GDT: Game #43: Montreal vs Utah HC - 7:00pm MST - Utah16, Arizona61

[Jakey53]

What should BA do differently?

Again, I didn't start following the team until this offseason, but looking at the draft since he took over, at least in the first 2 rounds, he's done pretty well over all and there doesn't seem to be any big misses so far given their position.

He made some solid moves to rebuild the defense but the team has had some brutal injury luck. Having Durzi/Marino all year I think would have made a big difference.

Is Sergachev a super high end #1D? No, but he does a good job overall and those guys are impossibly difficult to acquire and so far it looks to have been a good trade.

My biggest gripe would be the overall roster construction and general lack of identity. I can see what the idea was so a lot of this is on the players under performing (3rd line specifically) but they lack a true #1C. Cooley is doing well overall but he's still 21 and Hayton seems to be a 3C at best so you really have limited C depth. Layer in the overall miserable performance of the 3rd line for most of the year and you can see why the team struggles. So yes, that's on BA but from what I've heard the 3rd line last year was dominate so why change it?

I'm not trying to be a big BA defender or say he's done everything right because at the end of the day the roster construction is on him, but I lay blame more at the feet of AT for the way the team has played. We constantly seem to come out flat, the line combos have made no sense at times, and the penalties are often lazy and undisciplined. We don't play with any real bite or physicallity except to match what other teams are doing to us which often leads to more undisciplined penalties. Despite the stats, the Power play is anemic at best and they can't seem to hold ANY zone time.

The new team/city and NHL in Utah has worn off for me. I'm invested and officially frustrated with this team and what feels like a lack of bringing their best night in and night out. That's a coaching/player issue. If you are going to make a change, it's at coach before you replace the GM and I'd be curious to see how the team would respond. I'm not saying it's time to make a change, you need to be patient given the injuries, but if you bring AT back next year and they struggle again you gotta make a move.

Oh and if Delta could figure out how to run a f***ing in arena expierence that would be great too. The players sing our praises, but as a season ticket holder the crowd feels quiet far too often. Last night you could finally feel the frustration coming out. The music is horrendous and they do so little to get the crowd fired up when it's quiet. Lot's of room for improvement there in my opinion. Great example was the Veggie Penalty shot save. Crowd starts a veggie chant but the DJ is playing some dumbass song at full volume that drowned everyone out and they are doing random crowd shots on the screen. Perfect change to put "Veg-y" on the big board and get the crowd chanting in unison.

Good post

 

[SjMilhouse]

Good post

Thanks, I've been pretty quiet on this sub forum because it's not super active and I'm still a die hard Sharks fan so I can only do so much HFBoards in a day...but the last few home games have broken me and so it felt like a good time to emotionally post after that game last night.

 

[Jakey53]

BA took over a a team with a .527 win percentage, 5 years later, this season, we are at .50 win percentage, I think there should be more progress by now. BA wasted the first year evaluating, didn't do anything, then he took a year to trade OEL, and almost 2 years to trade Chych. These decisions pushed the rebuild back by 18-24 months. If this was year 3 of the rebuild, we are on course, its not.

It's great that we have all this young talent developing but we also gave up, Geekie, Moser, Garland, Chych, DVO and Ghost. We gave up plenty of talent to get what we have today. Is the potential talent we have better, no doubt it is, how much better is up for debate.

Our play right now is not good, 2-9 last 11 games at a critical point in the year. Is it the players not performing, easy to blame them. Is it coaching, lots of penalties when guys are behind the play, line combinations, etc. Or, is it lack of talent and a misconstructed roster.

BA says we are exactly where we should be, we are young and still growing, we have had injuries. I am not so sure of that. I think it might be cover for BA just like it takes 8-10 years to build a championship contender. No other team would stand for a GM with 5 years in a row of no playoffs and a coach with 4 years in a row of no playoffs, they would both be fired.

I think the owner and team President need to take a hard look at the results and progress of the BA/Bear show this summer. I am mixed on both, the results so far are not in their favor, I don't think either is great and I don't think they are bad for sure either, lots of factors to look at in these decisions.

I say let the year play out. Give them lots of rope. See if we have any cream in the organization.

Thanks, I've been pretty quiet on this sub forum because it's not super active and I'm still a die hard Sharks fan so I can only do so much HFBoards in a day...but the last few home games have broken me and so it felt like a good time to emotionally post after that game last night.

How do you think most feel in Arizona after 20 yrs. of futility.

 

[SjMilhouse]

I say let the year play out. Give them lots of rope. See if we have any cream in the organization.


How do you think most feel in Arizona after 20 yrs. of futility.

I can't imagine. I used to joke on the Sharks board that none of the posters could actually handle a true rebuild. Then we blew it up and we already have people who are frustrated and it's like...guys we are in year 2 of a full tear down, have some patience it will be better in the long run than trying to rush it and ending up like Buffalo. You need several top 3-5 picks or some insane luck in the later rounds/via trade which is far less likely than hitting on a few cornerstone draft picks.

 

[cobra427]

Valid points. Like I said, I didn't follow the team much until now so I can understand frustrations with delaying the rebuild but who knows what impact, if any, prior ownership had in that decision (maybe there is reporting that says otherwise, I don't know).

San Jose as an example didn't fully blow it up until Grier took over despite the fact the should have blown it up a year or two earlier because of ownership (from what we understand at least). We realistically still need a top 3 this year, top 5 next year, and then it's time to start seeing them rise in the standings. So from my end, Grier will have 5 years in the role before I expect to see marked improvement and that's with a similar wasted year like BA had given he joined right before the 2022 draft.

Caveat the rest of this post with the fact that I am pro doing as much of a tear down as you can. I love what San Jose has done and wish they did it sooner but we got Celebrini so I'm happy. You need top 5 and realistically top 3 picks in successive years without insane prospect luck to build a true contender. I also focus primarily on the impact of 1st round picks because after that it's a crap shoot on development/guys hitting. The .527 win % means nothing to mean if he immediately sells off guys over the next 2 years to rebuild.

Geekie/Moser were moved to get a #1D to help make the team competitive and transition out of the rebuild after the modified tear down since BA took over. A 2nd for Durzi and 2nd for Marino are also moves to try to start competing and support the younger roster. Getting a first for Dvorak that turned into Geekie and ultimately Serg was a good move. I can't speak to the timing on Chych, but again you get Daniil But out of it and seems like a good trade to me. Moving him a year sooner maybe doesnt get that return or, at most, speeds up 1 player by a year. OEL/Garland gets you Guenther who should be far better than Garland and is 21 vs 28...again maybe you get a guy a year sooner but Guenther is a pretty solid add compared to what was available in 2020 and seems to be performing better than you'd expect at this point. In terms of performance of who you gave up, I don't see those guys making a huge impact and you run the risk of not getting some solid young prospects to build a legit core/contender vs a middling 1 and done playoff team that doesn't draft high enough to really improve.

I didn't intend this to turn into a BA is untouchable rant, and if anything it helped me realize my expectations were probably too high this year in general. I do think the team as constructed is playing below their potential which is why I'm frustrated and that goes back to the players performance and the coach over BA. Again, looking at how I view Grier, I don't see how BA doesn't deserve at least another year if not 2 for guys he's drafted to develop and to fix the issues with the forwards. I don't even know if a coaching change makes sense, I just struggle to see any type of identity on this team and I'd start with the coach for that.

Edit: One last thought on the players/coach which goes back to my post on the season thread. Shoot the f***ing puck. Stop trying to make this perfect 3 pass play down low and throw the puck on net. It's the NHL, if you are afraid to go to the net you arent going to score very often. Same goes to the D, shoot the puck once in a while and try for a rebound. Instead we seem content to putz around in the Ozone for 10 seconds only to throw the puck away on some low % pass and immediately lose possession. That to me is a coaching/player issue

I get all of your points, and I understand why BA made all of his moves. I think his moves were fine, I don't think they were brilliant or that he is a brilliant GM, I think they are ok moves. I am mixed on BA and Bear. If either were brilliant, the team would have a better record by now. This team has yet to have a better record then the last 2 years of Rick Tocchet 5 years ago, most fans thought he was a bad coach, then he is coach of the year a few years later. We have more talent now too.

I am not certain if its a coaching issue right now or if its players under performing or if its where we are really at talent wise. I think there should be more progress by now.

I hope the team kills it the next 39 games and we make the playoffs, I really do. What if we faulter a little more and are at 77 points for the year, then what? How do we feel about BA/Bear then? How many more years do they get, they are both long tenured now.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

OEL/Garland gets you Guenther who should be far better than Garland and is 21 vs 28...again maybe you get a guy a year sooner but Guenther is a pretty solid add compared to what was available in 2020 and seems to be performing better than you'd expect at this point. In terms of performance of who you gave up

Here's the details surrounding the OEL trade:

Armstrong's hiring was announced Sept. 17, 2020. The draft that year was on October 6th, 2020 (COVID.) That means that BA had less than 1 month to trade OEL for picks in the 2020 draft.

OEL had a full no movement clause which he agreed to waive for only two teams - VAN or BOS. There was no competition to acquire OEL and both teams knew they had an advantage over Armstrong that they failed to capitalize on. Probably because BA was patient and made it clear he wasn't going to just give OEL away for cheap.

Vancouver didn't even have a 1st or 2nd round pick in 2020 to offer for OEL anyways. They had already traded them away.

BA wasn't allowed to participate in the 2020 draft on behalf of the Coyotes because of a conflict-of-interest clause in his contract with St. Louis. Interim GM Steve Sullivan made all the 2020 picks at the draft without any influence from BA or BA's scouting staff. (These are the same guys that drafted the controversial Mitchell Miller only to rescind the pick a short time later when they started to get bad publicity.) There's no way BA trades OEL for picks he can't spend himself to start his rebuild.

OEL also used his NTC to block an in-season trade. It had to be done in the offseason.

 

[SjMilhouse]

Here's the details surrounding the OEL trade:

Armstrong's hiring was announced Sept. 17, 2020. The draft that year was on October 6th, 2020 (COVID.) That means that BA had less than 1 month to trade OEL for picks in the 2020 draft.

OEL had a full no movement clause which he agreed to waive for only two teams - VAN or BOS. There was no competition to acquire OEL and both teams knew they had an advantage over Armstrong that they failed to capitalize on. Probably because BA was patient and made it clear he wasn't going to just give OEL away for cheap.

Vancouver didn't even have a 1st or 2nd round pick in 2020 to offer for OEL anyways. They had already traded them away.

BA wasn't allowed to participate in the 2020 draft on behalf of the Coyotes because of a conflict-of-interest clause in his contract with St. Louis. Interim GM Steve Sullivan made all the 2020 picks at the draft without any influence from BA or BA's scouting staff. (These are the same guys that drafted the controversial Mitchell Miller only to rescind the pick a short time later when they started to get bad publicity.) There's no way BA trades OEL for picks he can't spend himself to start his rebuild.

OEL also used his NTC to block an in-season trade. It had to be done in the offseason.

This makes way more sense. I totally forgot covid impacted the draft...I was wondering why they hired him when they did. Thanks!

 

[AJ171181]

Valid points. Like I said, I didn't follow the team much until now so I can understand frustrations with delaying the rebuild but who knows what impact, if any, prior ownership had in that decision (maybe there is reporting that says otherwise, I don't know).

San Jose as an example didn't fully blow it up until Grier took over despite the fact the should have blown it up a year or two earlier because of ownership (from what we understand at least). We realistically still need a top 3 this year, top 5 next year, and then it's time to start seeing them rise in the standings. So from my end, Grier will have 5 years in the role before I expect to see marked improvement and that's with a similar wasted year like BA had given he joined right before the 2022 draft.

Caveat the rest of this post with the fact that I am pro doing as much of a tear down as you can. I love what San Jose has done and wish they did it sooner but we got Celebrini so I'm happy. You need top 5 and realistically top 3 picks in successive years without insane prospect luck to build a true contender. I also focus primarily on the impact of 1st round picks because after that it's a crap shoot on development/guys hitting. The .527 win % means nothing to mean if he immediately sells off guys over the next 2 years to rebuild.

Geekie/Moser were moved to get a #1D to help make the team competitive and transition out of the rebuild after the modified tear down since BA took over. A 2nd for Durzi and 2nd for Marino are also moves to try to start competing and support the younger roster. Getting a first for Dvorak that turned into Geekie and ultimately Serg was a good move. I can't speak to the timing on Chych, but again you get Daniil But out of it and seems like a good trade to me. Moving him a year sooner maybe doesnt get that return or, at most, speeds up 1 player by a year. OEL/Garland gets you Guenther who should be far better than Garland and is 21 vs 28...again maybe you get a guy a year sooner but Guenther is a pretty solid add compared to what was available in 2020 and seems to be performing better than you'd expect at this point. In terms of performance of who you gave up, I don't see those guys making a huge impact and you run the risk of not getting some solid young prospects to build a legit core/contender vs a middling 1 and done playoff team that doesn't draft high enough to really improve.

I didn't intend this to turn into a BA is untouchable rant, and if anything it helped me realize my expectations were probably too high this year in general. I do think the team as constructed is playing below their potential which is why I'm frustrated and that goes back to the players performance and the coach over BA. Again, looking at how I view Grier, I don't see how BA doesn't deserve at least another year if not 2 for guys he's drafted to develop and to fix the issues with the forwards. I don't even know if a coaching change makes sense, I just struggle to see any type of identity on this team and I'd start with the coach for that.

Edit: One last thought on the players/coach which goes back to my post on the season thread. Shoot the f***ing puck. Stop trying to make this perfect 3 pass play down low and throw the puck on net. It's the NHL, if you are afraid to go to the net you arent going to score very often. Same goes to the D, shoot the puck once in a while and try for a rebound. Instead we seem content to putz around in the Ozone for 10 seconds only to throw the puck away on some low % pass and immediately lose possession. That to me is a coaching/player issue

Cant agree at all, but i like your effort!!

 

[cobra427]

Here's the details surrounding the OEL trade:

Armstrong's hiring was announced Sept. 17, 2020. The draft that year was on October 6th, 2020 (COVID.) That means that BA had less than 1 month to trade OEL for picks in the 2020 draft.

OEL had a full no movement clause which he agreed to waive for only two teams - VAN or BOS. There was no competition to acquire OEL and both teams knew they had an advantage over Armstrong that they failed to capitalize on. Probably because BA was patient and made it clear he wasn't going to just give OEL away for cheap.

Vancouver didn't even have a 1st or 2nd round pick in 2020 to offer for OEL anyways. They had already traded them away.

BA wasn't allowed to participate in the 2020 draft on behalf of the Coyotes because of a conflict-of-interest clause in his contract with St. Louis. Interim GM Steve Sullivan made all the 2020 picks at the draft without any influence from BA or BA's scouting staff. (These are the same guys that drafted the controversial Mitchell Miller only to rescind the pick a short time later when they started to get bad publicity.) There's no way BA trades OEL for picks he can't spend himself to start his rebuild.

OEL also used his NTC to block an in-season trade. It had to be done in the offseason.

Its speculation on what or if OEL blocked a trade, we don't know that.

BA hired Septemper 2020
OEL traded July 2021-it doesn't take a year to trade any player or get the best return
Chych traded March 2023-it doesn't take 2 1/2 years to trade a player

This why we are an 80 point team 5 years later, BA didn't act quick enough in the first year.

 

[Jakey53]

Here's the details surrounding the OEL trade:

Armstrong's hiring was announced Sept. 17, 2020. The draft that year was on October 6th, 2020 (COVID.) That means that BA had less than 1 month to trade OEL for picks in the 2020 draft.

OEL had a full no movement clause which he agreed to waive for only two teams - VAN or BOS. There was no competition to acquire OEL and both teams knew they had an advantage over Armstrong that they failed to capitalize on. Probably because BA was patient and made it clear he wasn't going to just give OEL away for cheap.

Vancouver didn't even have a 1st or 2nd round pick in 2020 to offer for OEL anyways. They had already traded them away.

BA wasn't allowed to participate in the 2020 draft on behalf of the Coyotes because of a conflict-of-interest clause in his contract with St. Louis. Interim GM Steve Sullivan made all the 2020 picks at the draft without any influence from BA or BA's scouting staff. (These are the same guys that drafted the controversial Mitchell Miller only to rescind the pick a short time later when they started to get bad publicity.) There's no way BA trades OEL for picks he can't spend himself to start his rebuild.

OEL also used his NTC to block an in-season trade. It had to be done in the offseason.

BA was brought into a difficult position no doubt. So basically BA took one year to evaluate the situation, which is fine, but I would have done it with a new coach. So this is really year 4 of the rebuild. Are we expecting too much? Look at Buffalo, Detroit, and Ottawa, all started their rebuild earlier and are still shitting the bed. Montreal and Columbus started the same time as Utah, and both are around the same in pts. as Utah. Frustrating for fans is an understatement, but it is what it is.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Its speculation on what or if OEL blocked a trade, we don't know that.

BA hired Septemper 2020
OEL traded July 2021-it doesn't take a year to trade any player or get the best return

No, it's not speculation.

You can't keep ignoring the context surrounding these trades to hold on to your flawed narrative so you can have something more to blame Armstrong for. Acting like you know better than the guy that dedicated his entire life to hockey and worked his way up to a GM position is silly. BA was "in the know" you were not. That is where the speculation comes in to play here... from you!

Ekman-Larsson traded to Canucks by Coyotes for three players, No. 9 pick | NHL.com

"It was reported Oct. 5, 2020, that Ekman-Larsson had a self-imposed deadline of Oct. 9 for the Coyotes to trade him, and the Canucks and Boston Bruins were on his list of teams he would play for. Ekman-Larsson, who had a no-move clause in his contract, told Swedish website Hockeysverige.se on Oct. 28 that he neither requested a trade nor wanted to leave Arizona."

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Chych traded March 2023-it doesn't take 2 1/2 years to trade a player

Here's some more context (Which has been pointed out before by myself and others.)

Chychrun was made available for trade in January of 2022. Traded on March 1, 2023. That's 15 months. Your argument is so flawed that you have to double the time it really took, to defend it.

Chychrun missed 8 months of that time due to injury. Missed the last 24 games (and the TDL) of 2022 and also missed the first 16 games of 2023. Injured players don't get traded often. Especially ones with a big history of injury. It was being reported that teams wanted to wait for him to return and show he can stay healthy before moving out assets for him.

He was moved just before the 2023 TDL which is when most in-season trades occur and also when teams are more likely to overpay for a player.

It's pure speculation on your part (along with a willingness to ignore important details) to think that the trade could've been made faster for a return that was just as good. Nothing to base that off of. Nothing.

Edit:

If you actually provided some supporting information for once, maybe you could change my mind.

 

[cobra427]

Here's some more context (Which has been pointed out before by myself and others.)

Chychrun was made available for trade in January of 2022. Traded on March 1, 2023. That's 15 months. Your argument is so flawed that you have to double the time it really took, to defend it.

Chychrun missed 8 months of that time due to injury. Missed the last 24 games (and the TDL) of 2022 and also missed the first 16 games of 2023. Injured players don't get traded often. Especially ones with a big history of injury. It was being reported that teams wanted to wait for him to return and show he can stay healthy before moving out assets for him.

He was moved just before the 2023 TDL which is when most in-season trades occur and also when teams are more likely to overpay for a player.

It's pure speculation on your part (along with a willingness to ignore important details) to think that the trade could've been made faster for a return that was just as good. Nothing to base that off of. Nothing.

Edit:

If you actually provided some supporting information for once, maybe you could change my mind.

I'm not trying to change your mind. There are always reasons to wait and make changes in any business, I have run, fixed, and exited several successfully, its time value, BA has extended the rebuild because of it. You have to be methodical but waiting too long is usually a bad idea when you have an asset for sale.

As an example, Maccelli/Crouse are having down years. If they are not part of the future, we should trade them sooner then later, like at TDL or this summer. We shouldn't wait a year or two to see if they bounce back so we can get a better return.

BA saw how the Blues were built, he is trying to replicate it, I hope he succeeds, this is likely more of his learned skillset. The time to tear down was a failure for sure, this was not his skillset, thats why we are behind schedule in the rebuild. I am mixed on his rebuild so far, we might be misconstructed, but I really amd pulling for him, Bear and the team to succeed.