GDT: Game 43: Minnesota Wild@ Phoenix Coyotes | 1/9/14 7:00 p.m. | FSA

[zerekstar]

I agree PhoPhan about the points would not have won us the game last night with just one goal but I think it is also fair to say, the team plays better when they know the goalie has their back. You will never build a winning team if you don't have a goalie who can steal a few games for you. Smith doesn't do much of that. How many times must they come from behind to get the win because of soft goals?

I don't think Smith wants to play badly or that he doesn't care but I do agree with playing the hot hand. When Edmonton had their dynasty, they split the work pretty much equally between two goalies and it worked really well.

The other fear is, Greiss is showing he is a good goalie and other teams are going to notice so if we want to keep him, we have to give him a reason to want to stay. Every pro hockey player wants ice time. He is no different and he has earned the right.

 

[cobra427]

Only 3 wins in his last 17 games....wow. did not know it was that bad.

I think this is strictly a Tip/coaching decision on who plays in net. I know Tip says the players determine ice time but you have to wonder now. I have never questioned Tip as I think he is one of the best in the NHL. But I do remeber our series against Detroit in the playoffs. The first one, Bryz played ok, not great. In the next series, he did not play well from game one, all the way through 4. I felt like Tip stuck with him longer then he should have and our back up should have gotten a start, or pull Bryz after a few cheap goals. I felt then that he stayed with Bryz for too long.

I feel the same way now. Greiss has been effective, and he threw our first shut out last game. Greiss should be getting starts until he plays poorly or gives up 3 goals or more.

Smith has zero shut outs this year. Last night, all 3 goals could have been stopped. I can't remember the last time Smith gave up a goal or 2 and stopped a bunch of shots he should not have stopped. Shut outs, 2 goal or less games with some great saves is how I would say a goal tender is playing well and giving us a chance to win.

Right now it has to be the merit system based on results. If you win a game, you start the next, that simple. Tip will loose the players confidence in his fairness if he keeps starting Smith.

 

[Jamieh]

My post was supposed to come with a smiley that I forgot to add. I agree with your point just saw the humor in the winning goal you proposed!!

Good catch. Point still stands. You're not going to win many games scoring only one goal.

 

[rt]

We were essentially dominant in the first two periods.

Mike Smith gave away the most important game of the year. The team was good. Smith is dog ****.

 

[mesamonster]

It could be management like you say AP. Probably the thing that makes me the most angry is nothing is being done besides sending people up and down from the AHL.

And I 2nd JT's idea.

Trades are difficult for every team this year which would explain the lack of movement throughout the league! Blame it on the salary cap and the limited space that teams have to take on new salary! GMDM has usually been pretty astute at finding talent to add to the mix. Cut him a break, I`m sure he is trying his best without much success.

Minnesota is in a similar bind with all of their injuries and little to no salary space to make any meaningful moves.

 

[zerekstar]

and yet they have won 4 in a row.

 

[CC96]

Could have been the worst game I've seen from Mike Smith and Keith Yandle as Coyotes respectively.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I don't get why Smith continues to play. He is not the goaltender we need him/expect him to be. Greiss has been playing better than him, and we have won with him in net. I just don't get what else needs to happen to get Greiss more opportunites.

I agree with this somewhat. I think Greiss should have seen about 3-5 additional games thus far on the year, but the team will go with the goalie who gives the best chance to win and stick with system, and right now, that is still Smith.

I'm still not sure why people are crazy about the first or second goals for that matter. The frist goal was a turnover that went right into the slot area. From my vantage point at my seat, I could see the puck squirt out, and when I looked up at the net, there were 2 or 3 bodies completely covering Smith. If there are 2 bodies directly in front of the line of the puck to the goal, a goalie is taught to come out high on their arc, as the puck is more likely to be knocked down, and/or not even make it to the net. So, I have less of an issue with what Smith did there, b/c he was playing the percentages that anybody who rips a shot high is likely to have it hit off the players in front, and by Smith staying low, he can cover or eliminate 2nd chance opportunities if he doesn't see the puck on the first shot. Unfortunately, there was still room on one side, and it was put over Smith.

The 2nd goal, Yandle pinched late and set up a 2-on-1. He couldn't necessarily commit to either the shot or the pass across, so he may have been slightly out of position there, but he shouldn't have to be put in that position in the first place.

Bottom line - even when we allow fewer shots in a game, teams are still getting far too many quality chances. We had a high quantity of shots, and got unlucky that 1 or 2 more did not go in. But the remaining shot quality for us was far less. How many odd-man breaks did we get in the game? Eventually, when you give up those types of chances, you are less likely to win.

I actually blame our spacing and positioning for limiting opponents chances (or helping our own cause) - for the most part, I see us losing far more 50-50 battles for pucks, and it is because our players are either out of position to corral the puck OR the reactions (talking about players like Klesla) are at a significantly slower rate than their opponents. We look like we are chasing the puck far too often, and it will affect us later in games. In fact, a perfect example was Minny had their 3rd goal off the interesting puck off the boards - we actually had a similar play happen, yet no one was in the middle. Or, as a spacing example, we had a glorious TO in which two of our players got to the puck at the same time (I think one was Vermette and one was Ribeiro). Even though Vermette was skating up to grab the puck, Ribeiro came from behind the net and looked like he was going to turn and fire, then realized that his own teammate was there. If Ribeiro stops and lets Vermette shoot, he has a rebound opportunity short side. Or, Ribeiro talks and makes the play on the puck, in which Vermette moves about 2 feet to his left, and Ribeiro has an assist with Vermette scoring a tap-in goal.

We outplayed Minny for 2 periods, and then everything turned around. Quality and quantity of shots for Minny was better. We made mistakes b/c we got tired. The 3rd goal is one of those bad bounces that we can't lay much thought into.

 

[IPreferPi]

Ugh, I'm 2-8 now when in attendance at Coyotes home games since the Tippett era. :-/ (but at least one of those wins was Game 5 against the Preds back in 2012)

I'd be surprised if attendance cracked 10K last night. Quite a few Wild fans in the house and in my section 228. One guy kept yelling "Get back in your net, Smith" every time Smitty went out to play the puck. I'd like to think he jinxed him lol.

Thought we played a pretty competent game for two periods. Got a lot of shots on goal and Backstrom made a few strong saves on some scoring opportunities. Didn't think Smith was at fault for the first goal, miscommunication/turnover between Yandle and Morris in the prime slot area and it looked like Yandle screened Smith a bit.

But then the wheels came off in the 3rd - although it was just a matter of time before Smith got one of those freak bounces on dump-ins that burn him for his eagerness in playing the puck. Still absolutely support him being an aggressive puck handler.

I'm still a Smitty supporter, but I agree with many of you that Tippett needs to go with the hot hand and play Greiss. He didn't have an atrocious game, but he's obviously not in beast mode. And we need him to be.

 

[letowskie]

I agree with this somewhat. I think Greiss should have seen about 3-5 additional games thus far on the year, but the team will go with the goalie who gives the best chance to win and stick with system, and right now, that is still Smith.

I'm still not sure why people are crazy about the first or second goals for that matter. The frist goal was a turnover that went right into the slot area. From my vantage point at my seat, I could see the puck squirt out, and when I looked up at the net, there were 2 or 3 bodies completely covering Smith. If there are 2 bodies directly in front of the line of the puck to the goal, a goalie is taught to come out high on their arc, as the puck is more likely to be knocked down, and/or not even make it to the net. So, I have less of an issue with what Smith did there, b/c he was playing the percentages that anybody who rips a shot high is likely to have it hit off the players in front, and by Smith staying low, he can cover or eliminate 2nd chance opportunities if he doesn't see the puck.

The 2nd goal, Yandle pinched late and set up a 2-on-1. He couldn't necessarily commit to either the shot or the pass across, so he may have been slightly out of position there, but he shouldn't have to be put in that position in the first place.

Bottom line - even when we allow fewer shots in a game, teams are still getting far too many quality chances. We had a high quantity of shots, and got unlucky that 1 or 2 more did not go in. But the remaining shot quality for us was far less. How many odd-man breaks did we get in the game? Eventually, when you give up those types of chances, you are less likely to win.

I actually blame our spacing and positioning for limiting opponents chances - for the most part, I see us losing far more 50-50 battles for pucks, and it is because our players are either out of position to corral the puck OR the reactions (talking about players like Klesla) are at a significantly slower rate than their opponents. We look like we are chasing the puck far too often, and it will affect us later in games. In fact, a perfect example was Minny had their 3rd goal off the interesting puck off the boards - we actually had a similar play happen, yet no one was in the middle. Or, as a spacing example, we had a glorious TO in which two of our players got to the puck at the same time (I think one was Vermette and one was Ribeiro). Even though Vermette was skating up to grab the puck, Ribeiro came from behind the net and looked like he was going to turn and fire, then realized that his own teammate was there. If Ribeiro stops and lets Vermette shoot, he has a rebound opportunity short side. Or, Ribeiro talks and makes the play on the puck, in which Vermette moves about 2 feet to his left, and Ribeiro has an assist with Vermette scoring a tap-in goal.

We outplayed Minny for 2 periods, and then everything turned around. Quality and quantity of shots for Minny was better. We made mistakes b/c we got tired. The 3rd goal is one of those bad bounces that we can't lay much thought into.

I don't think I begrudge him too much on the individual goals. All of them could have been stopped, had he anticipated a little better on the plays. But I don't expect any goalie to have 100% svpct on all stoppable shots.

The problem is that he is playing like a at best average NHL goalie, yet he is making one of the highest salaries on the team, and is being paid like a no1 tender on a contender. Especially given our financial situation, we can't have someone like that taking up such large part of our financial resources. It would be far better to retain someone like Greiss and another similar level goalie (1b starter/great backup), and not lose significant performance for the goaltending tandem. That would free up a lot of space for us to make the appropriate acquisition right now, or to sign a needed UFA wing that we desperately need. He simply is not worth the level that he's playing at, especially not for a team like ours.

 

[Atrkl]

and yet they have won 4 in a row.

After losing 6 in a row

 

[BUX7PHX]

I don't think I begrudge him too much on the individual goals. All of them could have been stopped, had he anticipated a little better on the plays. But I don't expect any goalie to have 100% svpct on all stoppable shots.

The problem is that he is playing like a at best average NHL goalie, yet he is making one of the highest salaries on the team, and is being paid like a no1 tender on a contender. Especially given our financial situation, we can't have someone like that taking up such large part of our financial resources. It would be far better to retain someone like Greiss and another similar level goalie (1b starter/great backup), and not lose significant performance for the goaltending tandem. That would free up a lot of space for us to make the appropriate acquisition right now, or to sign a needed UFA wing that we desperately need. He simply is not worth the level that he's playing at, especially not for a team like ours.

But how do you anticipate a Yandle TO? Or pucks that are making their way into the slot?

Smith is at a .910 save percentage this year. His career average is a .913. So, he is playing at an expected level for him. He is giving up the same amount of goals per game this year as he was when he was sent down to the minors in 2010-11. Yet his save percentage is higher by .011 (he was at .899 in 2011-12). I take that to mean that he is still playing at a pretty good level, but the quantity and quality of shots faced is making him look far worse than what he is. He had the same save percentage last year, with 5 shutouts. With no shutouts to his credit this year, I'd say that the injuries and (relative) youth on defense has led to far better chances for the opposition. Plus, the team that we ice now has more of an offensive minded game, when you consider that Ribeiro is replacing players like Gordon, Fiddler, and Winnik from years past - all guys known more for defense than offense.

Plain and simple, he's a system goalie, and right now, our defensive system is breaking down in front of him.

 

[kihekah19*]

living in the east i get to watch a bunch of sens games and hear a lot of how their team plays as one of my best friends is a sens fan. Remember craig anderson's unreal performance last year? Well this year he started off absolutely terrible, so they threw lehner in the net for a couple games. Lehner played great, anderson was forced to step his game up or lose his starting job. At one point anderson had a 3.42 gaa and .897 save percentage. To compare, lehner had a 2.54 gaa and .925 save percentage. Lehner finally slipped up and let in 5 goals against boston. Anderson got the start the next game and he has now gone 5-0-2 in his past 7 games and the sens have gone on a tear.

Anderson is our smith. He had his one good year, and is struggling. Lehner is our greiss. Came into the season as a backup role, but has played more than well enough to get starts. The thing is, paul maclean had no problem throwing lehner in there with consecutive starts to make anderson sweat. Tip on the other hand has yet to do that. Greiss needs consecutive starts to make smith sweat. Maybe then smith will step up his game, and we'll go on a tear like the sens have once they got their starter back into form. Or maybe greiss plays well in consecutive games and wins the net for awhile and we go on a tear with him. Either way, i'd like to see the ottawa situation unfold here. Greiss needs 2, 3 maybe 4 starts in a row like lehner got.

absolutely!

Hard to believe an NHL coach is making such a blunder.

 

[letowskie]

But how do you anticipate a Yandle TO? Or pucks that are making their way into the slot?

Smith is at a .910 save percentage this year. His career average is a .913. So, he is playing at an expected level for him. He is giving up the same amount of goals per game this year as he was when he was sent down to the minors in 2010-11. Yet his save percentage is higher by .011 (he was at .899 in 2011-12). I take that to mean that he is still playing at a pretty good level, but the quantity and quality of shots faced is making him look far worse than what he is. He had the same save percentage last year, with 5 shutouts. With no shutouts to his credit this year, I'd say that the injuries and (relative) youth on defense has led to far better chances for the opposition. Plus, the team that we ice now has more of an offensive minded game, when you consider that Ribeiro is replacing players like Gordon, Fiddler, and Winnik from years past - all guys known more for defense than offense.

Plain and simple, he's a system goalie, and right now, our defensive system is breaking down in front of him.

A pure system goalie should not be making what he is making.

 

[yotesreign]

Ugh, I'm 2-8 now when in attendance at Coyotes home games since the Tippett era. :-/ (but at least one of those wins was Game 5 against the Preds back in 2012)

I'd be surprised if attendance cracked 10K last night. Quite a few Wild fans in the house and in my section 228. One guy kept yelling "Get back in your net, Smith" every time Smitty went out to play the puck. I'd like to think he jinxed him lol.

Thought we played a pretty competent game for two periods. Got a lot of shots on goal and Backstrom made a few strong saves on some scoring opportunities. Didn't think Smith was at fault for the first goal, miscommunication/turnover between Yandle and Morris in the prime slot area and it looked like Yandle screened Smith a bit.

But then the wheels came off in the 3rd - although it was just a matter of time before Smith got one of those freak bounces on dump-ins that burn him for his eagerness in playing the puck. Still absolutely support him being an aggressive puck handler.

I'm still a Smitty supporter, but I agree with many of you that Tippett needs to go with the hot hand and play Greiss. He didn't have an atrocious game, but he's obviously not in beast mode. And we need him to be.

If its any consolation, they are now 1-1 when I go topless (no cap or toque covering my head) and 1-1 when I'm not there and otherwise 10-7 at home. I went topless the night TG got his shutout, so I went topless last night. I've decided...after analyzing available data...that what I do or wear in the stands... has nothing to do with whether we win or lose.

I hate to think that I or many of us know better than the guy who is paid to make those decisions - but heck, I'd have liked to see Tommy in net last night, and Saturday night.

Oh well... that's why they don't pay me the big bucks.

 

[HerrDonut]

If its any consolation, they are now 1-1 when I go topless (no cap or toque covering my head) and 1-1 when I'm not there and otherwise 10-7 at home. I went topless the night TG got his shutout, so I went topless last night. I've decided...after analyzing available data...that what I do or wear in the stands... has nothing to do with whether we win or lose.

Superstitions

 

[cobra427]

But how do you anticipate a Yandle TO? Or pucks that are making their way into the slot?

Smith is at a .910 save percentage this year. His career average is a .913. So, he is playing at an expected level for him. He is giving up the same amount of goals per game this year as he was when he was sent down to the minors in 2010-11. Yet his save percentage is higher by .011 (he was at .899 in 2011-12). I take that to mean that he is still playing at a pretty good level, but the quantity and quality of shots faced is making him look far worse than what he is. He had the same save percentage last year, with 5 shutouts. With no shutouts to his credit this year, I'd say that the injuries and (relative) youth on defense has led to far better chances for the opposition. Plus, the team that we ice now has more of an offensive minded game, when you consider that Ribeiro is replacing players like Gordon, Fiddler, and Winnik from years past - all guys known more for defense than offense.

Plain and simple, he's a system goalie, and right now, our defensive system is breaking down in front of him.

Dm has made past comments about goalies maturing and being at there best at 30 or older. Smiths stats from his career or years ago are not what we paid for or are expecting. His last 2 years is why he got the money. First year was great, last year was less then great, but he did have 5 shut outs last year, he was overworked, and he was injured for most of the year off and on. If you take last year and his 5 shut outs, cut him a break for being injured and over worked, I can see why DM paid him the money. And this is why his expectations are higher then his career numbers.

The system goalie thing is nonsense. We used to get out shot and outplayed and we would still win. We win because Smith was great and the other goalie was not as great or played poorly. Now we have the opposite. We out play and out shoot the other team but still loose. Smith is sub par and the other goalie is much better.

Forget the wins and losses for a moment and I would say when Smith has played, the other goalie has out played him 2/3 or 3/4 of the time. That has to change and be 50/50 or 2/3 Smith versus the other goalie. We need wins now, so bottom line is Greiss might be the short term answer...

 

[RR]

I don't think it's fair to criticize Smith when two of the four goals were empty netters.

 

[ScottsdaleYote]

I don't think it's fair to criticize Smith when two of the four goals were empty netters.

I'd argue the first one was an empty netter too, considering he had already belly flopped before the guy shot...

Smith is being paid to be a .925 or better goalie. He is being paid to lead us to the playoffs, not to a lottery pick. I don't think anyone is saying sit him forever - let's just make him the backup as long as Greis plays well, and hopefully that will motivate him...and the thing is, he hasn't played well at any point this year. Even when we were winning it was in spite of his poor performance. These aren't a fluky run of bad games or anything...

 

[CC96]

I'd argue the first one was an empty netter too, considering he had already belly flopped before the guy shot...

Smith is being paid to be a .925 or better goalie. He is being paid to lead us to the playoffs, not to a lottery pick. I don't think anyone is saying sit him forever - let's just make him the backup as long as Greis plays well, and hopefully that will motivate him...and the thing is, he hasn't played well at any point this year. Even when we were winning it was in spite of his poor performance. These aren't a fluky run of bad games or anything...

There's been times, where he has played brilliantly this year. The problem is that he has been far too inconsistent.

 

[zerekstar]

He's being paid well enough to be a goalie who should be capable of stealing games occasionally.

 

[RR]

I'd argue the first one was an empty netter too, considering he had already belly flopped before the guy shot...

Smith is being paid to be a .925 or better goalie. He is being paid to lead us to the playoffs, not to a lottery pick. I don't think anyone is saying sit him forever - let's just make him the backup as long as Greis plays well, and hopefully that will motivate him...and the thing is, he hasn't played well at any point this year. Even when we were winning it was in spite of his poor performance. These aren't a fluky run of bad games or anything...

I was being a smartass. I wasn't defending Smith in any way. We do need to start Greiss.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

I don't think it's fair to criticize Smith when two of the four goals were empty netters.

I'm not calling you a troll, but this is one funny troll post.

Yes, let's get Greiss to start a few more games.

 

[elnewby]

Hey guys, Took in the game last night, and had a great experience. I will be adopting the Coyotes as my #2 team. Is there always that many bad bounces off the glass/boards? I thought you guys outplayed us in the 1st period for sure, somehow we squeaked one in. Don't think either team really outplayed the other real badly, just some bad bounces/turnovers changed the game. Speaking of which, noticed Yandle had a tough game. You guys looking to deal him? What would you be looking to get in return? I think the Wild are in a position to move some of the younger players as we need another top 4 dman, Yandle would be a great pair with Suter. Anyways, good luck this year guys I really enjoyed myself yesterday.

 

[Etch]

For the people trying to defend Smith by saying that we apparently gave up more scoring chances than the other team...

Let's just realize that the Wild's best two scoring chances last night were probably the Yandle giveaway and following shot, which was still from pretty far out, and a very routine 2 on 1 which was a weak shot short side. Both were obviously goals.
This is a 60 minute NHL hockey game and that's the worst we gave up...

Take a loot at some of the 40 shots we put on Backstrom at the other end. I guarantee we had a lot better chances and even looked pretty dangerous on a few powerplays.

The other teams goaltender significantly outplayed ours and that's happening way too often for the contract that a team in our situation gave to Smith. Obviously we have to score more than 1 and some fault lies with the guys for not finishing, but this could still EASILY have been a 1-0 win for us and I dare say Greiss would have stopped all three of those goals.

I'm starting to get very, very, very worried about this team going forward the next 5 seasons we are stuck with this clown trying to stop shots.