Post-Game Talk: Game V Pens win: Geno is so score

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Also how ya'll liking that Quinn defense?

EK is looking real "unlocked" that's for sure.

 

[Pancakes]

Also how ya'll liking that Quinn defense?

EK is looking real "unlocked" that's for sure.

I'm not a huge fan of the Quinn defense but the Quinn powerplay is looking good at least.

Take your victories where you can get em I guess?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

The move should be to trade Jarry for an anchor contract. Jarry is actively hurting the team. At least an overpaid dman or forward can still contribute and improve the team.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Also how ya'll liking that Quinn defense?

EK is looking real "unlocked" that's for sure.

This is exactly what I expected from Quinn. Improved PP and far worse defending, which would outweigh the PPs improvement.

The offense has covered for him, but how long can they keep this up?

In fairness, EK has been bad at defense for most of his career, and Reirden got arguably the most diligent defensive season of his career out of him.
I was under no illusion that we were gonna get an encore that way.

At least he's scoring nicely and is making the games more fun.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm not a huge fan of the Quinn defense but the Quinn powerplay is looking good at least.

Take your victories where you can get em I guess?

This is exactly what I expected from Quinn. Improved PP and far worse defending, which would outweigh the PPs improvement.

The offense has covered for him, but how long can they keep this up?

In fairness, EK has been bad at defense for most of his career, and Reirden got arguably the most diligent defensive season of his career out of him.
I was under no illusion that we were gonna get an encore that way.

At least he's scoring nicely and is making the games more fun.

Agreed with both.

Powerplay definitely better despite my cynicism. And some of it is absolutely in the scheme... to give Quinn credit.

Also agree that while EK is leaky... he's always been kinda leaky. And at least this version of him is fun.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So what's your problem with it?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

So what's your problem with it?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

obtuse - it was Sully singlehandedly destroying the trade. You cannot allow your HC to have the most power, especially over your GM.

Yeah, I think it's way too simplistic to just boil it down to Rutherford ruined the club by adding Reaves. It's the fact that move showed that the GM and coach aren't on the same page and the coach refused to utilize properly players who didn't "fit" what he wants.

Citing the addition of a 12th/13th forward as the beginning of the end seems to ignore all the issues this coach has brought upon this club with regards forwards 1 to 11 and defensemen 1 to 6.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Reaves trade was baffling but not nearly as destructive as the JJ fiasco if we are simply keeping it to transactions made.

I think JR's big sin that was not trade or FA related was slowly paring down the FO for years until he was basically the king of his own lonely little empire. Just a moronic echo chamber. Until it took ownership stepping in and telling him whatever it was they told him that made him rage-quit. We never really did find out what that was. Lovely journalists we have in this town.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I mean... some people are going to be loathe to admit it now since last season was kind of a dumpster fire but the big commentary around the team once Dubas was hired is how Mike Sullivan would FINALLY have a GM to be on the same page with and that he was going to basically get his wish list granted.

Whoops.

Wait, the commentary around Dubas was that HE was the GM to make this more Sullivan's team? Lol, JR was making it more Sullivan's team before he left, so was Hextall and now Dubas.

The only issue is, Mike Sullivan's idea of a competitive team is ass.

ryan reaves truly marked the end of sid competing for cups

Yeah but have you considered how wrong you are?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Wait, the commentary around Dubas was that HE was the GM to make this more Sullivan's team? Lol, JR was making it more Sullivan's team before he left, so was Hextall and now Dubas.

The only issue is, Mike Sullivan's idea of a competitive team is ass.

People insisted for years that Sullivan was the victim of his GMs not being on the same page as him.

I have debated people as recently as just several seasons ago that insisted that Mike Sullivan simply silently sits by and takes what he gets with little to no input. Madness.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, I think it's way too simplistic to just boil it down to Rutherford ruined the club by adding Reaves. It's the fact that move showed that the GM and coach aren't on the same page and the coach refused to utilize properly players who didn't "fit" what he wants.

Citing the addition of a 12th/13th forward as the beginning of the end seems to ignore all the issues this coach has brought upon this club with regards forwards 1 to 11 and defensemen 1 to 6.

The funniest part in all of this was that JR listened to his franchise star and got him a player that really, wasn't an issue to use at all on the 4th line in sparing minutes, Reaves wasn't a player accustomed to 15+ a night. He was a player that averaged around 8-9mins a night and then he comes to the Penguins and Sullivan quite literally throws a tantrum at the mere thought of using a player his star players wanted as protection and to feel safe with how players were taking runs at them.

Reaves was down to around 6mins per game on the Penguins, Sullivan tanked that trade single handedly because he wanted to prove some point and that point was likely something like - this is my team, f*** off with adding anyone that even Crosby wants. It was comical, Reaves hadn't played that little since his first two years in the NHL, trying to crack the Blues roster.

Imagine being that pissy as a coach about a 12/13th forward and forcing that trade. Rutherford also traded Hagelin because of how Sullivan was misusing the line-up and forcing things, only thing is JR realized his mistake too late and couldn't trade for Hagelin back because he didn't understand the rules with retention.

But the vast majority of the issues that plague the Penguins today are Sullivan's own doing and it's been pretty hilarious to see GM's get raked over the coals for it while his smug bostonian ass gets praise heaped upon him like some mistreated saint.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Wait, the commentary around Dubas was that HE was the GM to make this more Sullivan's team? Lol, JR was making it more Sullivan's team before he left, so was Hextall and now Dubas.

The only issue is, Mike Sullivan's idea of a competitive team is ass.

Sullivan's ideal team:
-Sid between the smallest wingers possible who can skate fast but suck defensively and have hands of stone
-Geno between slow wingers who have hands of stone
-Lines 3 and 4 play like clones of ZAR.

Any players who don't fit into those categories, he finds a way to misuse or just flat out doesn't want his GM to acquire.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

People insisted for years that Sullivan was the victim of his GMs not being on the same page as him.

I have debated people as recently as just several seasons ago that insisted that Mike Sullivan simply silently sits by and takes what he gets with little to no input. Madness.

Remember when it came out he approached JR about wanting Jack Johnson and outlined how he would utilize him on this roster and then had Gonchar back him up?

It cost Gonchar his job.

Or how he wanted Mark Jankowski who quite literally sucked and he kept playing for 40+ games instead of others in the system that were far better, this team has always made every effort they could within reason and at times even without reason, to make it his team and got in shit for it rather than him.

Some still do it now, they just refuse to accept it. They'd rather blame JR and Hextall like they were some ghouls that had this sinister ulterior motive to destroy the team - especially if you read the drivel by Yohe and Rossi in their tumblr-esque fan fiction about the whole ordeal of "Say it ain't so Geno, tis I, your brother Sidney Crosby to the rescue from the horrid Sheriff Hextall!" or whatever dumb shit they were ranting on about with feelings and texts.

Sullivan's ideal team:
-Sid between the smallest wingers possible who can skate fast but suck defensively and have hands of stone
-Geno between slow wingers who have hands of stone
-Lines 3 and 4 play like clones of ZAR.

Any players who don't fit into those categories, he finds a way to misuse or just flat out doesn't want his GM to acquire.

Lol, nailed it.

I also was never a fan of how he utilized the starter and back-up, he'd pick the worst time to break up the workload and would never understand when to pull the goalie or realizing when his goalies needed to be rotated in the schedule while you'd see every other team do it better.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Let's also not forget, he really wanted Big Game (Br)Ass because for reasons unkown, Riley Sheahan who was a perfectly good 3C for us that year, wasn't enough and he also wanted to openly beef with Ian Cole to the point of being petty with his usage, his minutes, at times healthy scratching him until he couldn't because he needed him even if he didn't want to use him.

That trade that Sullivan basically forced, also cost the Penguins a 1st and Gustavsson.

Then to make it better, he used Brassard like Sheahan and was shocked he wasn't working out in that role, then tried him on wing, etc, just an absolute shit show. With the funniest f***ing part being he talked about his familiarity with him and how he was his Assistant Coach, blah blah...then went on to do all of the wrong things with him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sullivan's ideal team:
-Sid between the smallest wingers possible who can skate fast but suck defensively and have hands of stone
-Geno between slow wingers who have hands of stone
-Lines 3 and 4 play like clones of ZAR.

Any players who don't fit into those categories, he finds a way to misuse or just flat out doesn't want his GM to acquire.

That's pretty much spot on actually.

 

[SEALBound]

I can't wait until the mods see this thread and nuke it from orbit.

 

[Andy99]

So I’m entirely committed to our PP% remaining at 26.7% for 82 games and Geno scoring at 2 points/game over the entire season, and don’t talk me down from it! Lol

 

[Honour Over Glory]

So I’m entirely committed to our PP% remaining at 26.7% for 82 games and Geno scoring at 2 points/game over the entire season, and don’t talk me down from it! Lol

The best thing about Geno's current stats is that 7 of them are at ES, he only has 4pts on the PP, so if anyone thinks he's just padding his stats on the powerplay, for one, he's long overdue to have that benefit like everyone else if the powerplay wasn't aboslute ass, and second, he's really not relying on those at all, he's just literally doing it all for his line everywhere on the ice.

I had a hard time finding hope with this team with the current coach and the shit situation with that, but Geno looking like his healthy self again gives me the warm fuzzies watching the usual disaster we see with this team each game.

That's pretty much spot on actually.

It something that should be stickied in each Off season thread or trade thread for the Pens board lol.

It'll always suck knowing Rakell is the best winger for Crosby and Sullivan refuses to make it happen because he wants to pander to Rust.

Rakell is the winger that makes any other bloke on the other wing, a great fit just with Rakell being on Sid's line. Even Beauvillier's not as useless (sort of) on Sid's wing if Raks is there.

I can't wait until the mods see this thread and nuke it from orbit.

We've had worse threads stay open for a long time, maybe we should be personally angry at more things with this team and its players or something...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Uh huh.

 

[McGroarty2]

Malkin on pace for 180 pts.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Probably significantly different but not any better.

The team becoming what it is now was inevitable because the core is simply old. The only way to possibly have gone down a different path was to blow up the team in the 2018-2020 window.

I wish I could 'Like' this post more than once.

Also how ya'll liking that Quinn defense?

I think it might be what we need to do right now.
We haven't really been good at trapping since 2018 or so, (or more accurately, the players don't like doing it, so they stop after a while), and I think that with the addition of slower players such as Hayes and Glass, it wouldn't be as effective as it even used to be before.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Probably significantly different but not any better.

The team becoming what it is now was inevitable because the core is simply old. The only way to possibly have gone down a different path was to blow up the team in the 2018-2020 window.

I mean the core is old, sure, that's not the issue at all, it's who they've surrounded the core with and the coach seemingly choosing those older options basically every time.

Since 2018 or so - Drew O'Connor is the only young prospect that was given games and time that has developed and really that's actually a miracle when you consider how he's been used. I think his whole small player that hit spurt was overlooked when small, etc, probably lit a fire under his ass that drives him harder than most to just take whatever shit usage he got and keep rolling with it and the demotions. Even now, somehow he's getting shafted for Beauvillier in the top 6, Doc should be with Geno.

But along that way, they basically said f*** you to Hallander, Gruden, Puustinen, T. Smith, Friedman, POJ, etc with just bizarre usage and healthy scratches and gave those opportunities to players like Harkins, Archibald, Sceviour, Jankowski, Caggiula (the bloke that basically ruined Schultz with the concussion imo),Ruhwedel, etc etc. Then there's the long list of players that were just misused and should have been scouted, developed and deployed better, I know if I named the names, blokes here will focus on that because we can't have a discussion without someone holding a grudge against this or that player in some weird personal vendetta type of bs. Who knows if any of these players grow into something more with better usage, all we know is what they ended up becoming because of the lack of it in most cases. I mean do you lot think if they kept up Rutger and slowly dumped him to the 4th line with barely 8mins a game, that he'd develop the same way if they just let him work the wrinkles in his game out in WBS with twice the minutes and more opportunities on special teams? Probably not. Then if he turned to shit if they did the 4th line thing, all anyone would say is - well he always sucked. Always infuriating to see blokes that narrow minded.

Glass is young, so is Beauvillier, but in the latter's case, he's been useless outside of 2 goals against an absolutely dreadful Red Wings team and goalie, somehow a more deserving talented winger sits with 0 games. While it's cool to see Beauvillier getting a chance, he's also a player that is on his 4th team in 2 seasons, so I don't know maybe playing the lad that actually showed a ton of promise instead might warrant a look? To most coaches but not ours for some reason. Rutger got 3 games, awful usage and minutes, but he's got immense hockey IQ so he will take this in stride and grow, lucky us.

The age will drop just out of players aging out and moving on (Eller likely, Hayes, Pettersson, Grzelcyk, etc). Also the likely (more like definite) scenario of Jarry being the compliance buyout during that window and who knows what the goalie situation looks like next season, it could be Blomqvist and Murashov (that would be f***ing awesome). Too bad it's just one compliance buyout, because Graves and Jarry should both be off the cap. At this point you can't waste it on Graves, it 100% needs to be saved for Jarry and pray Graves rebounds in some miraculous way that draws interest from a team.

The tough part is I actually like the 4th line with the 2 old farts with Glass, I get both Glass and Hayes were brought in to utilize the cap space for picks etc, hopefully with Hayes they can still move him for another pick if they retained on him with their final slot - which I would definitely do given that Petry and Smith come off the other 2 slots which would leave Hayes on it for another year. If you can turn Hayes that brought back a 2nd into another 2nd and another pick with even more retention...yeah 100% for it, but that means he has to be used in ways he will succeed. Eller might be easier to move just as is with his cap at the TDL to a contender (you lot seriously don't think this is a playoff team with Sullivan, do you?) and hopefully Dubas leverages that for good haul of picks too, same goes for Pettersson and Grzelcyk at the TDL.

Doesn't mean the team is full on rebuilding, they're doing the smart play of weaponizing that cap space in the off season to off load them for more assets while having internal options already - I think what this team is now, they're fine at the TDL to take on a bad contract for the rest of the season or two in place of those players and call up youth or blokes like Aho, etc. I still think they should move Rust as soon as they can, at his age and injury history, that window isn't that wide open to move him and still get a fantastic return, for what he brings these days, I think the team will manage internally if they keep letting Puljujarvi grow with his minutes and then actually f***ing start playing Puustinen in the spot Puljujarvi is in right now while JP is in the top 6.

It's funny to think that in 2020, NHL Owners were against Compliance Buyouts, now I bet they wish they had more windows to do it so they can utilize that cap space, haha.

I think it might be what we need to do right now.
We haven't really been good at trapping since 2018 or so, (or more accurately, the players don't like doing it, so they stop after a while), and I think that with the addition of slower players such as Hayes and Glass, it wouldn't be as effective as it even used to be before.

I mentioned this a ton when Quinn was hired, but essentially the issues we saw last season and before that with the Penguins pinching at the wrong times, odd man rushes, collapses in their own end, bad net front presence and allowing teams to just park themselves in the offensive zone is literally the things Quinn struggled with as a coach in NY and San Jose, I don't know what anyone here was hoping he'd fix. I wouldn't trust Quinn to run the Defense, Powerplay, or Penalty Kill if Vellucci left. This is why I felt this was just beyond stupid to do, you can't let a coach hire his protege that literally has the same warts he does as a coach, you're not filling in the missing gaps with that hire, just strengthening the ignorant parts (also was billed a developmental coach, someone great with youths but then pandered to the veterans and wasn't that great with developing young players at all then for some bizarre reason got credit for developing talented players that he really wasn't key in developing or helping like Karlsson - who Warsofsky worked more with than he did).

I honestly don't think this team is even capable of playing any sort of trap effectively, I feel like that's a lot of hope out of this group the way they're coached to play defense.

It is weird though, this team has a lot of strong defensive players, or at least they were before playing in this sytem, but so many just look like absolute garbage in a system that doesn't really make any sense to employ at all in what the NHL has evolved into. This shit might have worked in 2015-16, but to keep trying it and hoping it would now is brutal.

I really hoped there was a hire they would make that would maybe reign in Sullivan and make this bearable, but when Quinn was hired, that went out the window entirely. I think why Tocchet worked so well is because he's an even stronger personality than Sullivan is and also being a player at the level he was, in his role he thrived in getting the message across in a different way and even challenging things Sullivan did, but then he got Assistants like Recchi, Reirden, etc that weren't strong voices behind the bench and he's just left to his vices thinking his way works, its the players that keep f***ing it up - basically since 2018 with an insane amount of turnover on this roster.

(sorry, long post, I hate having to do multiple posts as replies to things, rathert just get it all off my chest in one fell swoop).

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I honestly don't think this team is even capable of playing any sort of trap effectively

They played the trap effectively at points last season, particular during the 5-game win streak after starting 3-6.
They got away from it, of course, and also that was last year's roster and not this year's.