GDT: Game 8: Seattle Kraken @ Arizona Coyotes | 11/6/21 19:00 UTC-7:00 | BSAZ+

PainForShane

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I agree. I like to see the effort level, and team toughness. It's why scratching Liam O'Brien for Loui Eriksson makes me insane. That's Chayka/Tocchet stuff, not BA/Bear stuff, and I don't like it one bit.

If you really think about it, they scratched O'Brien for Antoine Roussel, they scratched Ladd for Loui Eriksson. Not sure if that makes any difference in the way you see it (I like O'Brien too), but I think the above is a more accurate way of looking at things (Roussel / O'Brien have similar skillsets, O'Brien more visibly physical, Roussel better at hockey at this particular time).

Also... I mean guys if you don't want to watch this year then don't watch, you know? It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when Guenther, Wright etc (hopefully) get to be actual impact NHLers. Like our former 'top 5 GM' John Chayka said 'hope is not a plan' and at least we have a plan right now -- a GM who is known for his ability to draft and also so many early draft picks in a draft year that's supposed to be really good.

So yeah. That's the plan. I personally think it's a good plan, but like any other plan it's not guaranteed to work, nothing is. That said though, if you don't want to watch this year that's totally fine, just be sure to come back we're good in however many years that takes (may be a few)
 

rt

Clean Hits on Substack
If you really think about it, they scratched O'Brien for Antoine Roussel, they scratched Ladd for Loui Eriksson. Not sure if that makes any difference in the way you see it (I like O'Brien too), but I think the above is a more accurate way of looking at things (Roussel / O'Brien have similar skillsets, O'Brien more visibly physical, Roussel better at hockey at this particular time).
I don't think it's accurate at all, actually. Both Roussel and O'Brien played in the previous game, and Eriksson didn't. O'Brien came out of the lineup and Eriksson came in. Roussel remained in the lineup.

Also... I mean guys if you don't want to watch this year then don't watch, you know? It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when Guenther, Wright etc (hopefully) get to be actual impact NHLers. Like our former 'top 5 GM' John Chayka said 'hope is not a plan' and at least we have a plan right now -- a GM who is known for his ability to draft and also so many early draft picks in a draft year that's supposed to be really good.
I've watched well over 90% of all Coyotes games ever played in their entire history. I'm not selling low, thanks. I'll go ahead and hang on for brighter days.
 
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rt

Clean Hits on Substack
Man, that was fun.

Certainly the most fun I’ve had a game this year, maybe the most fun I’ve had at a Yotes game ever.

About the game:
1) Atmosphere was amazing, lots of people there which was pleasantly surprising, fans were pretty evenly split. There were entire upper deck sections that were completely full, I’ve never seen that at GRA before. Maybe some of it was military appreciation night (which now includes the space force smh), the crowd was vocal and into the game. The NYI game was well attended too which makes two well attended Saturday night games in a row.

2) The system we play is a lot of fun to watch too. All the players have full ability to move anywhere in the ice. In the offensive zone, our wings often switch sides (incl sometimes lining up on their off wing on the faceoff), defensemen routinely pinch deeply while forwards cover for them. In our own zone we use this weird man / zone combination where we send multiple people in the corner while keeping another player hanging a few feet back to take up any potential passing lane… which means we leave the weak side completely uncovered half the time. When it works it means no heavy minutes in our D-zone, when it doesn’t work it looks like the other team is running a PP. Fun to watch either way, but this is very different than the defense Scott Allen ran.

2 cont) Another note about coaching, I really like what Tourigny and his staff are doing. In this game in particular, the doorstep was open every time they had the puck below our goal line (e.g., 1st and 3rd goals against), by the 3rd period we adjusted our centers and completely took away that option. To me, the staff's Xs and Os make sense and I hope we keep him around beyond the rebuild.

Player reports:

1) Wedgewood. Wedgewood is clearly our best option in net right now – meaning he is an NHL goaltender and doesn’t need any further seasoning. He plays kind of like Fleury -- he’s athletic and challenges shooters, reads plays well, covers pucks as appropriately etc. For those who missed the game, in the first two minutes of the 3rd period he made a couple of outstanding / highlight reel saves -- another good sequence at about 5 mins into the 3rd and of course in the final few seconds of the game as well. Also, Wedgewood is extremely flexible which I'm impressed by because it means he’s put in the work in the yoga room (which is certainly a positive).

2) At this stage, I do not believe Vejmelka is an NHL-level goaltender. I don’t really want to do a deep dive on it, but on the second goal against his actions prior to the shot effectively prevented him from saving the shot -- at a high level he basically read the play too slowly (it was not a quickly developing play) which forced him to guess where the shot was going, he guessed wrong. Either way let’s see what he can do after half a season or so getting used to the pace of play, in the meantime Wedgewood should be starting most games for us. Another compliment to the coaching staff for pulling Vej after 2 goals and not waiting for the 3rd.

** My comments re: Vej are based on the home games where I’ve seen him in person. I haven't really been paying attention to the away games other than the highlights and box scores, I do know his stats have been good this year.

3) Crouse had a GAME. Another game, actually -- he was great last time I saw him live also. He’s always been physical but now I feel he’s not only brought that up a notch, he’s also driving the play offensively which I’ve never really seen him do before. If he keeps this up he’s a 25-30 goal scorer who plays with an edge, this is what people envisioned when he was drafted in the 1st round whatever year that was.

4) Other forwards – Boyd, McCartney, Roussel, Hayton (Ladd and O’Brien were scratched).
Boyd I thought had a terrible game other than that goal, he looked lost out there for long stretches. McCartney I thought was great – he’s fast and forechecked / battled hard, made the right simple play over and over again but I barely saw him in the 3rd so maybe the coach disagrees with me. Roussel had a goal (?!) but what surprised me is how average a build he has for someone who plays such a physical game. To be clear though he’s not as noticeable physically as O’Brien, but he did score which obviously matters too.

4 cont) Hayton. Left Hayton for last because… well, there’s so much there. He definitely has potential offensively (more below), but he loses every single 1-1 battle, whether it’s a puck battle or a jostling for position in the front of the net – the example I’m thinking of re: physical battle was one against Jordan Eberle who was set up for a deflection in front of the net, Hayton couldn’t move him at all even though he tried for a good 10-15 seconds. Which was very strange to see, Jordan Eberle is not known for being especially strong on his skates.

Offensively Hayton shows patches – for instance on Phil’s goal Hayton set the perfect screen on a timing play which is incredibly hard to do – watching the replay I’d even argue that he’s the main reason that goal goes in because it was such a good screen. He was also noticeably dominant in the faceoff circle (officially 10 for 14) which I really don’t understand because I thought faceoffs were mostly a strength skill…?

Anyway Hayton would be a much better player if he hit the gym and put on another 10-20 pounds or so, hopefully he does that next year or two.

5) Defensively Mayo was great again (this is his 2nd game I’ve seen), he’s always in position and makes the right play every time with no drama. Perfect D partner for Ghost which was probably part of the reason Ghost played free and got 3 As. The only thing Mayo doesn’t do it hit, but we have guys like Bush for that (or O’Brien when he draws back into the lineup hopefully soon!). I didn’t notice Cam Dineen either way but it’s probably a good thing if he gave us 15 mins of low event hockey.

Anyway though -- great game! Also a quick favor -- please someone who played center jump in here regarding how a weak person can win faceoffs, I honestly don’t understand it WRT Hayton. Thanks in advance and go Yotes! Will sleep well tonight hope you all do too :)

I disagree with everything you've said about Hayton. His physical play has been the biggest surprise and bright spot of his season so far. By far the biggest change and the reason he's actually in games this season. He's obviously added a bunch of muscle and is winning so many one on one battles. He's really playing very well physically this season. Last season he spent most of every shift on his ass. It was pathetic. He's been great physically this season. Finishing his checks, protecting the puck, keeping his feet, and winning battles. He went head-to-head with Jordan Staal in Carolina all night long and was fantastic in those heated battles. Really proud of him and hopeful about what it means for his future. I didn't see any of what you saw from Hayton against Seattle.
 

XX

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O'Brien took a borderline call that Anaheim immediately scored on, leaving the Coyotes 2 down in a period they carried 5v5. He then took a misconduct during a stoppage. It's really not a wonder that he came out for a rested player on a back to back. They won.

I love what O'Brien brings but he's not generating much when he is on the ice. Lowest xGF/60 and comically bad sub 30% xGF% when everyone else is in the 40s or better. He needs to play better inside the team concept, like Roussel.

Really not a wonder he got parked after that crushing PP goal against, even if it wasn't entirely his fault.
 

GhostofTommyBolin

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Also... I mean guys if you don't want to watch this year then don't watch, you know? It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when Guenther, Wright etc (hopefully) get to be actual impact NHLers. Like our former 'top 5 GM' John Chayka said 'hope is not a plan' and at least we have a plan right now -- a GM who is known for his ability to draft and also so many early draft picks in a draft year that's supposed to be really good.

So yeah. That's the plan. I personally think it's a good plan, but like any other plan it's not guaranteed to work, nothing is. That said though, if you don't want to watch this year that's totally fine, just be sure to come back we're good in however many years that takes (may be a few)

Just my opinion, but this is a bad take. I'm not saying you have to spend a ton of money on tickets and merch when they're a garbage team, but "It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when..."? No way, man. That's trash. If you don't endure the bad times, you shouldn't get to enjoy the (potentially) good times. Treat it like a marriage; if it's so bad that you can't stomach it anymore, then call it quits and be done with it, and don't look at their social media accounts after the divorce. And don't come crawling back after they've had counseling and lost some weight, either.
 
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Summer Rose

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I don't think it's accurate at all, actually. Both Roussel and O'Brien played in the previous game, and Eriksson didn't. O'Brien came out of the lineup and Eriksson came in. Roussel remained in the lineup.


I've watched well over 90% of all Coyotes games ever played in their entire history. I'm not selling low, thanks. I'll go ahead and hang on for brighter days.

Loui Eriksson sucks. Should I start a thread about him?
 

RemoAZ

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Just my opinion, but this is a bad take. I'm not saying you have to spend a ton of money on tickets and merch when they're a garbage team, but "It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when..."? No way, man. That's trash. If you don't endure the bad times, you shouldn't get to enjoy the (potentially) good times. Treat it like a marriage; if it's so bad that you can't stomach it anymore, then call it quits and be done with it, and don't look at their social media accounts after the divorce. And don't come crawling back after they've had counseling and lost some weight, either.
I could kind of accept that take if this was just a bump in the road and rebuild season after some really competitive years. It's not. They've been mostly bad, really bad for DECADES. They've had one lightning in a bottle season and a couple where they were barely better than mediocre. So if someone doesn't consider me, who has spent 10's of thousands of $ on this team in those same decades a fan because I choose not to support a year they are intentionally trying to be the worst team in the league, I say that blind support you give is way worse and encourages bad ownership. If they put enough talent on the ice next season to at least be interesting and are playing somewhere I can get to, you damn right I'll be there cheering, having a great time enjoying my favorite entertainment and not feel bad at all about it.
 
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PainForShane

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I don't think it's accurate at all, actually. Both Roussel and O'Brien played in the previous game, and Eriksson didn't. O'Brien came out of the lineup and Eriksson came in. Roussel remained in the lineup.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Technically you're right, but prior to last game our biggest problem is we couldn't score (14 goals in 11 games not including SEA), and Roussel and O'Brien have similar skillsets physically. So, yes while you are right, I view it more as O'Brien and Roussel going for 1 roster spot even though they were both in the lineup for *looks it up* 5 games before that (am surprised) where we scored only 3 goals total (am not as surprised). If we need more scoring (which we do), I don't mind having only one of Roussel or O'Brien in the lineup, especially we're not getting pushed around physically like we've been the past few years.

I've watched well over 90% of all Coyotes games ever played in their entire history. I'm not selling low, thanks. I'll go ahead and hang on for brighter days.

That wasn't really directed to you rt. I just feel like about half of the posters here aren't enjoying this year, and if that's the case, I don't think there's anything wrong with just watching highlights for a few years and then coming back during brighter days -- in other words I think a sports team is not a marriage, a sports team is a sports team. It's supposed to be fun / entertaining, and it makes sense that not everyone would find this season fun or entertaining, if so why not spend your time on other things that you find more enjoyable you know? We only live once after all. To be clear though, my statement about fandom was not directed toward you rt
 
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Sm00chy

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If you really think about it, they scratched O'Brien for Antoine Roussel, they scratched Ladd for Loui Eriksson. Not sure if that makes any difference in the way you see it (I like O'Brien too), but I think the above is a more accurate way of looking at things (Roussel / O'Brien have similar skillsets, O'Brien more visibly physical, Roussel better at hockey at this particular time).

Also... I mean guys if you don't want to watch this year then don't watch, you know? It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when Guenther, Wright etc (hopefully) get to be actual impact NHLers. Like our former 'top 5 GM' John Chayka said 'hope is not a plan' and at least we have a plan right now -- a GM who is known for his ability to draft and also so many early draft picks in a draft year that's supposed to be really good.

So yeah. That's the plan. I personally think it's a good plan, but like any other plan it's not guaranteed to work, nothing is. That said though, if you don't want to watch this year that's totally fine, just be sure to come back we're good in however many years that takes (may be a few)
I honestly think this year’s team is the most entertaining team the last 3-4 years.

I am embracing the suck and enjoy watching the development
 

rt

Clean Hits on Substack
We can agree to disagree on this one. Technically you're right, but prior to last game our biggest problem is we couldn't score (14 goals in 11 games not including SEA), and Roussel and O'Brien have similar skillsets physically. So, yes while you are right, I view it more as O'Brien and Roussel going for 1 roster spot even though they were both in the lineup for *looks it up* 5 games before that (am surprised) where we scored only 3 goals total (am not as surprised). If we need more scoring (which we do), I don't mind having only one of Roussel or O'Brien in the lineup, especially we're not getting pushed around physically like we've been the past few years.



That wasn't really directed to you rt. I just feel like about half of the posters here aren't enjoying this year, and if that's the case, I don't think there's anything wrong with just watching highlights for a few years and then coming back during brighter days -- in other words I think a sports team is not a marriage, a sports team is a sports team. It's supposed to be fun / entertaining, and it makes sense that not everyone would find this season fun or entertaining, if so why not spend your time on other things that you find more enjoyable you know? We only live once after all. To be clear though, my statement about fandom was not directed toward you rt
My posts came off as waaaaay more abrasive than I meant them to. No idea why I chose such aggressive wording earlier. Too much coffee or something. I meant to be having a discussion with you but it came off as grossly defensive and snippy.
 

PainForShane

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I disagree with everything you've said about Hayton. His physical play has been the biggest surprise and bright spot of his season so far. By far the biggest change and the reason he's actually in games this season. He's obviously added a bunch of muscle and is winning so many one on one battles. He's really playing very well physically this season. Last season he spent most of every shift on his ass. It was pathetic. He's been great physically this season. Finishing his checks, protecting the puck, keeping his feet, and winning battles. He went head-to-head with Jordan Staal in Carolina all night long and was fantastic in those heated battles. Really proud of him and hopeful about what it means for his future. I didn't see any of what you saw from Hayton against Seattle.

We're going to have to disagree about this, though. To be clear I am going to / watching the home games only this year, and only watching parts of the away ones when I have time (sometimes on radio). So, I can't talk about what Hayton did in Carolina. But for last game only, Hayton badly lost every 1-1 battle whether it was a puck battle or physically jostling people around, other than faceoffs which like I said doesn't make any sense to me. And it wasn't due to lack of effort, he tried every time and wasn't able to win any of them.

Agree that he's also bigger than when he came into the league, but seeing him live he's still one of the smaller players, I doubt he's more than 175 or so (listed at 190). Maybe putting on muscle would help, maybe more stability like @The Feckless Puck said, either way he still needs to get stronger in that area much like Keller did this offseason
 

PainForShane

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My posts came off as waaaaay more abrasive than I meant them to. No idea why I chose such aggressive wording earlier. Too much coffee or something. I meant to be having a discussion with you but it came off as grossly defensive and snippy.

Ha, you're good. I've shown enough aggression here at times as well. It is (and will be) a very long season :help:
 
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rt

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We're going to have to disagree about this, though. To be clear I am going to / watching the home games only this year, and only watching parts of the away ones when I have time (sometimes on radio). So, I can't talk about what he did in Carolina. But for last game only, Hayton badly lost every 1-1 battle whether it was a puck battle or physically jostling people around, other than faceoffs which like I said doesn't make any sense to me. Losing 1-1 battles also wasn't due to lack of effort, he tried every time and wasn't able to win any of them.

Agree that he's also bigger than when he came into the league, but seeing him live he's one of the smaller players, I doubt he's more than 175 or so (listed at 190). Maybe putting on muscle would help, maybe more stability like @The Feckless Puck said, either way he still needs to get stronger in that area much like Keller did this offseason
I didn’t see it. I’ve been seeing the opposite out of Hayton. So who knows? I guess we’ll key in on this against Minnesota and see what we see together.
 

Llewzaher

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To each their own, but this season is a lot more watchable, in terms of entertainment value, than the previous few seasons, for me. Rick Tocchet's brand of hockey is enough to give you an aneurysm.

The first couple of games were unwatchable .. we were very slow and frustrating beyond belief and no effort .. I would take last years team with Tocchet anyday over those 3 games. That was the first time I really could not watch the game... I have turned off the TV before if we were getting smoked.. but not because of just lack of effort . But since those 2 ( or 3 ) games we at least had effort and each game was getting better and better .. I will still get upset at our bad D coverage , but at least the games are watchable now
 
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Summer Rose

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My posts came off as waaaaay more abrasive than I meant them to. No idea why I chose such aggressive wording earlier. Too much coffee or something. I meant to be having a discussion with you but it came off as grossly defensive and snippy.

You come across as pretty calm and analytical to me, unless you're having a discussion with Jake.
 
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Jakey53

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I'm agreeing that hockey is fun, no matter what. It's odd that you've taken such a negative stance because you were always one for supporting the team.
Years past we always had reasons for crappy teams, and for the most part the GM and coach did the best they could, especially in the DM and Tip era. But now, I don't agree 100% in what they are doing and I'm not finding it fun to spend so much time watching losing hockey, so I decided to wait and see what transpires. I don't think trading four of your six best players in one off season is a recipe for success. Not only that, three of those were drafted and developed by the Coyotes. What makes matters worse, we never received any young proven NHL player in those deals other than Timmins, and he is hardly proven. Draft picks might be fun to have in a fantasy league, but as we all know the draft is a crap shoot. Maybe I'm wrong, but I will wait to be proven wrong, at the Coyote's expense, not mine.
 
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Jakey53

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Just my opinion, but this is a bad take. I'm not saying you have to spend a ton of money on tickets and merch when they're a garbage team, but "It's ok to take a few years off and then come back when..."? No way, man. That's trash. If you don't endure the bad times, you shouldn't get to enjoy the (potentially) good times. Treat it like a marriage; if it's so bad that you can't stomach it anymore, then call it quits and be done with it, and don't look at their social media accounts after the divorce. And don't come crawling back after they've had counseling and lost some weight, either.
Give me a break. I have watched the Coyotes for 20 yrs. and in those years have spent thousands of dollars going to games, buying merch etc. No one, including you can tell me when I can leave, or when I can or should come back. I, like the rest of the Coyote fans have endured years watching, and hoping that the next game, the next year will be better, only to get kicked in the balls again.
 
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Summer Rose

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The first couple of games were unwatchable .. we were very slow and frustrating beyond belief and no effort .. I would take last years team with Tocchet anyday over those 3 games. That was the first time I really could not watch the game... I have turned off the TV before if we were getting smoked.. but not because of just lack of effort . But since those 2 ( or 3 ) games we at least had effort and each game was getting better and better .. I will still get upset at our bad D coverage , but at least the games are watchable now

For the first couple of games, I was probably so excited that Coyotes hockey was back that I didn't really notice or consider the games unwatchable, so that's fair.
 
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Jakey53

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We're going to have to disagree about this, though. To be clear I am going to / watching the home games only this year, and only watching parts of the away ones when I have time (sometimes on radio). So, I can't talk about what Hayton did in Carolina. But for last game only, Hayton badly lost every 1-1 battle whether it was a puck battle or physically jostling people around, other than faceoffs which like I said doesn't make any sense to me. And it wasn't due to lack of effort, he tried every time and wasn't able to win any of them.

Agree that he's also bigger than when he came into the league, but seeing him live he's still one of the smaller players, I doubt he's more than 175 or so (listed at 190). Maybe putting on muscle would help, maybe more stability like @The Feckless Puck said, either way he still needs to get stronger in that area much like Keller did this offseason
Hayton is so frustrating to me. Like Coyotedroppings said, I can't get out of my head on where he was drafted. If he was drafted in the second round I would be ok with his development. I guess another high pick wasted for a mix six player.
 

JasonDemersWasOkay

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Hayton has adapted well to the physical side of the game. In that regard he looks like belongs a lot better than he did last year.

His problem right now is just the speed side. The puck seems to be moving just a bit too quick for him to process and when he gets the puck he takes just a bit too long to make plays. The puck doesn’t completely die on his stick, though.

You can see he’s almost there, he could easily have 3 goals by this point, and he’s still contributing positively by winning face offs and developing chemistry with Keller and crouse. Hayton will get there. By the end of the year he’ll probably have around 20 points, which puts him on the path to being a serviceable 3rd line 2-way center. That’ll be easier to stomach if we can nab Wright or Savoie to play above him
 
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