OT: General Video Game Discussion VII

[Swervin81]

Does the Final Fantasy series have a game to game narrative or is it something I could just drop into at any point because they're all self contained stories?

Game to game.

 

[Avder]

Crap, that means I'll have to start at game 1 or I'm gonna hate myself.

And the active battle stuff doesn't show up until 4.

I don't think I have the patience for that. Blah.

Anyway I'm thinking I'll finally get around to playing the Mass Effect Trilogy before I think of other games to play.

 

[Vashanesh]

Does the Final Fantasy series have a game to game narrative or is it something I could just drop into at any point because they're all self contained stories?

Game to game.

Clarification: There is no continuous story from one game to the next, until you get to FFX-2. Up until then, they are all 100% self-contained stories with new worlds, new characters, etc.

There are themes that carry over, but there's no real value to playing the early games unless you really want to. FF4 and FF6 are the best of the SNES generation, with 6 being better. 5 is OK, but lags behind, IMO.

Edit: With regard to the ME series. I'm not a fan of Bioware's formula, but I don't think those games will hold up well at all. ME1 was VERY rough, with a lot of time wasting, repetitious mission types. ME2 fixed a lot of those issues, but still drug on too long and I didn't touch 3 after the first two. The complaints about the ending are very well reported, and while they tried to fix it, I've still heard it's subpar.

 

[tyratoku]

Does the Final Fantasy series have a game to game narrative or is it something I could just drop into at any point because they're all self contained stories?

They are mostly self contained. There are references and random cameos of some characters but for the most part they are all separate from each other.

However, the last few games have had side-games/companion games that go together. Like Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2, for example. Each mainline game is it's own thing, but when they want to actually do a direct sequel or off-shoot they use some other clever naming convention.

Anyway I'm thinking I'll finally get around to playing the Mass Effect Trilogy before I think of other games to play.

Really good series right there. The first one has a few really convoluted systems to it (mainly the loot/grinding stuff where you end up with 200 different shotguns or assault rifles that are only marginally different from each other, along with planet exploration/side quest bs), but the second one tightens up a lot of stuff in good ways and the series as a whole benefits from it.

It's also one long overarching story where your choices and decisions carry over from one game to the next, for better or worse.

 

[llamapalooza]

Dissenting opinion: Mass Effect aged really, really poorly, and as someone who attempted to play it for the first time last year I found it so outdated that it was unplayable. I think the vast majority of people who really liked Mass Effect played it right on release, and if you didn't have that experience you probably won't find it nearly as special as everyone who hypes it.

By all means give it a try--I know I'm in the minority here--but personally I can't recommend it to anyone who didn't experience it the first time around.

 

[llamapalooza]

I think they knew that and that's why they didn't. They didn't want to lose that much revenue from people taking advantage of the promotion with those particular games.

Yeah, that's precisely right. In fact, I'm guessing they're expecting a lot of people (like myself!) to come in for exactly two games, with the third free game serving as a way to (A) clear out old inventory and (B) rope people into buying two games on release date when they might otherwise go to Gamestop or Amazon or buy digitally or what have you.

 

[Avder]

Dissenting opinion: Mass Effect aged really, really poorly, and as someone who attempted to play it for the first time last year I found it so outdated that it was unplayable. I think the vast majority of people who really liked Mass Effect played it right on release, and if you didn't have that experience you probably won't find it nearly as special as everyone who hypes it.

By all means give it a try--I know I'm in the minority here--but personally I can't recommend it to anyone who didn't experience it the first time around.

Well considering I live like 5 years behind what's current in gaming I should be in for a jolly good time then.

 

[Vashanesh]

Well considering I live like 5 years behind what's current in gaming I should be in for a jolly good time then.

Prep your patience.

ME1 is just a very rough game. Very ambitious, but they overshot, pretty heavily.

Really, frankly, I can't recommend playing Mass Effect, though. Unless you're a die-hard fan of Bioware and their games around the same time (Dragon Age: Origin, for example). I'd say you'd have more fun reading a thorough wiki of the plot. And you'd save 125ish hours.

 

[Avder]

Prep your patience.

ME1 is just a very rough game. Very ambitious, but they overshot, pretty heavily.

Really, frankly, I can't recommend playing Mass Effect, though. Unless you're a die-hard fan of Bioware and their games around the same time (Dragon Age: Origin, for example). I'd say you'd have more fun reading a thorough wiki of the plot. And you'd save 125ish hours.

It's a long enough game that it can kill 125 hours?

Perfect!

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

I think they're all great...ME 2 probably my favorite but didn't hate the first one either. Loved Dragon Age Origins, and can't wait for the 3rd one next week. Don't listen to this guy

No, it's just for some people and not for some. Hard to say if you'll like it or not without trying it out.

 

[llamapalooza]

Well considering I live like 5 years behind what's current in gaming I should be in for a jolly good time then.

I'm very curious what you think. There are truly classic games that age really well, that you can enjoy for the first time even today. Think Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, Halo, Mario 3, Mario Galaxy, Chrono Trigger, certain Final Fantasy games, Wind Waker, Okami, etc.

But at its core, I didn't get the impression that Mass Effect had the foundation of good design (in any respect--art design, gameplay mechanics, or level design) needed to withstand the test of time like those classics did. All it seemed to really have going for it was technical achievement (which is guaranteed to be irrelevant even before the end of the same generation) and apparently writing (though I didn't get far enough to judge that one way or another).

 

[Vashanesh]

It's a long enough game that it can kill 125 hours?

Perfect!

The series will take that long, if not longer.

I think they're all great...ME 2 probably my favorite but didn't hate the first one either. Loved Dragon Age Origins, and can't wait for the 3rd one next week. Don't listen to this guy

No, it's just for some people and not for some. Hard to say if you'll like it or not without trying it out.

Perfect example, thank you! DA:O was also a frustrating game with massive pacing issues.

I will say again, I don't like Bioware's formula. All the nonsense of "player choice" that just boils down to are you a jerk or a nice guy and dialog trees that you spend more time in than you do playing the actual game. There are a few big choices that carry over, but I felt like they were all relatively minor (again, counting that I haven't played the 3rd game).

Also, knowing how the ending was dealt with? Player choice should not have been talked up as much as it was.

Meh, I wish there was a way to see if you like Bioware's game without sinking 40 hours into a game and THEN deciding if you enjoyed the ride or felt like it was a waste of time.

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

Yeah, I like a lot of dialog and the fact that they had a game where your character actually spoke the things that you chose was pretty awesome. I didn't think of it like that, though, that part of what made the games so great was their achievements at the time they came out. That's probably a little true, but I think they still would hold up. I just thought all the characters and story were so great throughout that it would hold up for me.

 

[Avder]

If a series is engaging enough to keep me occupied for 125 hours, I'm probably going to be satisfied with it.

I'll probably start on it tomorrow after I get home.

 

[Vashanesh]

Yeah, I like a lot of dialog and the fact that they had a game where your character actually spoke the things that you chose was pretty awesome. I didn't think of it like that, though, that part of what made the games so great was their achievements at the time they came out. That's probably a little true, but I think they still would hold up. I just thought all the characters and story were so great throughout that it would hold up for me.

I felt the dialog was too frequent and far too binary. I also felt like the characters were super thin and archetypal to a fault.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess! If I'm honest, I wish I could've enjoyed the series, because I love high sci-fi that goes so far into universe building. But I felt like it was a great story held back by the confines of the game it was put into.

Maybe I've been spoiled because I was reading Game of Thrones around the same time, and wanted characters with depth and motivation to the degree that GRRM presents his, and I just had my expectations too high? I like to think that games can tell stories on par with a good book, and I thought that Bioware was too restrictive on how they told their story.

I don't want to get spoilery in case Avder does go ahead and play the series, so I'm going to spoiler tag this next bit:

[spoil]My best example is how often you were speaking directly to the "bad guys". Bad guys, ESPECIALLY something as deep as the Reapers, shouldn't give two ***** about you. They're ancient creatures bent on destruction on a scale that the human mind can't even put into perspective. Why would they give a flying **** about ONE person who wants to stop them? On that same thread, why would Saren care about Shepard? Not only was he supposed to be xenophobic to a fault, but he had plans so much bigger than Shepard... Why would he even consider LOOKING at Shepard, let alone going off on these long-winded expositions explaining things. It felt lazy as hell.[/spoil]

 

[Avder]

Thanks for spoilering that so I can't read it without wanting to.

I genuinely appreciate that! I hate it when crap gets spoiled for me.

 

[Vashanesh]

Thanks for spoilering that so I can't read it without wanting to.

I genuinely appreciate that! I hate it when crap gets spoiled for me.

It's a hell of a ride, my complaints entirely aside. I wouldn't want to take that from anyone.

If we keep talking about it, I'll do my best to keep my complaints technical, and nothing more.

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

Hey, civil disagreement! Great stuff

My thing, though, is that I like almost everything Just not too critical a person in general. As I get a little older I think it's starting to creep in a little bit more (the critiques)

 

[Avder]

Hey, civil disagreement! Great stuff

My thing, though, is that I like almost everything Just not too critical a person in general. As I get a little older I think it's starting to creep in a little bit more (the critiques)

I'm just bitter that new games now are so friggin easy.

[old man voice]
Back in my day, they gave you three lives and you had to get through all 50 levels with them or you had to start over! You young whipper snappers today have it easy with your infinite lives and regenerating HP's!

Get off my pixelated lawn!
[/old man voice]

And yeah, I mean that. Kids playing games today are like kids jumping happily on marshmallows that get rewarded with CGI eyegasms for pushing the same button a couple hundred times in no particular order.

Meanwhile I had to throw myself repeatedly at a brick wall with a catapult using a difficult to remember specific button sequence to get a pixelated "thank you for playing!" and it was literally more rewarding than most games today because you actually accomplished something.

 

[Vashanesh]

Hey, civil disagreement! Great stuff

My thing, though, is that I like almost everything Just not too critical a person in general. As I get a little older I think it's starting to creep in a little bit more (the critiques)

Agreed!

But, there's where we're different! I'm a crotchety *******, and if something rubs me the wrong way, it can sully an entire experience. I've read a lot of good, great and awful books. And I've played a lot of good, a few great and a LOT of awful games. I think that's why I nitpick so much. I have my few favorites, and everything is held to that same standard.

Probably not fair to do, but that's my thought process.

I think the point that I couldn't overlook was the swing in the story. They hired a few writers to put together this massive, sprawling story... And then 2/3rds of the way through development of the story (about halfway through ME2 from what I remember?), they got rid of the lead writer.

I was prepared to look at it as a unique story (with flawed presentation, but oh well), but there were increasingly glaring problems with the plot, too.

 

[Vashanesh]

I'm just bitter that new games now are so friggin easy.

[old man voice]
Back in my day, they gave you three lives and you had to get through all 50 levels with them or you had to start over! You young whipper snappers today have it easy with your infinite lives and regenerating HP's!

Get off my pixelated lawn!
[/old man voice]

And yeah, I mean that. Kids playing games today are like kids jumping happily on marshmallows that get rewarded with CGI eyegasms for pushing the same button a couple hundred times in no particular order.

Meanwhile I had to throw myself repeatedly at a brick wall with a catapult using a difficult to remember specific button sequence to get a pixelated "thank you for playing!" and it was literally more rewarding than most games today because you actually accomplished something.

Have you played Demon's Souls/Dark Souls?

Those games are too tough for my grumpy old self, but I've got a few friends that just SWEAR that Dark Souls was one of the best games of the last generation.

 

[Avder]

Have you played Demon's Souls/Dark Souls?

Those games are too tough for my grumpy old self, but I've got a few friends that just SWEAR that Dark Souls was one of the best games of the last generation.

Here's my experience with two games considered to be ultra hard:

I have beaten Battletoads legitimately, on the actual console, and can do so at will.

I have never beaten Ninja Gaiden I on the NES legitimately. Nor could I beat it by savestating myself back to the start of the final stage upon death. I had to savestate to the start of each of the three phases of the final boss fight and even then it was a ***** to win.

And no I've never played those two games. I don't even own a 360/one or PS3/4.

Are they available for PC?

 

[Vashanesh]

Here's my experience with two games considered to be ultra hard:

I have beaten Battletoads legitimately, on the actual console, and can do so at will.

I have never beaten Ninja Gaiden I on the NES. Nor could I beat it by savestating myself back to the start of the final stage upon death. I had to savestate to the start of each of the three phases of the final boss fight and even then it was a ***** to win.

And no I've never played those two games. I don't even own a 360/one or PS3/4.

Are they available for PC?

Hey, I beat Battletoads, too! Me and my cousin, back when we were like... 11? We spent an entire week on that and that TMNT game that was supposedly impossible. Beat 'em both.

Dark Souls 1 and 2 are both available for PC. If you're interested, I would strongly recommend playing with a controller if possible.

The games just leave no margin for error. Every single enemy can kill you if you're not very careful. It's got that old school vibe of needing to learn patterns, not letting yourself get surrounded, don't over-extend just because you think you're starting to understand... etc.

If I didn't have a kid, and had plenty of free time, I'd love to give 1 another try. The few hours I played did have that rewarding feel of "I know what to do to get through this part, and then if I dodge the archer here, I can get around to that guy, and avoid this guy because he'll just kill me, and there's a trap here..." over and over and over.

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

Ninja Gaiden for Xbox might be the hardest game I've ever played...and I beat it on normal.

 

[Avder]

Hey, I beat Battletoads, too! Me and my cousin, back when we were like... 11? We spent an entire week on that and that TMNT game that was supposedly impossible. Beat 'em both.

Dark Souls 1 and 2 are both available for PC. If you're interested, I would strongly recommend playing with a controller if possible.

The games just leave no margin for error. Every single enemy can kill you if you're not very careful. It's got that old school vibe of needing to learn patterns, not letting yourself get surrounded, don't over-extend just because you think you're starting to understand... etc.

If I didn't have a kid, and had plenty of free time, I'd love to give 1 another try. The few hours I played did have that rewarding feel of "I know what to do to get through this part, and then if I dodge the archer here, I can get around to that guy, and avoid this guy because he'll just kill me, and there's a trap here..." over and over and over.

Is Dark Souls a first person shooter? If so I'll be playing keyboard and mouse. I can not stand playing FPS games with a controller.