GDT: GM#3 LA Kings vs Winnipeg Jets @5:00pm 10/9/18

[Sol]

some not so fun facts:

We've gone from best possession team in the league by a full 4% at 56.37% to 39.26% in 3 years. That's phenomenal if you hate shot differentials. And yes it's a small sample size but we were below league average last year too, just a hair over 50%. per Rosen, "The Kings have yielded 110 shots through their first three games (36.7 shots against per game)".

Doughty has been on the ice for 4 goals for and none against. Muzzin has been on for 1 for and 2 against, Martinez 2 for and 6 against. But sure lets keep forcing it.

Kopitar is playing more minutes than most #1 d-men. He's playing more than PK subban. He played more than anyone in this game except Doughty and more than anyone on the jets but Byfuglien…only 30 s less. Yeah he gets paid a lot and yeah he can handle it but if the spread between your top C and your bottom C without injury or overtime is nearly 20 minutes that's just something else entirely.

I've defended Blake a lot and praised a lot of his moves but he wears this for not even interviewing another coach. The dying gasps of Terry Murray hockey sucked, but at least you know what the identity and system (HOME PLATE LIKE THE JERSEY LOL) was. If anyone has a ****ing clue what we're supposed to be or do or what Blake/Stevens' vision for the team is going forward, please let me AND them know.

I am beyond disgusted. There is far too much talent on this team for your system to be "Jack Campbell" (and don't get pedantic here about "too much talent" because just about everyone agrees this team "should" be sniffing around the bubble). Gonna be fun to see what happens when the 5v5 save percentage drops from its current 96.39% to something more reflective of the flow of play. Right now we have the alibi of injuries and the games are close and I'm hating it because I'm rooting for Campbell bigtime.

Blake needs to either fire Stevens at 10 games OR if he's not going to do that trade everything from the Cup years but Kopitar and Doughty. At least that will make us miss the playoffs by a good amount.

I agree and the stats back everything up. No one is calling Stevens to get fired because of the bad performances only, it's the way he's running the team that's drawing a ton of ire from fans like myself.


The real question is this, how long is it going to take Blake to let go Stevens? That's the real question. I know there used to be more insiders here, but I am very curious if there's anyone who has an idea of the current relationship between them.


Stevens is making some insanely bad judgement calls, fireable ones at that.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Players do what they are told . Haven’t you seen they consistently do the same move on the pp over and over and over skate up drop pass back lmao . It’s terrible coaching that’s the problem not the players .

If players have to be told to be engaged, that's more than a coaching problem.

 

[The Tikkanen]

Carters feet and Doughty's stick have lost a full step. On the PP at the end of the game Martinez is in the zone and backhands the puck down low where nobody was looking for the dump because nobody dumps the puck on the PP. I have a feeling after 10 games either the coach is fired or there is a major trade coming. Too many passengers, vets who can do everything but score goals or play any sort of offense and faster youth who can do everything but play Steven's rear naked choke system.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Well we can agree to disagree on what happened between June 2014 and the end of the 2017 season.

But I think you are spot on about the just collecting a paycheck part, and I think I mentioned that in another post. Most of the players on this team have atleast one ring and most of them have signed the biggest NHL contracts they will ever sign. That is just a recipe for disaster, IMO. Just not enough hungry players. I get grilled and mocked for it from some, but I think it's ridiculous to have support players in one place for so long. Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Brown? ok. Lewis, Clifford, Martinez, Toffoli, Pearson? No.

The Kings have won 1 playoff game the last 4 seasons (post Cup). You would think that would bring massive changes, but nope, we still have 11 players, or half the roster as holdovers. How is that possible?

Lombardi was here through 2017. The only Cup guy he traded was King at the very end. Blake has been working from a position of weakness in terms of large contracts, older players, and player performance. Should've traded Pearson after the 24 goals he scored, but it's also possible other teams didn't think he would do that again, so they won't give you much for a 3rd line LW.

some not so fun facts:

We've gone from best possession team in the league by a full 4% at 56.37% to 39.26% in 3 years. That's phenomenal if you hate shot differentials. And yes it's a small sample size but we were below league average last year too, just a hair over 50%. per Rosen, "The Kings have yielded 110 shots through their first three games (36.7 shots against per game)".

Yes, Stevens isn't Sutter or Murray. This isn't the "possession" Kings anymore. Maybe they should go back to that, but the players got sick of it. Cup win, June 2014. Trash cans, spring 2015.

Doughty has been on the ice for 4 goals for and none against. Muzzin has been on for 1 for and 2 against, Martinez 2 for and 6 against. But sure lets keep forcing it.

Well there's no Greene on the roster to save Martinez in the d-zone.

PK minutes between 11-12 and 13-14
Mitchell, 3:16
Greene, 2:55
Scuderi, 2:52
Regehr, 2:43
Doughty, 2:22
Martinez, 0:22
Muzzin, 0:18

PK minutes between 15-16 and 18-19
Doughty, 2:45
Muzzin, 2:20
Forbort, 2:18
Martinez, 2:17

M&M were the young guys back then, but they're not PK guys. They're the vets now, and it's on them. Is LaDue going to go out there? Phaneuf hasn't been a PK guy as a King. There's nobody left on the roster that can shield Martinez. They also rely on Muzzin for more than he can do. But, age and the cap suck.

Kopitar is playing more minutes than most #1 d-men. He's playing more than PK subban. He played more than anyone in this game except Doughty and more than anyone on the jets but Byfuglien…only 30 s less. Yeah he gets paid a lot and yeah he can handle it but if the spread between your top C and your bottom C without injury or overtime is nearly 20 minutes that's just something else entirely.

Kopitar has averaged less 5v5 time than P.Kane in the same 3 games played, and about a minute more overall. Averaging about the same shifts per game as Jordan Staal. One more per game than Benn and Toews. 1.5 more than Koivu. His 50 seconds per shift are tied for 45th in the league with guys like Nick Foligno, RNH, Mantha, O'Reilly.

I've defended Blake a lot and praised a lot of his moves but he wears this for not even interviewing another coach. The dying gasps of Terry Murray hockey sucked, but at least you know what the identity and system (HOME PLATE LIKE THE JERSEY LOL) was. If anyone has a ****ing clue what we're supposed to be or do or what Blake/Stevens' vision for the team is going forward, please let me AND them know.

They're not a possession team anymore, if they ever truly were(not sure if throwing the puck on net is really possession). They're a more open team now, just without enough speed and/or talent to do it I guess. They're not going back to that grind hockey anymore either, because the players got tired of it.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Clifford, Muzzin, Phaneuf, Forbort, Toffoli, Pearson, young kids, list goes on and on. Depth is a serious issue. Or just get rid of freakin Stevens. His last coaching job was a disaster was it not. Gonna be a looooooooonger season.

I have no problem with the bolded.

Clifford is our 13th/12th forward.
Muzzin is on the 2nd pairing.
Phaneuf plays on the 3rd pairing.
Toffoli gets 2nd line minutes.

Forbort probably shouldn't get the ice time he's getting but he's Doughty's partner so there's not much you can do.
Pearson has been f***ing terrible and isn't anything more than a 3rd liner at this point.

 

[YP44]

3 games so not going to panic. Don't like seeing LA badly outshot like that and the PP needs to get going.

1-1-1 is a record I would have taken looking at the first three games before the start of the year.

 

[KingsHockey24]

- Kempe is our 3rd line center and he hasn't scored a goal in 35 games.
- Jeff Carter looks old, like really old.
- Pearson has been invisible, at this point I think he's expendable due to Iafallo/Wagner playing so well.
- Amadio has averaged 6 minutes a night so far this season.
- Lewis has returned to being 2008-2015 stone hands.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

3 games so not going to panic. Don't like seeing LA badly outshot like that and the PP needs to get going.

1-1-1 is a record I would have taken looking at the first three games before the start of the year.

“It’s not always whether you win or lose. It’s whether you’re winning or losing.” - Darryl Sutter

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

- Kempe is our 3rd line center and he hasn't scored a goal in 35 games.
- Jeff Carter looks old, like really old.
- Pearson has been invisible, at this point I think he's expendable due to Iafallo/Wagner playing so well.
- Amadio has averaged 6 minutes a night so far this season.
- Lewis has returned to being 2008-2015 stone hands.

If you think Wagner has been playing well....I dunno....that's....not good, he hasn't played well at all. He's killed offense, he was the direct cause of a GA.

If he doesn't have the finish in him, it's best to turn him into a defensive specialist.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yes, Stevens isn't Sutter or Murray. This isn't the "possession" Kings anymore. Maybe they should go back to that, but the players got sick of it. Cup win, June 2014. Trash cans, spring 2015.

Which is fine, but I don't think anyone knows what they are, and that's the major problem. They're not playing offense, as evidenced by lack of shots for, PP, and goals. They're not playing defense, as evidenced by shots against and high danger chances with drew off the ice. Their only transition game occurs when Doughty, Kopitar, Kovalchuk decide to shed the system and improvise, or Wagner negates an icing/dumpout with speed. I'll bring the trash cans myself if I have to.

Well there's no Greene on the roster to save Martinez in the d-zone.

PK minutes between 11-12 and 13-14
Mitchell, 3:16
Greene, 2:55
Scuderi, 2:52
Regehr, 2:43
Doughty, 2:22
Martinez, 0:22
Muzzin, 0:18

PK minutes between 15-16 and 18-19
Doughty, 2:45
Muzzin, 2:20
Forbort, 2:18
Martinez, 2:17

M&M were the young guys back then, but they're not PK guys. They're the vets now, and it's on them. Is LaDue going to go out there? Phaneuf hasn't been a PK guy as a King. There's nobody left on the roster that can shield Martinez. They also rely on Muzzin for more than he can do. But, age and the cap suck.

Sure, but I'm not concerned on shielding either Martinez or Muzzin. I think they have to sink or swim on their own. But they've proven to be absolutely toxic together which is my main complaint. Nevermind the "all LHD" thing.

Kopitar has averaged less 5v5 time than P.Kane in the same 3 games played, and about a minute more overall. Averaging about the same shifts per game as Jordan Staal. One more per game than Benn and Toews. 1.5 more than Koivu. His 50 seconds per shift are tied for 45th in the league with guys like Nick Foligno, RNH, Mantha, O'Reilly.

And as I said I'm okay with Kopitar handling the most minutes in the league. He's done it and this is just emblematic of the minutes he usually plays to a degree. Can't say that about the other guys. The issue I have here is that we have more center depth than last year but Kopitar's minutes are up instead of down because instead of playing safe ol Nick Shore a couple more minutes he's decided to staple the kids to the bench.

 

[KingsHockey24]

If you think Wagner has been playing well....I dunno....that's....not good, he hasn't played well at all. He's killed offense, he was the direct cause of a GA.

If he doesn't have the finish in him, it's best to turn him into a defensive specialist.

He's created more scoring chances than the players listed.

 

[KingsFan7824]

3 games so not going to panic. Don't like seeing LA badly outshot like that and the PP needs to get going.

1-1-1 is a record I would have taken looking at the first three games before the start of the year.

Outshot by an average of 15.7 shots per game so far(and that's not a me and Bezos average out to 2 billionaires sort of average). Outshot in every period they've played except the 3d period last night, but the Jets were still close. Averaging 21 shots themselves, so that's going to be maybe 2 goals per game, based on the standard 9+ out of 10 shots being saved. Take out the empty net goal, and they're at exactly 2 goals per game. They have 6 shots on net from defensemen so far, and Martinez has 3 of them. Lewis leads the team with 11 shots on net. Toffoli's goal came on a nice hustle play, give him credit, but it took a great bounce off the boards. Not that beggars can be choosers with Toffoli. Any goal he gets at this point is good. Of the top 4 faceoff guys for the Kings, only Thompson is over 48%. Carter is worse than Kempe, on 7 more faceoffs taken. Amadio has won 1 of the 7 he's taken.

Other than being 1-1-1, and an E for goal differential, it's been a fairly poor start. Could easily be 0-3, probably should be, but they're not.

 

[YP44]

Outshot by an average of 15.7 shots per game so far(and that's not a me and Bezos average out to 2 billionaires sort of average). Outshot in every period they've played except the 3d period last night, but the Jets were still close. Averaging 21 shots themselves, so that's going to be maybe 2 goals per game, based on the standard 9+ out of 10 shots being saved. Take out the empty net goal, and they're at exactly 2 goals per game. They have 6 shots on net from defensemen so far, and Martinez has 3 of them. Lewis leads the team with 11 shots on net. Toffoli's goal came on a nice hustle play, give him credit, but it took a great bounce off the boards. Not that beggars can be choosers with Toffoli. Any goal he gets at this point is good. Of the top 4 faceoff guys for the Kings, only Thompson is over 48%. Carter is worse than Kempe, on 7 more faceoffs taken. Amadio has won 1 of the 7 he's taken.

Other than being 1-1-1, and an E for goal differential, it's been a fairly poor start. Could easily be 0-3, probably should be, but they're not.

yup but I'm not not worried yet. Only 3 games

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

He's created more scoring chances than the players listed.

Are we talking about the same Wagner? He created one last night, killed about 3, and was directly responsible for a goal against.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Which is fine, but I don't think anyone knows what they are, and that's the major problem. They're not playing offense, as evidenced by lack of shots for, PP, and goals. They're not playing defense, as evidenced by shots against and high danger chances with drew off the ice. Their only transition game occurs when Doughty, Kopitar, Kovalchuk decide to shed the system and improvise, or Wagner negates an icing/dumpout with speed. I'll bring the trash cans myself if I have to.

Yeah, the passing and puck handling has been poor. We've said those same things many times over the years with this team, and nothing they try will work if those basic elements of hockey aren't clicking at all.

Sure, but I'm not concerned on shielding either Martinez or Muzzin. I think they have to sink or swim on their own. But they've proven to be absolutely toxic together which is my main complaint. Nevermind the "all LHD" thing.

Agreed, but does it matter? Put Muzzin out there with LaDue or Phaneuf, but I don't know if that's going to make Muzzin look less awkward. Put him with Doughty, and where does Forbort go? Put Martinez on the left side with Phaneuf, and it's still LHD/LHD. Put Martinez out with LaDue, and sweet jesus. Although who knows, maybe it works. Put Phaneuf with Doughty, somehow fit Muzzin with Forbort? Still a bunch of lefty/lefty.

Get M&M away from each other simply for the sake of doing it, but it'll still be a mess back there. At least one of the pairs will always not look right. That's been the case since pretty much October 2014.

And as I said I'm okay with Kopitar handling the most minutes in the league. He's done it and this is just emblematic of the minutes he usually plays to a degree. Can't say that about the other guys. The issue I have here is that we have more center depth than last year but Kopitar's minutes are up instead of down because instead of playing safe ol Nick Shore a couple more minutes he's decided to staple the kids to the bench.

To me that's been dictated by the context of each game. The scoreboard has been too close, and the play on the ice has been too lopsided, to just roll 4 lines. I'm not completely sure why they were going to try X up until Brown got hurt, and then threw it out the window. Amadio could still be playing as the 3C, with Kempe/Carter on the wing. It's not like Stevens is the first coach to ever give vets the chance to suck though. We fans tend to complain if coaches change a lineup too often. Let them work together for a bit even if it's not working right now! We also tend to blame coaches if they don't change the lineup often enough. It's not working right now, change it! We're all tired of the 70's, although they did work 12 months ago, but Stevens did break them up as the game went along last night.

 

[Fishhead]

One thing about Martinez. He’s only been in the ice for 2 ES goals against, the rest were power play goals. So 6 GA is kind of misleading.

It’s too early to look at possession metrics, really. The worst possession team in the league right now is the 3-0-0 Ducks. The three teams worse than the Kings are a combined 5-2-1.

Special teams are a problem so far. The Kings have the third best even strength goal differential in the league so far, despite playing two top teams in their first 3 games. I did not expect that.

It’s not all rosy, but it’s not all terrible either. The most glaring thing so far is that a players coach is not appropriate for this roster. For all their leadership, this team needs to be pushed on a daily basis. The 2nd half of last season and the beginning of this season is exactly like they were playing under Murray near the end. It’s not that the players are off the hook for their performance, but there is an obvious issue with accountability. Player deployment isn’t helping matters either. I get why the younger guys were benched last night, they weren’t good. But that’s exactly why they should have been played more in the Detroit game, when you know a rough one is right around the corner.

 

[KINGS17]

The players on this roster are not cutting it. It's as simple as that. The Kings should have traded many of them 2 years ago minimum. Now the value of Carter, Martinez, Muzzin, Lewis, Pearson, Toffoli, etc. has dropped substantially. It's hard to believe Luc Robitaille says this is a cup contending roster with a straight face.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

One thing about Martinez. He’s only been in the ice for 2 ES goals against, the rest were power play goals. So 6 GA is kind of misleading.

It’s too early to look at possession metrics, really. The worst possession team in the league right now is the 3-0-0 Ducks. The three teams worse than the Kings are a combined 5-2-1.

Special teams are a problem so far. The Kings have the third best even strength goal differential in the league so far, despite playing two top teams in their first 3 games. I did not expect that.

It’s not all rosy, but it’s not all terrible either. The most glaring thing so far is that a players coach is not appropriate for this roster. For all their leadership, this team needs to be pushed on a daily basis. The 2nd half of last season and the beginning of this season is exactly like they were playing under Murray near the end. It’s not that the players are off the hook for their performance, but there is an obvious issue with accountability. Player deployment isn’t helping matters either. I get why the younger guys were benched last night, they weren’t good. But that’s exactly why they should have been played more in the Detroit game, when you know a rough one is right around the corner.

I could turn around and paint a rosier picture too. I'm highlighting the most dramatic ones that are clearly impacted by coaching.

Yes, Martinez was only on for 2 ES goals against; 6 total. We've only allowed 7 goals. Stop handicapping the guy by putting him on his wrong side with a toxic partner in probably the worst-fit role for him. Or trade him.

The possession metrics are contextualized by past years. I don't expect us to be the worst in the league, but going from by far the best in the league to below-average at best with no real reason is bad. At first it was because we were eschewing shot volume to try more adventurous things (quality > quantity), but now it's simply because we're bleeding shots against because we can't get out of our zone.

There may be nowhere to go but up but if the answer is to play Kopitar like #1 dman and Doughty every other shift until they die that's not good coaching. I don't care about their contracts, whether they can handle it, etc., it's utter garbage all around. It takes a really poor coach to take a roster with such a high ceiling and suck the potential out of it. There's something clearly and completely wrong behind the decisions of just about every game situation I can imagine.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The players on this roster are not cutting it. It's as simple as that. The Kings should have traded many of them 2 years ago minimum. Now the value of Carter, Martinez, Muzzin, Lewis, Pearson, Toffoli, etc. has dropped substantially. It's hard to believe Luc Robitaille says this is a cup contending roster with a straight face.

Again, I bring up SJ, what's the difference of their supporting cats, and LA's, besides you see LA's every day?

You have their top players, Pavelski, Couture, then...they have as a supporting cast, Hertl, Kane, Meier, Melker Karlsson, Lablanc, Donskoi, etc on D apart from the top 3, Dillon, Braun, and Ryan....

Yet, everyone here thinks SJ is a contender....

 

[KingsFan7824]

The most glaring thing so far is that a players coach is not appropriate for this roster.

They got a coach's coach fired already, and that was after winning 2 Cups with him. What non-player's coach is coming in here to dictate what happens? The players have won, and most have their big contract cemented. Name the coach that would have their respect. Maybe gruffy Quenneville? They beat his team in the last important game they played against each other though, and again, turned on the coach that they won the Cup with. Some younger tough coach? Is there one? Does that guy exist in today's world?

This is a player's team. Not just Robitaille and Blake, but the actual active players.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I changed my profile picture, maybe Sol will stop bullying me.

 

[KINGS17]

They got a coach's coach fired already, and that was after winning 2 Cups with him. What non-player's coach is coming in here to dictate what happens? The players have won, and most have their big contract cemented. Name the coach that would have their respect. Maybe gruffy Quenneville? They beat his team in the last important game they played against each other though, and again, turned on the coach that they won the Cup with. Some younger tough coach? Is there one? Does that guy exist in today's world?

This is a player's team. Not just Robitaille and Blake, but the actual active players.

They got Murray fired as well. Fortunately, Lombardi had Sutter on standby to whip them into shape.

 

[Fishhead]

I could turn around and paint a rosier picture too. I'm highlighting the most dramatic ones that are clearly impacted by coaching.

Yes, Martinez was only on for 2 ES goals against; 6 total. We've only allowed 7 goals. Stop handicapping the guy by putting him on his wrong side with a toxic partner in probably the worst-fit role for him. Or trade him.

The possession metrics are contextualized by past years. I don't expect us to be the worst in the league, but going from by far the best in the league to below-average at best with no real reason is bad. At first it was because we were eschewing shot volume to try more adventurous things (quality > quantity), but now it's simply because we're bleeding shots against because we can't get out of our zone.

There may be nowhere to go but up but if the answer is to play Kopitar like #1 dman and Doughty every other shift until they die that's not good coaching. I don't care about their contracts, whether they can handle it, etc., it's utter garbage all around. It takes a really poor coach to take a roster with such a high ceiling and suck the potential out of it. There's something clearly and completely wrong behind the decisions of just about every game situation I can imagine.

You nailed it with the deployment. I get that there’s not enough RHD, but M&M isn’t the only option. And if they are played together, what shouldn’t happen is rolling those two out against the oppositions best night in and night out. So tired of watching Martinez have to try and muscle the puck out on his backhand while the Scheifeles of the league are on top of him. It just doesn’t work and while they’ve done well to concede as few as they have, it’s not sustainable. There’s a huge mountain of data that shows that pairing isn’t viable. For god’s sake, try something else.

Sutter used to make some questionable decisions, but they were for a reason. They were meant to motivate a certain player or for a certain situation, but there was always a meaning or reason for it. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it blew up, but there was a clear goal in mind. I get the sense that Stevens is lost in this regard with no real driving force behind his decision making. It’s the reason there are so many remarks about team identity here, a team isn’t going to have one if the coach doesn’t. Stevens makes a great assistant because he’s a talented guy who the players like and identify with. Head coaches need that “bad cop” and “my way or the highway mentality”, and he doesn’t have that.

 

[mrkolice]

i have a theory about stevens and his coaching style. probably i'm dead wrong here, but still.

i think that he's deliberately trying to slowly "transfer" a part of decision-making process onto the veteran players. sutter was stylewise a fascist who castrated every attempt of players aiming for an artistic self-realization, and that's the legacy stevens still tries to correct without sacrificing the core values of the team. the team identity is - step by step - moving towards more creative plays.

now, kovy fits such role perfectly and from what i saw he is a huge upgrade. also, toi so far might be explained by such logic, it's only a few games and the veterans engines, touch & feel are the priority. if i'm correct toi distribution should normalize after 10-15 games. amadio will get a better opportunity. and so on.

lak has a potential to become a high-scoring team & think that's a big part of coaching vision right now. but first things first.

 

[Fishhead]

They got a coach's coach fired already, and that was after winning 2 Cups with him. What non-player's coach is coming in here to dictate what happens? The players have won, and most have their big contract cemented. Name the coach that would have their respect. Maybe gruffy Quenneville? They beat his team in the last important game they played against each other though, and again, turned on the coach that they won the Cup with. Some younger tough coach? Is there one? Does that guy exist in today's world?

This is a player's team. Not just Robitaille and Blake, but the actual active players.

I don’t think it needs to be a Keenan type or strict disciplinarian, but definitely someone who has a vision and a clear focus. Right now, I don’t see a identity and that goes back to last year. They can say the goal is the Stanley Cup, ok yeah every team says that. You know what you are getting with a Terry Murray. A guy who has the patience to work with younger players and who will emphasize sound defensive play. It’s even more clear with Sutter. He’s a hard-ass you don’t cross who requires you to play a very specific way or you’ll be benched. He gets you to go through a wall for the guy in the locker next to you. He doesn’t give a shit if he gets fired and while the players sometimes resent his methods, he has 100% of their respect. Short shelf life because of his methods. I have no idea what you get from John Stevens.

In my eyes, the ideal coach for this roster is someone who leaves no doubt he’s the final authority. You can bring a team together and get them playing as a unit without being an asshole. One who has a system with a clear focus and vision, but allows players to read plays and make decisions instead of “go to this spot”. I put the coaching shortcomings squarely on Blake and Luc. Did Stevens deserve a chance? Probably, but I think their coaching search was lazy.