Salary Cap: Garbage Day collection comes early!

[molon labe]

Seriously head scratching stuff by this organization. The absolute bipolar identity continues.

Why keep Malkin and Letang prior to Dubas? Why bring in Dubas at all? Why sign Jarry/Graves to deals? Why Eller if not to be flipped for draft picks? Why trade Guentzel for a roster player instead of strictly draft picks?

The consensus by everyone including some of our genius media talking heads is a balance of win now and stock the cupboard - but outside of Karlsson and later Bunting - all the other moves are not 'win now' pieces at all. I get that Sullivan is hot trash at player evaluation but I mean - the contracts and targets we've had make zero sense.

Sell, or buy. Where in the hell does Hayes fit in? If we were straight tanking, sure. But the in between stuff? Taking on 2 years of him in the final hour of Sid/Geno is sort of disrespectful IF the goal is to win with those two. If it's not (how can anyone think it is with the marriage to Sullivan) - then why keep them? The best Sid is the Sid in pursuit of victory. Why even offer an extension? This team hasn't made sense in years. Strange addiction to keep I guess.

 

[Gurglesons]

Comparing the NHL draft in 1983 and 2003 to today is a reach.

Team’s do not become competitive by only rebuilding. Vegas and Florida barely built through the draft.

You have to have a competitive advantage in this league, I’m not sure exactly what Dubas’ is right now with this team.

Seriously head scratching stuff by this organization. The absolute bipolar identity continues.

Why keep Malkin and Letang prior to Dubas? Why bring in Dubas at all? Why sign Jarry/Graves to deals? Why Eller if not to be flipped for draft picks? Why trade Guentzel for a roster player instead of strictly draft picks?

The consensus by everyone including some of our genius media talking heads is a balance of win now and stock the cupboard - but outside of Karlsson and later Bunting - all the other moves are not 'win now' pieces at all. I get that Sullivan is hot trash at player evaluation but I mean - the contracts and targets we've had make zero sense.

Sell, or buy. Where in the hell does Hayes fit in? If we were straight tanking, sure. But the in between stuff? Taking on 2 years of him in the final hour of Sid/Geno is sort of disrespectful IF the goal is to win with those two. If it's not (how can anyone think it is with the marriage to Sullivan) - then why keep them? The best Sid is the Sid in pursuit of victory. Why even offer an extension? This team hasn't made sense in years. Strange addiction to keep I guess.

Wouldn’t shock me to see said walk next year. Doubt it happens, but wouldn’t shock me at all.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

Surprised there were no takers for Smith. Worse or equal players to Smith were traded away the last few days. Plus he has that ‘Cup pedigree’ thing that GM’s slobber over.

 

[Turin]

Surprised there were no takers for Smith. Worse or equal players to Smith were traded away the last few days. Plus he has that ‘Cup pedigree’ thing that GM’s slobber over.

Still time, I don’t think they’re really prioritizing this years draft.

 

[molon labe]

It's called a retool.

Guentzel was selling off a asset they were not going to be able re-sign. The Pens re-signing Crosby, Malkin and Letang, plus adding a 10.0 Karlsson means they are not rebuilding, they're retooling.

Adding Hayes with a 2nd attached is retooling while adding draft capital. But that also is not rebuilding.

Rebuilding is selling off all top expensive contracts worth draft/prospect capital. Teams still need to meet the cap floor and will still carry heavy contracts.

People confusing retool with tanking.

We don't have a team worth retooling. Period. The addition of Hayes is not an addition at all. I genuinely think fans HERE, and our media just think of the guy who [undeservedly] got 7M. He stinks. He stood out as slow on a slow Blues team. Carter would lap him - no sarcasm - in both goal scoring ability at 40 years old and both straight line and lateral speed. He's also not physical at all. He's not an addition. Everyone pointed to the 3M Carter had as something that hindered this team, well - hold on to your butts.

I don't think anyone is confusing the two [rebuild/retool]. They are confusing the approach to whatever the hell Sullivan is calling this. If you want draft picks - sell players for picks. If you want to retool - move pieces that don't fit for pieces that MIGHT fit. Starting next year we literally have 90% of our draft picks. You don't have to force your hand at getting more. If you want them, and you want to tear it down - start moving pieces and getting smart. But this isn't putting toes in or out it's just a cowardly approach to be frank.

Comparing the NHL draft in 1983 and 2003 to today is a reach.

Team’s do not become competitive by only rebuilding. Vegas and Florida barely built through the draft.

You have to have a competitive advantage in this league, I’m not sure exactly what Dubas’ is right now with this team.



Wouldn’t shock me to see said walk next year. Doubt it happens, but wouldn’t shock me at all.

Salary cap. Biggest weapon and always has been. Vegas is so good at theirs. Florida - even with what seemed to be a death sentence in Bob were good with theirs. Also helped that Florida used their eyeballs on Tkachuk and Bennett where everyone else himmed and hawed. Damn I wish that Guentzel/Tkachuk trade hypothetical was a reality. Alas.

 

[Ryder71]

People confusing retool with tanking.

I usually agree with you but not here. They are tanking, they're just not making it as obvious because they have duh dinosaurs and have to appease the clueless STH's. But they're rebuilding.

 

[Andy99]

Surprised there were no takers for Smith. Worse or equal players to Smith were traded away the last few days. Plus he has that ‘Cup pedigree’ thing that GM’s slobber over.

He makes $5M…there are better players that can be signed in FA for that money…if you’re a good team, you won’t want him and have a lack of cap space, and if you’re a team with a lot of money and aren’t very good, like Chicago, you’ll take him only if the Pens give them a 2nd like we got for Hayes….the only way he’s moved is if there are teams after FA who don’t get players they want and have the cap space….going to be tough…I think he’ll be easier moved at the TDL

 

[Ryder71]

Seriously head scratching stuff by this organization. The absolute bipolar identity continues.

Why keep Malkin and Letang prior to Dubas? Why bring in Dubas at all? Why sign Jarry/Graves to deals? Why Eller if not to be flipped for draft picks? Why trade Guentzel for a roster player instead of strictly draft picks?

The consensus by everyone including some of our genius media talking heads is a balance of win now and stock the cupboard - but outside of Karlsson and later Bunting - all the other moves are not 'win now' pieces at all. I get that Sullivan is hot trash at player evaluation but I mean - the contracts and targets we've had make zero sense.

Sell, or buy. Where in the hell does Hayes fit in? If we were straight tanking, sure. But the in between stuff? Taking on 2 years of him in the final hour of Sid/Geno is sort of disrespectful IF the goal is to win with those two. If it's not (how can anyone think it is with the marriage to Sullivan) - then why keep them? The best Sid is the Sid in pursuit of victory. Why even offer an extension? This team hasn't made sense in years. Strange addiction to keep I guess.

What they are doing really isn't all that hard to figure out. We are tanking, we're just trying to not make it so obvious. And maybe if some of these parts fit well, maybe we'll be in the race until the very end to keep the masses interested long enough to show up for games.

 

[molon labe]

What they are doing really isn't all that hard to figure out. We are tanking, we're just trying to not make it so obvious. And maybe if some of these parts fit well, maybe we'll be in the race until the very end to keep the masses interested long enough to show up for games.

Karlsson, Malkin, Letang, Rust, Bunting all have tremendous value at retention.

Pettersson has value flat out.

Sid could pick a single destination and still get a first round pick at full cap hit for 1 year. Probably two.

That's tanking with purpose. Tanking in the box score? Sure, we suck and will continue to suck. This team is the same team year in and out but older and in a better and more competitive division/conference. We're just going to suck without any of the rewards of sucking.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

I usually agree with you but not here. They are tanking, they're just not making it as obvious because they have duh dinosaurs and have to appease the clueless STH's. But they're rebuilding.

I actually got a call a couple of weeks ago from the ticket office. I haven't had season tickets since 2018, and this was the first time the team has reached out about tickets. I think the STH base is shrinking.

My first question was "is Mike Sullivan still the coach," and when she said yes, I said "then no thanks."

I don't even live in Pittsburgh anymore, but she didn't have to know.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

People confusing retool with tanking.

Retooling to what end exactly?

A lottery pick chance at a Cup?

They ain't retooling in the traditional sense.

They are keeping competitive enough to give the core a dignified end to their careers.

Tell me that I am wrong about their chances with any reasonable likely moves. Hell, fire Sully too if you want. Will it make them a legit top contender?

 

[Ryder71]

Karlsson, Malkin, Letang, Rust, Bunting all have tremendous value at retention.

Pettersson has value flat out.

Sid could pick a single destination and still get a first round pick at full cap hit for 1 year. Probably two.

That's tanking with purpose. Tanking in the box score? Sure, we suck and will continue to suck. This team is the same team year in and out but older and in a better and more competitive division/conference. We're just going to suck without any of the rewards of sucking.

But you're not gonna trade Sid. So while I want it bad, it's not gonna happen. He'll retire a Penguin.

As far as other pieces being moved out beyond the core, I'm sure some will. Probably not Bunting though, we'll need an older guy to be here when in the youngins take over in a few years.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I actually got a call a couple of weeks ago from the ticket office. I haven't had season tickets since 2018, and this was the first time the team has reached out about tickets. I think the STH base is shrinking.

My first question was "is Mike Sullivan still the coach," and when she said yes, I said "then no thanks."

I don't even live in Pittsburgh anymore, but she didn't have to know.

I did too.

I gave my season tickets up after two decades. And the Pens have not made the playoffs since.

So, obviously their misses are my fault.

 

[Ryder71]

I did too.

I gave my season tickets up after two decades. And the Pens have not made the playoffs since.

So, obviously their misses are my fault.

You're ahead of the curve my man!

 

[molon labe]

But you're not gonna trade Sid. So while I want it bad, it's not gonna happen. He'll retire a Penguin.

As far as other pieces being moved out beyond the core, I'm sure some will. Probably not Bunting though, we'll need an older guy to be here when in the youngins take over in a few years.

If they picked that lane - fine. After what I've seen for the past few years of a seemingly groundhog front-office, I'm not holding my breath.

I'm expecting (fully) that July 1 we sign another offensively inept bottom-6 guy who can PK and a depth righy D. That's it. Maybe Smith gets moved.

They genuinely think they have a roster that can compete despite monumental evidence to the contrary... and I have zero doubts the organization and media will begin talking about Hayes in a positive light as if he's going to continue the push for that.

I'm not trying to particularly advocate one way or the other. I just think balancing both is unrealistic - and it seems quite dumb by the approach they've taken. They're not doing any of the three routes here well - at all (competing/both/rebuilding). Like, if they were competing by any serious sense then they would have made more than 1 single move last season and likely not kept Sullivan. If they were rebuilding they'd start selling and would have sold Eller/Ned/++ already (like last year).

 

[Darren McCord]

maybe if our coach gave Ty Smith a single stretch we would’ve seen more value there.

Interested to see if he gets a chance in. Carolina.

He won’t Carolina has way better prospects and probably aren’t interested in a project. His hope should be to move to a bottom feeder.

 

[Turin]

So it’s Yohe but he says…
Dubas was willing to move Jarry, but no teams were interested. What a surprise lol…
Same article, Yohe said Dubas was listening on Smith, but "had no dance partners." Not sure if that means nobody was interested, or, there may have been interest but just not what Dubas wanted in return.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5603511/2024/06/29/penguins-nhl-draft-trade-kyle-dubas/?source=emp_shared_article

Yohes only source is JR

 

[Ryder71]

If they picked that lane - fine. After what I've seen for the past few years of a seemingly groundhog front-office, I'm not holding my breath.

I'm expecting (fully) that July 1 we sign another offensively inept bottom-6 guy who can PK and a depth righy D. That's it. Maybe Smith gets moved.

They genuinely think they have a roster that can compete despite monumental evidence to the contrary... and I have zero doubts the organization and media will begin talking about Hayes in a positive light as if he's going to continue the push for that.

I'm not trying to particularly advocate one way or the other. I just think balancing both is unrealistic - and it seems quite dumb by the approach they've taken. They're not doing any of the three routes here well - at all (competing/both/rebuilding). Like, if they were competing by any serious sense then they would have made more than 1 single move last season and likely not kept Sullivan. If they were rebuilding they'd start selling and would have sold Eller/Ned/++ already (like last year).

They don't genuinely believe they can compete. Trading Jake and garnering picks and prospects suggests otherwise. But what are they gonna say? We suck, but pay 1000's of dollars anyhow for season tickets?

 

[SEALBound]

Pens also got lucky by being able to sign criminally underrated #1 defenseman Gonchar the year Sid was drafted.

I do feel like you can find those again. Pietrangelo and Hamilton come to mind. You just have to be willing to pay when the time comes. Vgk and NJ were.

So it’s Yohe but he says…
Dubas was willing to move Jarry, but no teams were interested. What a surprise lol…
Same article, Yohe said Dubas was listening on Smith, but "had no dance partners." Not sure if that means nobody was interested, or, there may have been interest but just not what Dubas wanted in return.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5603511/2024/06/29/penguins-nhl-draft-trade-kyle-dubas/?source=emp_shared_article

I think Smiths value will be on July 3 or 4th when teams are still looking to bolster the roster but missed on FAs. Trouble is, Dubas likely wanted a pick for him so value and deals might change. That said, there's no issue with keeping Smith. It's a whole new season and he's a UFA. He'll be playing for his next deal just like Zucker did and we'll reap the rewards. Having an extra top 6 LW right now is important because we don't necessarily know how FA will go.

Seriously head scratching stuff by this organization. The absolute bipolar identity continues.

Why keep Malkin and Letang prior to Dubas? Why bring in Dubas at all? Why sign Jarry/Graves to deals? Why Eller if not to be flipped for draft picks? Why trade Guentzel for a roster player instead of strictly draft picks?

The consensus by everyone including some of our genius media talking heads is a balance of win now and stock the cupboard - but outside of Karlsson and later Bunting - all the other moves are not 'win now' pieces at all. I get that Sullivan is hot trash at player evaluation but I mean - the contracts and targets we've had make zero sense.

Sell, or buy. Where in the hell does Hayes fit in? If we were straight tanking, sure. But the in between stuff? Taking on 2 years of him in the final hour of Sid/Geno is sort of disrespectful IF the goal is to win with those two. If it's not (how can anyone think it is with the marriage to Sullivan) - then why keep them? The best Sid is the Sid in pursuit of victory. Why even offer an extension? This team hasn't made sense in years. Strange addiction to keep I guess.

Here's what I think - I think that Dubas and Sullivan sat down last summer and designed a team. Dubas went out and got the players that complement that plan. Turns out, the team was old and it became clear that energetic and hungry players were missing. That's caused Dubas to shift this thinking and his planning. He's actually been incredibly consistent in what he's wanting ever since the TDL last year - accrue young talent.

So I think we can safety say that there was a botched plan last season that has forced them to pivot. They don't have crystal balls and they can't turn back clocks on guys like Carter. But I imagine Dubas understands the situation: you need to keep Sid ( and the core) happy because they've earned it and you need to build the next generation. That's what we are seeing now. Over the course of 82 games there will be plenty of opportunities for guys to show us what they got. It may mean a couple more games from Hayes and Acciari than we want but no doubt we see our young guns getting the chance, especially if Yager gets to go to the AHL.

Not everything is perfect all the time. It's tough to win the Stanley Cup.

 

[Andy99]

I do feel like you can find those again. Pietrangelo and Hamilton come to mind. You just have to be willing to pay when the time comes. Vgk and NJ were.



I think Smiths value will be on July 3 or 4th when teams are still looking to bolster the roster but missed on FAs. Trouble is, Dubas likely wanted a pick for him so value and deals might change. That said, there's no issue with keeping Smith. It's a whole new season and he's a UFA. He'll be playing for his next deal just like Zucker did and we'll reap the rewards. Having an extra top 6 LW right now is important because we don't necessarily know how FA will go.



Here's what I think - I think that Dubas and Sullivan sat down last summer and designed a team. Dubas went out and got the players that complement that plan. Turns out, the team was old and it became clear that energetic and hungry players were missing. That's caused Dubas to shift this thinking and his planning. He's actually been incredibly consistent in what he's wanting ever since the TDL last year - accrue young talent.

So I think we can safety say that there was a botched plan last season that has forced them to pivot. They don't have crystal balls and they can't turn back clocks on guys like Carter. But I imagine Dubas understands the situation: you need to keep Sid ( and the core) happy because they've earned it and you need to build the next generation. That's what we are seeing now. Over the course of 82 games there will be plenty of opportunities for guys to show us what they got. It may mean a couple more games from Hayes and Acciari than we want but no doubt we see our young guns getting the chance, especially if Yager gets to go to the AHL.

Not everything is perfect all the time. It's tough to win the Stanley Cup.

He wants to accrue young talent but apparently doesn’t want them to win any jobs lol…there are no spots open for young players on this team and if you do that to Sullivan, young guys won’t be played….

 

[SEALBound]

He wants to accrue young talent but apparently doesn’t want them to win any jobs lol…there are no spots open for young players on this team and if you do that to Sullivan, young guys won’t be played….

Except that's opposite of what Sullivan just said today.

Puustinen, Poulin, and Gruden will be expected to be on the roster. Pomo will likely start in the AHL but they'll keep a close eye on him.

Just because we have guys like Nieto and Acciari on the roster doesn't mean they will play over Poulin or Puustinen necessarily.

 

[Ryder71]

He wants to accrue young talent but apparently doesn’t want them to win any jobs lol…there are no spots open for young players on this team and if you do that to Sullivan, young guys won’t be played….

You're just lying at this point. Pono if healthy will make the team. ST Ivany was afforded a real good look by Sully.

Except that's opposite of what Sullivan just said today.

Puustinen, Poulin, and Gruden will be expected to be on the roster. Pomo will likely start in the AHL but they'll keep a close eye on him.

Just because we have guys like Nieto and Acciari on the roster doesn't mean they will play over Poulin or Puustinen necessarily.

Precisely! Well, Poulin sucks, I expect Pono to make the team.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

20 goal potential, forechecking menace, been injured since he got to Tampa.

It’s a lot for him at this point, but he fits LA’s typical love in a 3rd / 4th liner.

He's 27 and outside of that one season, hasn't shown flashes of shit for offense injured or not. Definitely fits their love for the Trevor Lewis type.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't understand the complaining about trading for Bunting as if that contradicts the rebuild/retool idea. Bunting has 2 years left at $4.5 million, they can absolutely get strong value for him as a rental next year.

People have such a black and white idea for "contending" or "rebuilding". It's a hell of a lot more complicated than "rebuilding teams blow up all at once, and contending teams go all-in at once".

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If this is a rebuild, I’m absolutely expecting Petts and Rust to be traded and any other vet we can get a good prospect or high pick for…anything else would be hypocritical

If they extend Pettersson then they're not understanding what a rebuild is.