOL. He's Zibanejad's problem now...

 

[MS]

It's such a strange situation to try to understand, never seen anything like it in the sport before. It would be easy to say that he's checked out or doesn't care about hockey, but his defensive fundamentals are still there and he's laying the body on the forecheck, which is something he's never done before.

Somehow he's lost his skating ability, consistency in his shot, and stick handling inexplicably. There's times when he messes up on simply just controlling the puck on the powerplay with no pressure, thats crazy for a player with his pedigree. He routinely flubs simple passes, but then he'll nail a beautiful pass that basically no one else in the league would be able to pull off, like the one he floated in for Boeser against Detroit.

Seems like its a combination of mental + physical injury, but as you said, many superstar players have had to battle through serious injuries and still made themselves a factor in games and were able to reach a baseline of effectiveness.

I've talked a few times about the interview PL Dubois gave in the summer about what went wrong in LA and my speculation would be that that is about as close as you'll see to the issues Pettersson is having.

Take it as you like, but I've always needed clear instructions to do my job 100%.
...
I'm mixed when there are grey areas. I've been working on it since I was young. And from my first conversations with the team, I didn't really know what was expected of me. I didn't know where I was. You can't play well when you're asking yourself too many questions.
...
Maybe it was me who was too demanding to want to be explained the way forward. It's obviously my fault it didn't work.
...
I tried to take up the challenge but I stayed in a grey area all year. I didn't feel at home. The players tried to help me and I wanted it to unlock, but it just didn't work.
...
Professionally, it was the worst scenario. You want to please your team, the people around you.

They maybe aren't exactly the same people - Dubois seems to be a guy who struggles if his role and responsibilities aren't clearly defined for him, and Petterson I think is a really highly-strung guy who functions great when things are perfect but gets lost in his head when his circumstances (contract, minor injury, etc) aren't ideal - but the way Dubois describes being lost and not being able to 'unlock' is probably very similar to what Pettersson is going through.

Someone (@Hodgy maybe?) also mentioned how these things go in stages and the further and longer it goes, the harder it is to get out of it. 22-23 Pettersson was dialed in. Pettersson in the first half of 23-24 was still producing, but a lot of us were commenting at the time how it was a lot of complimentary points and he wasn't driving offense in the same way or looking as engaged as the year prior. Then the wheels fell off in the second half. And now they've stayed off this year. And he's gotten himself down a really deep hole at this point.

 

[Curm]

The two skirmishes in the 3rd period were a great sign.

First, just under seven minutes into the period, O'Connor from the Avs took out Garland and EP25 went right after him and when O'Connor and Woods took exception to that, Soucy and DeBrusk immediately waded in while EP25 stood in there and held his ground.

Then, with seven and a half minutes to go, after Woods took the penalty on Hoglander and speared Karlsson, Hoglander made a b-line straight to Woods and gave him a whack, and when Coulton came in and ripped Hogs lid off, he was greeted with a punch to the face by Hogs before Myers jumped in and tossed him around a bit. Meanwhile, you had EP25 getting a good hold on Toews after Myers had swatted him away.

I LOVE that stuff.