Star Platinum
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- May 11, 2024
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GDT: Game 64: Sharks @ Avalanche 6:30pm ESPN
- Thread starter Lebanezer
- Start date
karltonian
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- Jan 1, 2023
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The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
This is only the second year of the bottom-out after an extended decline that was the result of the contract hellstorm left behind by Doug Wilson. If you honestly thought that they should've been digging out of the pit by now after they had to spend all the time they did gutting bad contracts and actually being able to acquire high end prospects that's on you and not the team. This is not a team that's been picking 1st-3rd for 5 straight years or anything. They picked 1st last year, 4th the year before that, would've been 11th with their native pick before that, and 7th when they took Eklund 4 years ago. You want to point fingers at the slowness of the rebuild, point it at Wilson for selling off what ended up being the 3rd pick in 2020 for Erik Karlsson only to see the team implode. They've only really had 3 proper years of earnest "tanking" from an actual teardown. Rebuilds generally take 4 or 5 years of effort to clear the deck and load up before they turn the corner. That puts them on track to maybe start ascending next season or the one after that.
Could things go wrong and we end up stuck in the pit? Sure. But that's always a risk. It's just as risky, if not riskier, to accelerate the rebound and climb out of this mess before they're ready. Part of what's stuck Columbus in the vortex they've been in is that they kept seeing the light at tunnel and running toward it before they were ready. So they'd rise up a bit, falter, and fall right back down. If people are pissed off at losing now it'd be a million times worse if a couple of years of squeaking into the playoffs or just missing out give way to tumbling back down the standing and risk wasting Celebrini until he decides he wants to leave.
This year was always going to suck but it has sucked less than last year. Next year should suck slightly less than this one. Then the ascent begins in earnest. There's little to suggest this wasn't always the plan.
LadyStanley
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Tw1ster
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OrrNumber4
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- Jul 25, 2002
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- Jun 23, 2020
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We are not close to competing, so players who are very unlikely to be positive contributors to the next good Sharks team, or who will leave, should be moved when we can get real value for them.
Walman is nearly 30 and appears to be returning a lot, especially for a likely #4 defenseman in the midst of a very hot season. Sturm and Kunin are #12-13 depth forwards. Vanacek is a backup goalie. Ceci is a #5-6 defenseman; Ferraro is at best a #5, I think he's worse than that. Granlund was walking. Most of these guys will be gone, bad, in Europe, or retired when the Sharks are ready to compete. Keeping them for a quarter of a season does little or nothing to help the future.
Star Platinum
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- May 11, 2024
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We're the worst team in the league with too many bottom 6 forwards and too many third pair level defensemen and people are getting precious about losing them.
Walman is not good. Ferraro is not good. Kunin is not good. Get value for these guys to get guys that are at least okay.
All of this. Grier got us out from under Burns and Karlsson's contracts and minimized the damage from Hertl's ill-advised extension, all while bringing in key pieces of the future in Celebrini, Smith, Askarov, etc. He and his scouting team have been more shrewd about buying low on veteran players than I ever remember Wilson being. Yeah, they're still bad. But they're bad with cap space and on track to add another top-4 pick this year. If two or three of Dickinson, Halttunen, Bystedt, Cagnoni, Musty and this year's pick hit their ceiling, this team will be good again by the time we're done paying Logan Couture not to play.
I like it because I think it's a forward-thinking move for next year's team. With a 1st coming back, it's another asset to be used for making next year's team better or investing into the future of the team that is seeing a lot of young talent make an impact. If we keep that going, we will build the depth needed to compete.
Skeksis25
Registered User
If the rebuild started after the 2019 season, sure. But it didn't. In fact not only did it not, DW sacrificed the future for last gasp attempts during his last couple years. We are still paying for that today. The organization did not embrace a proper rebuild until last year really. You seriously cannot expect things to start turning around while we are still paying multiple people to not be on the team.
And look, I get that you cannot do the chase the #1 pick thing year after year. I have said a few times recently that I hope we are not contending for the #1 pick next year. Ideally, we end up with a pick in the 4-7 range next year to show some kinda progress. But you are freaking out over nothing players. Walman isn't some saviour. He is a 29 year old defensemen who played well above anything he has ever shown for about 30 games and since then has been quite awful. That does not magically make him a core part of the future. Losing him isn't some waving the white flag thing. We were goddamn awful with him too. If we start trading people like Eklund, Mukh or even Zetterlund for more picks, then that would be an org spinning its wheels.
Trading Walman when his value is high rather than hanging on to him because you wish the play he showed over 30 or so games trumps everything else he has ever done is a smart move. No complaints there.
No. I complained about the understandable compete level after the players just watched 20% of their team get traded. The players aren’t expected to win and it was a hard pill for them to swallow. You act like they’re professionals so they’re not allowed to have, what’s the word, feelings. If you don’t think it’s a gut punch especially the feel good vibes from the last two games, even though the players knew it was coming then perhaps you need to learn how to treat these players as human beings instead of entertainers at your disposal.
karltonian
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- Jan 1, 2023
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Walman is objectively not not good. Ferarro is arguable. The rest of the team yeah, not good.
The rebuild didn’t even start until Grier got hired. He literally had to clear out lots of bad contracts. It didn’t help that the Sharks drafting for the previous 10 years was atrocious.
There is no short cut to greatness when your franchise guy is 18 and the team is missing about 10 pieces.
It’s like some of you do not understand that the Sharks tore it down to the studs and it’s going to take time to build it up. There was literally next to nothing on this team before the 2023 draft save for Eklund.
This was also a 3rd road game in 4 nights after draining game in Toronto.
No one hits on all their drafts choices hence the reason you build up a massive farm system. You also build your farm system so you have assets to trade.
Not sure why people thought that getting Celebrini was going to suddenly make the Sharks a good team. It doesn’t work that way.
Hence the reason people said this wasn’t a playoff team until 2027-2028 or 2028-2029.
It's also understandable because of what the schedule and this road trip looked like. Three in four is tough for any team. So is four in six. I'm sure it's harder on inexperienced players going through it. I'm sure it's tough for rookies to lose their first set of NHL friends but it's part of the business and they knew that when they signed here. Everyone knows that. It's not really an excuse. They will be alright finishing this season and they can look forward to next season after they're done. And the moves they have done leading up to this will be good for everyone. It just takes time to let play out.
Oh for sure. Undoubtedly they knew. But you also gotta remember, especially for the kids, it’s been a long frustrating season and uncharted territory considering they’re not used to losing, and then watching a lot of your teammates traded (plus others playing with no idea if they’ll even be a part of the squad this time tomorrow), and I’m not surprised they’re compete level wasn’t high. Combine that with the opponent and the only thing I’m surprised about was how close the game was.
As I’ve said here before, there’s a human element that some here choose to deny existing.
LadyStanley
Registered User
drunksage
Sphere = underrated?
SNOG announcement
Different result in the NHL standings, same result in the SNOG standings.
| # | Date / Opponent | SNOG Winner(s) | Result |
| 1 | Oct. 10 vs Blues | none | Blues 5-4 OT |
| 2 | Oct. 12 vs Ducks | none | Ducks 2-0 |
| 3 | Oct. 15 at Stars | weastern bias | Stars 3-2 SO |
| 4 | Oct. 17 at Blackhawks | weastern bias | Blackhawks 4-2 |
| 5 | Oct. 18 at Jets | none | Jets 8-3 |
| 6 | Oct. 20 vs Avalanche | none | Avalanche 4-1 |
| 7 | Oct. 22 at Ducks | Timo Time | Ducks 3-1 |
| 8 | Oct. 24 at Kings | Friday | Kings 3-2 |
| 9 | Oct. 26 at VGK | none | VGK 7-3 |
| 10 | Oct. 28 at Utah | none | Sharks 5-4 OT |
| 11 | Oct. 29 vs Kings | MackAttack71, bluefunnel, sharks_dynasty | Sharks 4-2 |
| 12 | Oct. 31 vs Blackhawks | none | Sharks 3-2 |
| 13 | Nov. 2 vs Canucks | none | Canucks 3-2 |
| 14 | Nov. 5 vs Blue Jackets | none | Sharks 2-1 OT |
| 15 | Nov. 7 vs Wild | timorous me | Wild 5-2 |
| 16 | Nov. 10 at Devils | none | Sharks 1-0 |
| 17 | Nov. 11 at Flyers | TheBigDrunkPanda | Flyers 4-3 SO |
| 18 | Nov. 14 at Rangers | none | Rangers 3-2 |
| 19 | Nov. 16 at Penguins | PattyLafontaine | Penguins 4-3 SO |
| 20 | Nov. 18 vs Red Wings | none | Sharks 5-4 OT |
| 21 | Nov. 20 at Stars | weastern bias | Stars 5-2 |
| 22 | Nov. 21 at Blues | bullslugg, coooldude | Blues 3-2 SO |
| 23 | Nov. 23 vs Sabres | none | Sabres 4-2 |
| 24 | Nov. 25 vs Kings | none | Sharks 7-2 |
| 25 | Nov. 27 vs Senators | coooldude, PattyLafontaine | Senators 4-3 |
| 26 | Nov. 29 vs Kraken | none | Sharks 8-5 |
| 27 | Nov. 30 at Kraken | bluefunnel | Sharks 4-2 |
| 28 | Dec. 3 at Capitals | none | Sharks 2-1 OT |
| 29 | Dec. 5 at Lightning | none | Lightning 8-1 |
| 30 | Dec. 7 at Panthers | none | Panthers 3-1 |
| 31 | Dec. 10 at Hurricanes | Timo Time | Hurricanes 3-2 |
| 32 | Dec. 12 at Blues | MackAttack71 | Sharks 4-3 |
| 33 | Dec. 14 vs Utah | bullslugg | Hockey Club 4-3 |
| 34 | Dec. 17 vs Jets | SJSharksfan39 | Jets 4-3 |
| 35 | Dec. 19 vs Avalanche | anthonyyy | Avalanche 4-2 |
| 36 | Dec. 21 at Oilers | PattyLafontaine | Oilers 3-2 OT |
| 37 | Dec. 23 at Canucks | Timo Time | Canucks 4-3 |
| 38 | Dec. 27 vs VGK | SJSharksfan39 | VGK 6-3 |
| 39 | Dec. 28 vs Flames | none | Flames 3-1 |
| 40 | Dec. 31 vs Flyers | none | Flyers 4-0 |
| 41 | Jan. 2 vs Lightning | none | Sharks 2-1 |
| # | Date / Opponent | SNOG Winner(s) | Result |
| 42 | Jan. 4 vs Devils | LadyStanley | Sharks 3-2 |
| 43 | Jan. 7 vs VGK | weastern bias | VGK 4-2 |
| 44 | Jan. 10 at Utah | none | Hockey Club 2-1 |
| 45 | Jan. 11 vs Wild | weastern bias | Wild 3-1 |
| 46 | Jan. 14 at Red Wings | none | Sharks 6-3 |
| 47 | Jan. 16 at Blue Jackets | weastern bias | Blue Jackets 4-1 |
| 48 | Jan. 18 at Islanders | TheBeard | Islanders 4-1 |
| 49 | Jan. 20 at Bruins | none | Bruins 6-3 |
| 50 | Jan. 21 at Predators | none | Predators 7-5 |
| 51 | Jan. 23 vs Predators | Great Makohead Shork | Predators 6-5 |
| 52 | Jan. 25 vs Panthers | SJSharksfan39 | Panthers 7-2 |
| 53 | Jan. 27 vs Penguins | none | Sharks 2-1 |
| 54 | Jan. 30 at Kraken | none | Kraken 6-2 |
| 55 | Feb. 4 vs Canadiens | none | Canadiens 4-3 |
| 56 | Feb. 6 vs Canucks | none | Canucks 2-1 |
| 57 | Feb. 8 vs Stars | none | Stars 8-3 |
| 58 | Feb. 23 at Flames | Star Platinum | Flames 3-2 |
| 59 | Feb. 24 at Jets | none | Jets 2-1 OT |
| 60 | Feb. 27 at Canadiens | bullslugg | Canadiens 4-3 OT |
| 61 | Mar. 1 at Senators | SJSharksfan39 | Senators 5-3 |
| 62 | Mar. 3 at Maple Leafs | none | Sharks 3-2 SO |
| 63 | Mar. 4 at Sabres | none | Sharks 6-2 |
| 64 | Mar. 6 at Avalanche | none | Avalanche 7-3 |
| Rank | 2024-25 SNOG standings | # of SNOGs |
| 1. | weastern bias | 6 |
| 2 | SJSharksfan39 | 4 |
| T-.3 | bullslugg, PattyLafontaine, Timo Time | 3 |
| T-6. | bluefunnel, coooldude, MackAttack71 | 2 |
| T-9. | anthonyyy, Friday, Great Makohead Shork, LadyStanley, sharks_dynasty, Star Platinum, TheBeard, TheBigDrunkPanda, timorous me | 1 |
Skeksis25
Registered User
Man, I love Toffoli. He has been such a great add for this team. We should put the C on him till Mack is ready for it.
Celly4Celebrini
pray
- Jul 10, 2010
- 5,861
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my biggest hot take is that this team is much better off without Timmy Stu, Byfield or Laf. If there was one year to give away a top 3 unprotected pick, it was 2020.
Sure you could argue that the value of Stutzle would have returned better assets, but i also doubt we have Celebrini, Smith and Dickinson in the future if we had him.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
I'm not saying that we'd be better off if they started earlier. Obviously it worked out that the actual rock-bottom hit when the Sharks were able to get a top, top, top tier cornerstone in Celebrini. But for the people that complain the rebuild is taking too long, the fact is that happened because Doug Wilson kept trying to spackle over the crumbling remains of the cup run with stuff like the Karlsson trade when it was clear that the window had closed. He didn't need to burn it down in 2017 or 2018, but stalling through 2020 and 2021 and trying to compete when it was pretty clear that this core had nothing left to give absolutely extended the descent phase.
It's funny. I don't think anyone had a problem with the trade at the time because we were mainly giving away a former first rounder that didn't look like he was going to amount to much and a first which, lets be honest, NONE of us expected to be any worse than like 23rd or 24th. Hell, that first year I'm sure I wasn't the only one that thought it was finally our year, and the league was certainly doing its part in helping make that a reality. NONE of us would be complaining about that trade if we would have had a championship to show for it.
Many of us though were highly critical of the extension, which was definitely DW's delusional sense of how much longer the window was open. HOWEVER, the extension probably helped with the rebuild in terms of the pieces he ultimately brought back.
- Jul 25, 2007
- 5,286
- 7,819
I generally sorta-agree from my POV -- I understood why he traded for EK, but I will say I didn't love it at the time, seeing as we already had Burnsie and it just didn't feel like another high-end RD was going to be the missing piece. As soon as I saw him on the team, I really didn't love it. Personal bias, but despite any analytics and points, I just never thought EK was the kind of guy who would be a good leader on a winning team, with all the public statements he made and how he carried himself on the ice and bench, and I think that's kind of been proven out over the years. Doesn't matter if I'm wrong, just my opinion.
I've since confirmed my memory is correct by going back and looking at old HFB posts from 2019 offseason. I was absolutely against re-signing him and wanted us to tear it down.
The extension helped with the rebuild insofar as Grier was lucky to offload him and get lucky again with Granlund's resurgence - full marks to Grier but definitely some good fortune involved. If we hadn't re-signed him and had gone into a rebuild then and there, obviously we'd be in a counterfactual world where maybe we draft Stutzle and look like Ottawa today, and it's so far from reality as to be unhelpful to explore. Reality is reality. I'm just glad Grier has done the teardown so textbook, but I am keenly watching to see his offseason because I firmly believe we need to take at least a modest step forward next year.
The only thing that would have changed really is probably not re-signing Hertl, which, again, ended up being a pretty savvy move considering what we turned that into. Outside of that I don't really see how things would have gone any differently. It's not like they made a bunch of other foolish, near-sighted moves after the EK extension. IT was obvious there were signs they saw the writing on the wall that following season when they dumped Dillon and Goodrow at the deadline to recoup some of their draft picks.
