GDT: Game 50 @ Predators 5pm

[Smok3d]

It's on coaching in the sense that he's ultimately responsible like Grier is ultimately responsible for the performance of the players. In terms of what can actually be done within the game about it, it's not really much. The players have to go out there and put the work in to finish the game off. There aren't really coaching adjustments to make when players stop skating, can't defend anything, and can't move the puck effectively.

This is a common theme though. changes need to be made because coaching isn’t helping.

 

[Juxtaposer]

-Young team
-Rookie coach
-Bad defense
-Bad/young goaltending

That's the four ingredients necessary to bake a "can't hold a lead" cake. Sucks, but I'm not concerned about this as a long-term problem.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This is a common theme though. changes need to be made because coaching isn’t helping.

That's because the common theme inevitably comes back to the players on the ice and what they're actually capable of compared to what you actually need from them. The most important of these issues is the ability for our group of blue liners to kill plays in the defensive zone, take the puck back, and transition out of the defensive zone. None of the blue liners are anything beyond average at killing plays, taking the puck, and breaking the puck out. You're not going to outcoach that sort of issue and you can't exactly fix that sort of thing in real time with a trade or something because the talent you'd need and the quantity of the talent you need are not necessarily available.

 

[Timo Time]

More than willing to give Warso the benefit here given a myriad of things that Jux listed on top of whatever illness is running through the team.

However, one major flaw in the system I noticed consistently are odd man rushes against. But more alarming is that they occur while we're in the O-Zone. Too often we have a D-Man pinching in from the blue line without any support or coverage. This could be a personnel issue, communication problem, etc. I lean more towards an aggressive system Warso wants to install that we just lack that backend creativity and talent to compensate for.

We still have veterans throughout the lineup that still lack defensive responsibility. We get guys like Kunin, Goodrow and whoever mixed into the top-6 at times to alleviate that responsibility from the teenagers. Problem is, those guys are just ass.

Biggest shock yesterday though was how do you not call a TO, like at all?

 

[TheBeard]

It's on coaching in the sense that he's ultimately responsible like Grier is ultimately responsible for the performance of the players. In terms of what can actually be done within the game about it, it's not really much. The players have to go out there and put the work in to finish the game off. There aren't really coaching adjustments to make when players stop skating, can't defend anything, and can't move the puck effectively.

Right now the forwards aren’t being told to play ugly hockey. It shows on both ends of the ice and on special teams. Everyone of the young kids wants to make pretty, highlight reel plays. It’s why we’re only getting 20-23 shots a game. Everything needs to be perfect. There is no semblance of ugly. I think that was the hope of bringing in Goodrow but as others have said he’s ass. There seems to be a lack of blue collar work ethic on the ice, and when other teams adjust and put more pressure on our weak D core, the forwards seem like they’re completely lost out there. It’s like they’re told the only way to change that momentum is with an odd man rush on a quick transition the other way.

 

[TheBeard]

Biggest shock yesterday though was how do you not call a TO, like at all?

The only way it makes sense is War wanted the players to gut check themselves and figure it out. They know what they have to do. Theyre just not good at playing in quicksand.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Right now the forwards aren’t being told to play ugly hockey. It shows on both ends of the ice and on special teams. Everyone of the young kids wants to make pretty, highlight reel plays. It’s why we’re only getting 20-23 shots a game. Everything needs to be perfect. There is no semblance of ugly. I think that was the hope of bringing in Goodrow but as others have said he’s ass. There seems to be a lack of blue collar work ethic on the ice, and when other teams adjust and put more pressure on our weak D core, the forwards seem like they’re completely lost out there. It’s like they’re told the only way to change that momentum is with an odd man rush on a quick transition the other way.

Yeah and I think that the onus for ugly hockey falls on the players more than the coaching. The coaches have talked about playing ugly to finish games off and shooting more all season long. When guys like Granlund and Wennberg dust off the puck a lot and don't shoot, it's not surprising to see that trickle to guys like Eklund or Graf or other younger and more inexperienced players. I get that it's a tough pill to swallow but I don't think this issue rises to the level of needing a coaching change. I also think the natural progression of the season where players will get moved will be sufficient for the goals of this season. This was always going to be a tough season looking at the players we're icing. Better than last season was expected and I believe there's still enough here to show an improvement but it was always going to be long odds of it being enough to turn a historically awful team into a non-bottom five competitive team. This season is only truly about getting experience for building block players and I think that's going well enough while maintaining the sort of draft position that will do the most good to get this team to continue to improve from where they are and have been.

 

[TheBeard]

Yeah and I think that the onus for ugly hockey falls on the players more than the coaching. The coaches have talked about playing ugly to finish games off and shooting more all season long. When guys like Granlund and Wennberg dust off the puck a lot and don't shoot, it's not surprising to see that trickle to guys like Eklund or Graf or other younger and more inexperienced players. I get that it's a tough pill to swallow but I don't think this issue rises to the level of needing a coaching change. I also think the natural progression of the season where players will get moved will be sufficient for the goals of this season. This was always going to be a tough season looking at the players we're icing. Better than last season was expected and I believe there's still enough here to show an improvement but it was always going to be long odds of it being enough to turn a historically awful team into a non-bottom five competitive team. This season is only truly about getting experience for building block players and I think that's going well enough while maintaining the sort of draft position that will do the most good to get this team to continue to improve from where they are and have been.

It’s probably a combination of everything and I worry about the bad habits lingering. If the team has no qualms about results I have no issue with War benching vets for not knowing better and making a point that there’s more to hockey than sweet one timers and cross ice passes. That’s also probably why Goodrow and Kunin never get benched. Lack of talent notwithstanding (understatement), the gritty hockey they know how to play is something the kids need to learn how to emulate when the time calls for it.

 

[Wedontneedroads]

Are they?

23-24 after 50 games: 14-32-4, 10RW
24-25 after 50 games: 14-30-6, 10RW

Ahh yes because the only way to measure the development of a rebuilding team is by their record right?

This team is still arguably the worst team in the NHL (maybe not arguably).

They will maybe get out of the bottom 5 next year, maybe flirt with an 8th seed in 2 years, and in 3 years should have their eyes on the playoffs.

Might just want to take a few years off if you are the type that lives and dies with every game. It’s going to be a rough ride, but there is finally a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It’s probably a combination of everything and I worry about the bad habits lingering. If the team has no qualms about results I have no issue with War benching vets for not knowing better and making a point that there’s more to hockey than sweet one timers and cross ice passes. That’s also probably why Goodrow and Kunin never get benched. Lack of talent notwithstanding (understatement), the gritty hockey they know how to play is something the kids need to learn how to emulate when the time calls for it.

I agree with the concern regarding bad habits but that's a tough thing to truly avoid when you're still bad because the talent is bad. I think we just have to sort of hope that between the management, coaching, and the future building blocks of our team that they're able to work their way through it. I have full confidence in Celebrini to be the guy that leads them out of this and be a player with great habits regardless of what's around him but that doesn't mean he isn't going to make some mistakes or develop a bad habit or two to work out of. Everyone else like Smith and any rookies we bring in along the way learning the NHL game are just going to largely have those issues to work through and its impact on the team will be felt on some level and they're going to have to find a way to manage it.

If the most that they do this offseason is replace Granlund, add a top-9 winger, and bring in replacements for Ceci and Rutta that are in the mold of guys like Pionk and Kovacevic then I think there will be fairly significant steps in the right direction next season with Celebrini likely finding ways to be elite, Smith rounding out his game and being stronger, and Askarov getting the net from day one. Those replacements on defense could allow for significantly better defense from the team overall because of better puck management out of those replacements and potentially one or two of Dickinson and Schaefer compared to even just replacing Thrun.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

He’s 100% in over his head and I’m starting to think he was hired partly for that reason. Grier knew it was gonna be as much of a learning experience for him as the kids so he sorta knew (hoped) he wouldn’t have any immediate success.

Imagine giving up 4 to Boston in the third with a lead, saying the same garbage and then repeating the same only worse against a lesser team. It tells me War doesn’t really know how to rally the troops and without any sort of leadership on the ice and veteran leadership off, there’s no reason to expect to see different results or lessons learned this year.

Agreed this loss in particular is on the coaching staff more so than the players. He failed to make adjustments just sat on his timeout when the game started to get away from them and generally just go hummed his way to the collapse. That is one of the worst coaching performance I’ve witnessed in a very long time

 

[TheBeard]

Ahh yes because the only way to measure the development of a rebuilding team is by their record right?

While it’s not the end all measurement, it’s a little alarming that the team replaced Addison, Labanc, Hoffman, Bailey with Celebrini, Toffoli, Wennberg, Wallman, Smith and others and the result is still the same. I get it, we’re not getting blown out as much but still…

 

[TheBeard]

agree with the concern regarding bad habits but that's a tough thing to truly avoid when you're still bad because the talent is bad.

Well that’s, in my opinion the biggest problem so far this season. What are they trying to do? Is it win games? Teach good habits? Adjust? Eklund seems to get benched or at least demoted as does Smith and both respond, but I also see Celebrini out there doing a ton of egregiously dumb things in the name of trying to kickstart the offense, and while I understand his intent, there is still a fine line between that and playing irresponsible hero ball. There have been times he should have been demoted or given a development day, but the team couldn’t because he’s essentially our entire offense.

So again, I ask, what exactly is the goal this season? Is it to develop? Finish last? Try and actually win games?

 

[Star Platinum]

Well that’s, in my opinion the biggest problem so far this season. What are they trying to do? Is it win games? Teach good habits? Adjust? Eklund seems to get benched or at least demoted as does Smith and both respond, but I also see Celebrini out there doing a ton of egregiously dumb things in the name of trying to kickstart the offense, and while I understand his intent, there is still a fine line between that and playing irresponsible hero ball. There have been times he should have been demoted or given a development day, but the team couldn’t because he’s essentially our entire offense.

So again, I ask, what exactly is the goal this season? Is it to develop? Finish last? Try and actually win games?

I think the GM and the coach have different goals which is part of the problem.

 

[Anomie2029]

Ahh yes because the only way to measure the development of a rebuilding team is by their record right?

This team is still arguably the worst team in the NHL (maybe not arguably).

They will maybe get out of the bottom 5 next year, maybe flirt with an 8th seed in 2 years, and in 3 years should have their eyes on the playoffs.

Might just want to take a few years off if you are the type that lives and dies with every game. It’s going to be a rough ride, but there is finally a light at the end of the tunnel.

To be honest with you, the real issue is the manner in which this team is losing. If this was purely meant to be another tank year, then they should encouraged both Celebrini and Smith to stay in college.

This team since December has been worse than last seasons team in terms of record and goal differential is not too dissimilar, so what exactly is the culture being created and developed? I see a coach that’s seemingly not able to motivate players or improve throughout the season. I see a coach that’s seemingly is developing players (outside of Celebrini) to be afraid to try to make plays because they’ll be bench if it doesn’t work.

Based on the talk of team culture and ‘playing the right way’ the only thing being developed is a team of plugs with no individuality allowed.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Well that’s, in my opinion the biggest problem so far this season. What are they trying to do? Is it win games? Teach good habits? Adjust? Eklund seems to get benched or at least demoted as does Smith and both respond, but I also see Celebrini out there doing a ton of egregiously dumb things in the name of trying to kickstart the offense, and while I understand his intent, there is still a fine line between that and playing irresponsible hero ball. There have been times he should have been demoted or given a development day, but the team couldn’t because he’s essentially our entire offense.

So again, I ask, what exactly is the goal this season? Is it to develop? Finish last? Try and actually win games?

There's no real reason why it can't be a little bit of all three of those things. We're developing players. We're not developing everyone we could though. We may or may not finish last but we're in the driver's seat. They obviously are trying to win games but they're not a team currently constructed for that and missing a couple useful players in Sturm and Toffoli and others at various points during the season when they're already a paper thin team depth wise. I think Grier only wanted everyone to get a little better and make progress. I think that they have in a lot of different ways that may not entirely show itself in the standings.

 

[Hodge]

To be honest with you, the real issue is the manner in which this team is losing. If this was purely meant to be another tank year, then they should encouraged both Celebrini and Smith to stay in college.

This team since December has been worse than last seasons team in terms of record and goal differential is not too dissimilar, so what exactly is the culture being created and developed? I see a coach that’s seemingly not able to motivate players or improve throughout the season. I see a coach that’s seemingly is developing players (outside of Celebrini) to be afraid to try to make plays because they’ll be bench if it doesn’t work.

Based on the talk of team culture and ‘playing the right way’ the only thing being developed is a team of plugs with no individuality allowed.

We've literally cut our goal differential in half compared to this point last season.

 

[Pavelski2112]

It's not that the Sharks haven't gotten significantly better

It's that last year the Sharks were a historically bad team

 

[hohosaregood]

It's not that the Sharks haven't gotten significantly better

It's that last year the Sharks were a historically bad team

Yea, can't really argue with the massively improved goal differential compared to last year. Most teams would kill for a +40 goal increase.

Otherwise, I've generally found the veterans to be more disappointing than the kids. There's a lot of really basic defensive stuff that they all screw up constantly like the very basics of getting the puck out of the zone. Too often they're not making clears at the blue line even with clear possession. To me, that's completely on the players.

 

[TheBeard]

Yea, can't really argue with the massively improved goal differential compared to last year. Most teams would kill for a +40 goal increase.

Otherwise, I've generally found the veterans to be more disappointing than the kids. There's a lot of really basic defensive stuff that they all screw up constantly like the very basics of getting the puck out of the zone. Too often they're not making clears at the blue line even with clear possession. To me, that's completely on the players.

Eh. As bad as we were last season, it was particularly those first 12 games that were egregiously ugly, being outscored by 43 in those games. For the rest of the season (70 games) we were outscored an average of a goal and a bit. The team was slightly less historically had once they got that first win.

 

[Anomie2029]

Eh. As bad as we were last season, it was particularly those first 12 games that were egregiously ugly, being outscored by 43 in those games. For the rest of the season (70 games) we were outscored an average of a goal and a bit. The team was slightly less historically had once they got that first win.

This... People have forgotten how horrendously bad the start was last season. They were a -43 after 11 games!

In the 23 games since the start of the December this season the Sharks are 5-17-1 and a -35.

For the months of December and January, the 2023-24 Sharks were 9-16-3 and a -34.

This team is currently worse than the 23-24 team was at the same stage last season.

 

[Wedontneedroads]

While it’s not the end all measurement, it’s a little alarming that the team replaced Addison, Labanc, Hoffman, Bailey with Celebrini, Toffoli, Wennberg, Wallman, Smith and others and the result is still the same. I get it, we’re not getting blown out as much but still…

I personally don't find it alarming at all because I genuinely don't care what the final score of the games are right now. Right now it is all about development, and the semantics between results and outcomes is important here. The outcome may be the same (lots of losing), but the results are completely different (players developing game by game).

Last year there was really no hope except for pray for 1st overall. This year has been a massive breath of fresh air watching some of the hopeful stars of the future develop together.

I get that it's hard for people to jump on the developmental train, but that is what we are going to be riding for the next 2 to 3 years. Don't let your highs get too high, and don't let your lows get too low. Have to be in it for the long haul.

To be honest with you, the real issue is the manner in which this team is losing. If this was purely meant to be another tank year, then they should encouraged both Celebrini and Smith to stay in college.

This team since December has been worse than last seasons team in terms of record and goal differential is not too dissimilar, so what exactly is the culture being created and developed? I see a coach that’s seemingly not able to motivate players or improve throughout the season. I see a coach that’s seemingly is developing players (outside of Celebrini) to be afraid to try to make plays because they’ll be bench if it doesn’t work.

Based on the talk of team culture and ‘playing the right way’ the only thing being developed is a team of plugs with no individuality allowed.

As a season ticket holder I would have rioted if they kept Smith and Celebrini in the NCAA for another year. They finished 1st and 3rd in scoring. What is the point of going back? Celebrini is almost ppg as an 18 yr old, and Smith is finally catching up. Smith needs to physically develop more, but his vision is starting to shine through. You could maybe make an argument for Smith starting in the AHL, but he would probably have gone back to BC if they offered him that.

$100 says this current roster is 60%+ different when the Sharks finally start competing again. I just don't care what Goodrow, Kunin, Delandrea, Grundstrum, Sturm, Thrun, Ceci, or any other plugs are doing this year because they aren't part of the future. You can only play the hand you are dealt. The Sharks simply need better cards.

The big question is will some of those cards we have drawn over the past few years turn out to be aces or jokers. If we completely miss on all the top prospects in the system right now then I will fully start panicking, but for now I am enjoying watching some youngsters put up 4 goals in one period and not concerning myself with their inability to hold a lead.

 

[Dicdonya]

I personally don't find it alarming at all because I genuinely don't care what the final score of the games are right now. Right now it is all about development, and the semantics between results and outcomes is important here. The outcome may be the same (lots of losing), but the results are completely different (players developing game by game).

Last year there was really no hope except for pray for 1st overall. This year has been a massive breath of fresh air watching some of the hopeful stars of the future develop together.

I get that it's hard for people to jump on the developmental train, but that is what we are going to be riding for the next 2 to 3 years. Don't let your highs get too high, and don't let your lows get too low. Have to be in it for the long haul.

Who has developed this year? Like honestly who has gotten better as the year has gone on?

Smith hasn't, Celebrini looks basically the exact same as he did in his first few games, none of our defenders have improved, if anything our defense is starting to slide backwards. None of our vets have improved, except maybe someone like Kunin looks better this year compared to last.

I agree development is the name of the game right now, but that is why I am not really pleased with what I am seeing from Warsofsky thus far, because to me, no one is noticeably progressing or developing on this team, and if anything this team is getting worse not better as the year has gone on.

I fail to see how the objective you are putting so much stock in, is actually being delivered this year.

 

[Anomie2029]

I personally don't find it alarming at all because I genuinely don't care what the final score of the games are right now. Right now it is all about development, and the semantics between results and outcomes is important here. The outcome may be the same (lots of losing), but the results are completely different (players developing game by game).

Last year there was really no hope except for pray for 1st overall. This year has been a massive breath of fresh air watching some of the hopeful stars of the future develop together.

I get that it's hard for people to jump on the developmental train, but that is what we are going to be riding for the next 2 to 3 years. Don't let your highs get too high, and don't let your lows get too low. Have to be in it for the long haul.



As a season ticket holder I would have rioted if they kept Smith and Celebrini in the NCAA for another year. They finished 1st and 3rd in scoring. What is the point of going back? Celebrini is almost ppg as an 18 yr old, and Smith is finally catching up. Smith needs to physically develop more, but his vision is starting to shine through. You could maybe make an argument for Smith starting in the AHL, but he would probably have gone back to BC if they offered him that.

$100 says this current roster is 60%+ different when the Sharks finally start competing again. I just don't care what Goodrow, Kunin, Delandrea, Grundstrum, Sturm, Thrun, Ceci, or any other plugs are doing this year because they aren't part of the future. You can only play the hand you are dealt. The Sharks simply need better cards.

The big question is will some of those cards we have drawn over the past few years turn out to be aces or jokers. If we completely miss on all the top prospects in the system right now then I will fully start panicking, but for now I am enjoying watching some youngsters put up 4 goals in one period and not concerning myself with their inability to hold a lead.

I have zero issues with being development focused, but this isn't a team that is developing anything positive. My whole argument is this team has better talent on it than last season, but since December this team has been playing worse than the 23/24 Sharks - more regulation losses, worse goal differential.

My comment about Celebrini and Smith developing another year in college was if the focus was to get 1st overall again, it's just wasting an ELC year on their contract and surrounding them in a failure culture. My real concern is that this club has no idea how to develop because they're prioritising the wrong things. They keep talking about playing 'the right way', but it's really stifling any development of prospects outside of Celebrini because plugs like Goodrow and Kunin are the examples of it. I don't want Goodrow to be the archetype for which the Sharks are developing players on. The fact the club just claimed another plug off waivers just reinforces that fact.

A big part of the reason Tampa were so successful was because of later round prospects developing. They didn't focus development on using a 4th liner as what the player should be - they embraced what made that player good and encouraged it, built on it. The Sharks simply don't.

The Sharks can only play the hand they are dealt - but the reality is that their hand is better than what they had last season, but they're not improving.

 

[Lebanezer]

I think the GM and the coach have different goals which is part of the problem.

Ego is probably the biggest issue for both of them and their individual goals for the season. I would venture that their overarching goal for the season was not to be embarrassed professionally and how it would reflect on them. One naively believed he could coach the team to respectability with good thoughts and joy. Might have been possible with a better roster, but the other tried to avoid embarrassment by stuffing the team with Weatherbodies. Grier absolutely knew the team would be bad, but he didn't want to risk the potential embarrassment by playing younger guys already in the system, so he went with assured embarrassment by grabbing a bunch of veteran plugs with intangibles and gutz. We're 50 games in, and aside from Eklund, maybe Walman and Smith (who is clearly part of the future), no one with the potential to be part an important part of the team going forward or in some cases even been given a chance to show they could be an important part of the future, has shown significant growth,. I'm not including Celebrini because "he's having it."