OT: Generational Players

[Bombshell11]

We should change the player ranking system to something like this

GOATs: Gretzky, Lemieux
The Myths: Ovechkin, Orr, Richard... people who did something really unique, out of this world
The Legends: Crosby, Roy, Bossy level
Generational: People who were special during their time
Franchise
Elites

We have 0 generational players on the team or pipeline. Accept the obvious truth.

Why would you discount Demidov?

 

[Gravity]

We should change the player ranking system to something like this

GOATs: Gretzky, Lemieux
The Myths: Ovechkin, Orr, Richard... people who did something really unique, out of this world
The Legends: Crosby, Roy, Bossy level
Generational: People who were special during their time
Franchise
Elites



Why would you discount Demidov?

Because I'm pragmatic. There's two generational players in the NHL atm: McDavid and Makar. That's it.

 

[Bigtrout]

I think Demidov's best case scenario is Malkin esque level of dominance, and nobody would call him generational

 

[Bombshell11]

Because I'm pragmatic. There's two generational players in the NHL atm: McDavid and Makar. That's it.

You have yet to see Demidov in the NHL or NA... he's trashing the KHL at 19

Lets see i guess

 

[Jurivan Demidovsky]

We have 0 generational players on the team or pipeline. Accept the obvious truth.

Hutson is "generational" his stats and rookie records already attest to that.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We should change the player ranking system to something like this

GOATs: Gretzky, Lemieux
The Myths: Ovechkin, Orr, Richard... people who did something really unique, out of this world
The Legends: Crosby, Roy, Bossy level
Generational: People who were special during their time
Franchise
Elites



Why would you discount Demidov?

Rocket Richard and Howe would be generational. The league had never seen anything like Richard before. He became the league’s all time points and goals leader. And then Howe did the same. Generational for sure.

Harvey also qualifies. Best defenseman in the league for a good decade. Revolutionized the position. Same with Bobby Orr.

Bobby Hull might qualify. He’s a top ten player. Guy Lafleur was borderline. Six straight 50/100 season had never been done.

Hasek I think is probably the greatest goalie ever and only got started around age 28.

I think the following players qualify: Richard, Howe, Harvey, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid.

Borderline; Hull (would probably be universally considered generational if he didn’t jump to the WHA.) Lafleur, Bossy, Jagr, Lidstrom. There’s a special argument I’d make for Steve Yzerman as well - but I’ll make that in another post. He largely isn’t considered generational but there’s a case to be made that he should be.

Goalies are really tough to say. Ken Dryden has maybe the best resume of any player ever but he gets flack for being part of a superb team while his earlier accomplishments don’t garner enough credit. I would say Plante but every older i ever talked with said Terry Sawchuk. The numbers for goalies are so fight it’s tough to say. Personally, I think Patrick Roy is overrated but he’s considered by many to be the best ever.

 

[waitin425]

Rocket Richard and Howe would be generational. The league had never seen anything like Richard before. He became the league’s all time points and goals leader. And then Howe did the same. Generational for sure.

Harvey also qualifies. Best defenseman in the league for a good decade. Revolutionized the position. Same with Bobby Orr.

Bobby Hull might qualify. He’s a top ten player. Guy Lafleur was borderline. Six straight 50/100 season had never been done.

Hasek I think is probably the greatest goalie ever and only got started around age 28.

I think the following players qualify: Richard, Howe, Harvey, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid.

Borderline; Hull (would probably be universally considered generational if he didn’t jump to the WHA.) Lafleur, Bossy, Jagr, Lidstrom. There’s a special argument I’d make for Steve Yzerman as well - but I’ll make that in another post. He largely isn’t considered generational but there’s a case to be made that he should be.

Goalies are really tough to say. Ken Dryden has maybe the best resume of any player ever but he gets flack for being part of a superb team while his earlier accomplishments don’t garner enough credit. I would say Plante but every older i ever talked with said Terry Sawchuk. The numbers for goalies are so fight it’s tough to say. Personally, I think Patrick Roy is overrated but he’s considered by many to be the best ever.

Solid! Same players as me in the Generational category. I bumped Lidstrom into it as well, and included Roy. I reached far back in time to include Howie Morenz and Newsy Lalonde. But no one is alive today to confirm those two!

Toyed with Jagr, Lafleur and Bossy, but they just didn't make it for me. I'm interested in your Yzerman argument, I see him down a level from Jagr, Lafleur and Bossy.....but would love to know.

The last piece.....is all the Russian greats before they started coming over. Any generational names we can pull out of there? Tretiak? Kharlamov?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Solid! Same players as me in the Generational category. I bumped Lidstrom into it as well, and included Roy. I reached far back in time to include Howie Morenz and Newsy Lalonde. But no one is alive today to confirm those two!

Toyed with Jagr, Lafleur and Bossy, but they just didn't make it for me. I'm interested in your Yzerman argument, I see him down a level from Jagr, Lafleur and Bossy.....but would love to know.

The last piece.....is all the Russian greats before they started coming over. Any generational names we can pull out of there? Tretiak? Kharlamov?

If you’re going back that far, Morenz qualifies as does Eddie Shore.

I wrote out the interesting case of Yzerman a while back. I’ll find it and cut and paste. Very briefly though, he played in the shadow of two greats. Without them there he’d be the best player in hockey over a six year period. Not every year but over that time. He was insanely good and did it on horrible teams. Then he got hurt and was never really the same again.

I won’t argue he’s generational but take a look at him and Hasek. They’re in the same draft. Hasek is dominant for about six years in his career. By the time he gets started, Yzerman’s already had a HOF career and is just starting to win cups with those powerhouse clubs. Who would you rather have? I’d say Yzerman had the better career. Yzerman comes within like five goals in one season of cracking the 6 straight 50/100 club. Not only did he put up points, he was one of the best goal scorers in the league. That is Guy Lafleur like only he does it on horrible teams. His playoff resume isn’t close to as good during that time though.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Solid! Same players as me in the Generational category. I bumped Lidstrom into it as well, and included Roy. I reached far back in time to include Howie Morenz and Newsy Lalonde. But no one is alive today to confirm those two!

Toyed with Jagr, Lafleur and Bossy, but they just didn't make it for me. I'm interested in your Yzerman argument, I see him down a level from Jagr, Lafleur and Bossy.....but would love to know.

The last piece.....is all the Russian greats before they started coming over. Any generational names we can pull out of there? Tretiak? Kharlamov?

Tretiak and Kharlamov easily, arguably Makarov also

 

[waitin425]

Tretiak and Kharlamov easily, arguably Makarov also

Russians pre-coming to NA are often forgotten in generational talks.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Russians pre-coming to NA are often forgotten in generational talks.

Makarov is arguably the greatest winger to ever play

I should have reversed Makarov and Kharlamov in my previous post

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Tretiak and Kharlamov easily, arguably Makarov also

Could absolutely be true. But there’s not enough to say.

 

[Anardil]

Gretzky and Mario would score far less, that is an indisputable fact. The fact that you are implying that it was harder to score in the Eighties and early 90's is laughable and entirely refuted by the facts.

Gretzky, Orr and Mario were great players and would be in any generation but McDavid is absolutely on par with them imo. I watched Wayne and Mario's entire careers including before they were drafted and their stats were inflated by playing in a watered down league with terrible goalies and poor defensive systems. Perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the scoring leaders and the top goalies stats lol. You are simply arguing solely from bias and have zero evidence to support your claim.

Gretzky would struggle the most out of the three that I mentioned as he did not have the speed or physicality that the others brought. Gretzky took advantage of absurdly poor competition and was in the right place at the right time. He would still be a great player but if you think Gretzky would be anywhere remotely close to 200 points in today's NHL you are putting forth a delusional narrative.

I did not say anything that you implied. You ignored several important factors that I stated.

Give McDavid the wood sticks, the skates, the scientific knowledge of the late 70s and 80s. Christ man, players used training camp to GET INTO shape. Players today have to show up at camp in game ready shape.

Take away the modern advantages that McDavid has, and we would see a different player. IMHO, he would slot in as a Yzerman/Sakic level player. Still a great player. He would have to face a much tougher league as well. He would have to deal with all the hooking holding etc, that would make what Garland did to him a few days ago a walk in the park.

 

[DAChampion]

What some players can do in their late 30s is arguably more impressive than what they did in their prime.

Sidney Crosby, 37 years old, 58 points in 55 games
Alexander Ovechkin, 39 years old, 43 points in 39 games
Wayne Gretzky, 38 years old, 62 points in 70 games
Mario Lemieux, 38 years old, 91 points in 67 games
Jaromir Jagr, 43 years old, 66 points in 79 games
Niklas Lidstrom, 40 years old, 62 points in 82 games

How can anyone not be in awe?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I think Mario and Jagr were generational talent and would rule today as well. Gretzky was over protected by McSorley and Semenko. Bossy used to say (8 years ago) Gretz was an easy player to check. He was at some place to make perfect passes, static, an easy player to check. Other players were not allowed to make a simple check on Gretz, or have the visit of Semenko just after.

Mario didn't have that protection. He scored goals with a player hooked on his back, he had to fight sometimes. Imagine the very best players of the 50's to 70's who made room for themselves in that hard played sport of hooking and poor refering. That means all the Gordy Howe, Maurice Richard, Stan Mikita, Bélveau, Orr, Esposito, Cournoyer, Tkachuck, Middleton, Bobby Hull, Lafleur, Cam Neely, Brett Hull and Mark Messier would be on top today. Even Dino Ciccarelli would be somewhere in the pts list. Imagine the slapshot of Richer with today's stick or the Bobby Hull Slap. All the players mentioned would challenge Pastrnak, Point, Kucherov, Panarin, Ovy, McDavid and Crosby. Denis Savard in his prime and Connor Bedard isn't the same?

But take into consideration the new training, nutrition, sticks and equipment technology and no hooking (but Newhook but that's a different story). In 1960 a player had to carry 40 lbs more of heavy and wet equipment that was unconfortable and the blades were ridiculous technology compared with today. That means the very best players of that time were real warriors with a tough mental.

 

[Vachon23]

I think Demidov's best case scenario is Malkin esque level of dominance, and nobody would call him generational

I wouldn’t put Demidov in the same sentence then Malkin. Malkin is a hart trophy winner who was in the top 3 player in the league in his prime behind 2 legends

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I did not say anything that you implied. You ignored several important factors that I stated.

Give McDavid the wood sticks, the skates, the scientific knowledge of the late 70s and 80s. Christ man, players used training camp to GET INTO shape. Players today have to show up at camp in game ready shape.

Take away the modern advantages that McDavid has, and we would see a different player. IMHO, he would slot in as a Yzerman/Sakic level player. Still a great player. He would have to face a much tougher league as well. He would have to deal with all the hooking holding etc, that would make what Garland did to him a few days ago a walk in the park.

You just don't get it. No matter the perceived advantages, there is so little time and space nowadays, the hockey IQ needed is much higher. The speed it was played at was much lower, meaning very few players would be able to catch up to him to hold and hook and check. Forget the wood sticks and skates as an excuse as goal scoring was much higher back then. Your logic doesn't hold. Goalies were terribad, and once Lemieux and Gretzky started playing with composite sticks (they didn't play with wood sticks their entire careers, a fallacy, and wood stick tech between 85 and 95 was much better than before because of fibreglass, and then they got aluminium and graphite), the offense was so high in 92-93, they had to augment goalie equipment size afterward.

People are so in love with the past. Your conclusion fits that mold to a t.

 

[Bigtrout]

I wouldn’t put Demidov in the same sentence then Malkin. Malkin is a hart trophy winner who was in the top 3 player in the league in his prime behind 2 legends

Which is why I said ''best case scenario''. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities for him but what I'm hoping for is around Kaprisov's level.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

I think Mario and Jagr were generational talent and would rule today as well. Gretzky was over protected by McSorley and Semenko. Bossy used to say (8 years ago) Gretz was an easy player to check. He was at some place to make perfect passes, static, an easy player to check. Other players were not allowed to make a simple check on Gretz, or have the visit of Semenko just after.

This narrative is such nonsense

Nobody hit Gretzky because there was a chance of a fight happening? Thank god fights never happened for any other reason

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

This narrative is such nonsense

Nobody hit Gretzky because there was a chance of a fight happening? Thank god fights never happened for any other reason

That narrative comes from players of that era, that's not me.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

That narrative comes from players of that era, that's not me.

It’s called cope

 

[Ozmodiar]

I chuckle at the “Gretzky would never …” narratives.

Accounting for PPG across eras, he had 4 seasons better than McDavid’s best.

Season after season, he destroyed the competition in the points race. He had elite edge-work at the time, an excellent shot, and elite/unmatched vision and passing which transcends time.

… we just watched Crosby get 3 points against all-stars and future HOF’ers who looked ordinary. How did he do it? On each assist, he mapped out the play well in advance. He knew how to manipulate the D and where his teammates would be. Gretzky did this every night.