GDT: GM#51 LA Kings vs Nashville Predators @5:30

Ziggy Stardust

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Forbort is fine defensively. And gets a lot of D zone starts and faces top competition when paired with DD. A lot of teams would love to have him. Imo

For a dman who is 6’4” and 215, you would think he’d be stronger or would use his body more, but he doesn’t.

He also gets burned so often by opponents. He’s not an intimidating player in the least bit.

A lot of teams probably already have a Forbort on their roster. What is this special talent he possesses that other teams wish they had?
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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For a dman who is 6’4” and 215, you would think he’d be stronger or would use his body more, but he doesn’t.

He also gets burned so often by opponents. He’s not an intimidating player in the least bit.

A lot of teams probably already have a Forbort on their roster. What is this special talent he possesses that other teams wish they had?

I don't really want to say this because it sparked a war before, but it's the same thing that compels the #2 team in the league to play McNabb as a #2 shutdown d-man--the ability to eat 20 hard minutes a night without being a liability (I know that last part is the point of contention for some people, but just humor me).

You're right thought that a lot of teams have someone, even someone better, in that role--because it's an important one and those guys rarely get the glamor. Hell, Klingberg is getting Norris acclaim this year as he should, but he's enabled by a pairing behind him in Hamhuis-Methot-Pateryn playing all the hard minutes. Our big problem is that Forbort is certainly no Mitchell, and that Doughty is often eating those hard minutes with Forbort to free up Muzzin instead of Muzzin to free up Doughty.

I still think he's just more miscast than outright bad. We have Doughty, then we have 5 complementary d-men instead of a guy who can carry a pairing. Ideally, we have Doughty - x (probably Muzzin), Voynov clone - x, Martinez - x , where x is any number of our complementary guys in Forbort, Gravel, Folin, etc
 
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KingsFan7824

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Dec 4, 2003
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They won't sign 1 year deals. That is simple. There is a market out there.

Just saying the Kings have had some bad luck with their contracts lately. Almost every guy since Quick in June 2012 has had a down season months after signing their deal.

Or hope they perform up to their standards.

They won in Doughty's first year after his ELC. Quick had a bad regular season in 2013. Brown had his first "what's wrong with Brown?" season in 13-14. Kopitar had a mess of a season last year for any number of reasons. Gaborik had a good first year in his new contract, then fell off. Toffoli started the season well, but he's currently a ghost. Pearson has been off from day one. Maybe it shouldn't be a surprise. If Doughty signs, I'm sure it'll happen with him too, because of course it will, because the Kings sold their soul for that 2nd Cup, and nothing will go right for a long time.
 

deaderhead28

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Jul 3, 2010
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I would think that any coach coming in to take over this below-average team with several (many!!) non-performing high-salary players would get at least 2 years to see what kind of performance he can get out of them.
Issue is Stevens has been part of the coaching staff for about 7 years.Remember he couldn't make it work in Philly and was passed over in LA when Lombardi fired Murray.Stevens isn't new and shouldn't have two years to make it work since he knows this roster and its players.Throw in he can't make adjustments against other teams.
 

BigKing

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He was "passed over" for the guy Lombardi coveted.

DL wanted Sutter. He got him. Case closed.

If Sutter chose to voluntarily go back to the farm, it was Stevens job.
 

deaderhead28

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He was "passed over" for the guy Lombardi coveted.

DL wanted Sutter. He got him. Case closed.

If Sutter chose to voluntarily go back to the farm, it was Stevens job.
Yes the guy Lombardi thought was the best coach at the time and extended Sutter as well.It wasn't Stevens.He kept Stevens due to his defensive coaching.Hint Lombardi wasn't firing Sutter and replacing him with Stevens,Lombardi was going down with the ship with Sutter.
 
Jul 31, 2005
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For a dman who is 6’4” and 215, you would think he’d be stronger or would use his body more, but he doesn’t.

He also gets burned so often by opponents. He’s not an intimidating player in the least bit.

A lot of teams probably already have a Forbort on their roster. What is this special talent he possesses that other teams wish they had?

Is it his outstanding shooting percentage? It's funny how the statisticians will use their nerdy numbers to explain why a player can be good but have no points like Shore yet when you use their numbers against them they come back with "shut down defensemen". How do you prove that exactly? Who is he shutting down? When the Kings are losing game after game and not scoring goals is his "shut down" game still evident or is that in wins? Is he shutting down the offense as well? Would he have more points if his CORSI rating was adjusted so that his average TOI was elevated in the offensive zone with the properly matched up players against the other teams 4th line?
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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Is it his outstanding shooting percentage? It's funny how the statisticians will use their nerdy numbers to explain why a player can be good but have no points like Shore yet when you use their numbers against them they come back with "shut down defensemen". How do you prove that exactly? Who is he shutting down? When the Kings are losing game after game and not scoring goals is his "shut down" game still evident or is that in wins? Is he shutting down the offense as well? Would he have more points if his CORSI rating was adjusted so that his average TOI was elevated in the offensive zone with the properly matched up players against the other teams 4th line?

I've got a lot of simple answers here for you but I guarantee you won't like to hear them.

"Defensive role" easy to prove with shot and goal differentials when they're on the ice despite starting the majority of their time vs top competition on hard spots on the ice (Forbort, notably, has struggled with this lately though, which is why you don't see him being defended right now--but he did before and the stats exist whether you like them or not). Regehr, Mitchell had similar numbers to Forbort (for role comparison, not at all saying Forbort is either of those two).

Shutting down hard competition is easy to see with Quality of Competition stats, especially when you compare team-internally. If you're consistently seeing top-3-6 ToI QoC, you're facing top players more often than not.

No, when Forbort is struggling, we're likely struggling. When Shore is struggling, not as much, but yeah, we're likely struggling. But I don't know what you're trying to prove here, it's like complaining "oh, are we winning when Kopitar isn't scoring?" When players aren't playing to their strengths throughout the lineup, we lose. We're not that good that anyone can take nights off, don't need stats for that.

Shore might have more points in an offensive role but there's nothing predictive about his current stats that would suggest that but I realize that last point is simply a biased tongue-in-cheek mockery by someone who rails against them because they don't understand them or the idea that some folks aren't so binary that it's stats-no stats. It's a lot easier to listen when your fingers are removed from your ears, and you might even learn something, even if you just disagree with it and would like to debate it.

This is all, though, just a thinly-veiled complaint about the raw production of our bottom players which has been demonstrated time and time again as a fallacy.
 
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damacles1156

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Feb 5, 2010
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If Forbort was traded, and put into a proper role IE: Five/Four sometimes Three/Four. He would all of a sudden not make as many mistakes. Then everybody on this board would be walling that we lost a solid 2nd/3rd paring Defender.

Just like all young players not named McDavid(skill set) They struggle in higher roles.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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If Forbort was traded, and put into a proper role IE: Five/Four sometimes Three/Four. He would all of a sudden not make as many mistakes. Then everybody on this board would be walling that we lost a solid 2nd/3rd paring Defender.

Just like all young players not named McDavid(skill set) They struggle in higher roles.

I don't think so. All I had to do was whisper the name "McNabb" and I had to take a break from this board for a few days :laugh:
 
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Fishhead

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If Forbort was traded, and put into a proper role IE: Five/Four sometimes Three/Four. He would all of a sudden not make as many mistakes. Then everybody on this board would be walling that we lost a solid 2nd/3rd paring Defender.

Just like all young players not named McDavid(skill set) They struggle in higher roles.

The problem with Forbort has been he hasn't been good as a bottom pairing guy, he's been poor with anyone but Doughty since coming up. He has to play with a really good player to look good, which is a problem, because then he's looking at difficult minutes. McNabb used to get roasted around here, yet he's proven to be a more reliable, better defender than Forbort this year.

It's the most frustrating thing about Forbort. He came in and played great for a while then has been shaky and up and down ever since. If Gravel and LaDue keep clicking and taking steps, Forbort should be the #7 once Martinez gets healthy, which is a shame because he can play much better than he has showed.
 

lumbergh

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Jan 8, 2007
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I still maintain that McNabb was a big loss in the expansion draft, although it could not have been avoided unless the Kings either gave up Trevor Lewis or traded Vegas Forbort. I would have traded Vegas Forbort to keep McNabb and Lewis, but that's water all under the bridge now.
 

Fishhead

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I still maintain that McNabb was a big loss in the expansion draft, although it could not have been avoided unless the Kings either gave up Trevor Lewis or traded Vegas Forbort. I would have traded Vegas Forbort to keep McNabb and Lewis, but that's water all under the bridge now.

I don't think there's a huge gap between Forbort and McNabb, so at the time even though I thought McNabb a slightly better player with a physical aspect the team was lacking, the differences in salary made it easier to expose McNabb. Then the Kings signed him to that contract which was more than McNabb makes, which I found unpalatable. The org. is obviously higher on Forbort than I am, as I think his game is limited.

I personally would have protected McNabb over Forbort, but in the big picture that would probably have a very minimal impact on where the Kings are in the standings anyways.
 

kingsfan28

Its A Kingspiracy !
Feb 27, 2005
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Yes the guy Lombardi thought was the best coach at the time and extended Sutter as well.It wasn't Stevens.He kept Stevens due to his defensive coaching.Hint Lombardi wasn't firing Sutter and replacing him with Stevens,Lombardi was going down with the ship with Sutter.

Yep, he was on record saying he'd never fire Sutter out of respect. After blowing a 12 point lead and the way he checked out during the playoffs, Lombardi should've seen the writing on the wall and not signed Sutter to a new contract.
 

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