GDT: Game 34: Sharks vs Flames 7:30pm NBCSCA

[one2gamble]

These games have quickly went from entertaining loses to painful to watch. I think we all expected a crater come January anyway.

 

[Alaskanice]

Sharks should be ashamed. They fought back with good play then fell back into making huge mistakes.
Somehow, they need to tip the scales towards stronger teamwork.

 

[WTFetus]

No, that was the Thornton trade.

I know this might be a little tongue-in-cheek even with your history, but if we're talking about one of the worst moves in DW's tenure, I think there could be a pretty valid argument with the Erik Karlsson trade being it.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

I have a lot of appreciation for Evgeni Nabokov (and I've come to see him as less of a playoff failure than conventionally perceived), but the organization has to cut professional ties. He's been awful at identifying/developing goaltending talent.

He’s been great with Reimer but I ageee he doesn’t understand modern day goaltending. They really need to steal Mitch Korn from the islanders

 

[OrrNumber4]

I know this might be a little tongue-in-cheek even with your history, but if we're talking about one of the worst moves in DW's tenure, I think there could be a pretty valid argument with the Erik Karlsson trade being it.

In a sense of the "value" of a trade, you're completely correct. But there's this more "want of a nail" analysis; what path does a trade set the team on?

There is a contrived argument that the Karlsson trade could be good in the long term. If the Sharks don't make that trade, their core today probably consists of Stutzle, Norris, Couture, Hertl, and Burns...a good core, perhaps a playoff-worthy one, but IMO not one that's SC-caliber. As Burns declined, the Sharks would be missing 2 elite superstars and would be in an even worse position of getting those star players. DW and DWjr are still with the organization, and the team never does that full rebuild it actually needs.

That's my issue with the Thornton trade; despite the fantastic value, it led to a situation where the Sharks were deeply committed to a player who could drag them to the playoffs but effectively block them from a championship.

He’s been great with Reimer but I ageee he doesn’t understand modern day goaltending. They really need to steal Mitch Korn from the islanders

Reimer was a finished product when he came to the Sharks; I am 80% sure he is good despite Nabokov, not because of him.

 

[Pavelski2112]

No, that was the Thornton trade.

There are plenty of things that you could argue ruined the franchise long-term - picking Falloon instead of Niedermayer in 1991, not trading for Pronger, not signing Chara in 2006, signing Karlsson long-term after 2019

The Thornton trade is absolutely not one of them

 

[Pavelski2112]

In a sense of the "value" of a trade, you're completely correct. But there's this more "want of a nail" analysis; what path does a trade set the team on?

There is a contrived argument that the Karlsson trade could be good in the long term. If the Sharks don't make that trade, their core today probably consists of Stutzle, Norris, Couture, Hertl, and Burns...a good core, perhaps a playoff-worthy one, but IMO not one that's SC-caliber. As Burns declined, the Sharks would be missing 2 elite superstars and would be in an even worse position of getting those star players. DW and DWjr are still with the organization, and the team never does that full rebuild it actually needs.

That's my issue with the Thornton trade; despite the fantastic value, it led to a situation where the Sharks were deeply committed to a player who could drag them to the playoffs but effectively block them from a championship.


Reimer was a finished product when he came to the Sharks; I am 80% sure he is good despite Nabokov, not because of him.

The Sharks were two wins away from a Cup, and made it to the third round a number of times, and Thornton was a huge part of those runs. If Thornton doesn't come to San Jose, who says they have long-term success at all? Maybe instead of being a relatively successful team that became close to a Cup a number of times, they turn into Arizona. That's the problem with all this butterfly effect speculation; counterfactuals are impossible to prove.

 

[OrrNumber4]

The Sharks were two wins away from a Cup, and made it to the third round a number of times, and Thornton was a huge part of those runs. If Thornton doesn't come to San Jose, who says they have long-term success at all? Maybe instead of being a relatively successful team that became close to a Cup a number of times, they turn into Arizona. That's the problem with all this butterfly effect speculation; counterfactuals are impossible to prove.

Thornton was always a big reason the Sharks never got farther than they did; he was frequently a no-show in the playoffs.

Sure, anything is possible. But given the ownership and the fanbase, I imagine that if the Sharks didn't acquire Thornton, they are probably a basement team for a few years, and who knows what players they acquire with those draft picks.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Thornton was always a big reason the Sharks never got farther than they did; he was frequently a no-show in the playoffs.

Sure, anything is possible. But given the ownership and the fanbase, I imagine that if the Sharks didn't acquire Thornton, they are probably a basement team for a few years, and who knows what players they acquire with those draft picks.

Once again, we've had this argument ad nauseum so I won't go into the first point.

Maybe they end up losing in the first round for another decade, maybe they just barely miss the playoffs every year and turn into the mid-2010s Panthers. Are the Sharks even still in San Jose if they don't have the consistent playoff revenue from Thornton's tenure? Who knows.

 

[Alaskanice]

Joe Thornton was the best Shark in their history. Undisputed and bar none. How they acquired him pales in what he brought. Incredible play, great teammate, fabulous ambassador and a big reason for fans of this team.
All that and he wasn’t drafted by us. That is unheard of.
Anyone who looks for a negative when it comes to Jumbo is short-sighted. That is my opinion. We are lucky to have had him pull on a teal sweater.

 

[Hodge]

You can’t trade your way to a Stanley Cup. Especially under a salary cap, core players need to be drafted not traded for.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

In a sense of the "value" of a trade, you're completely correct. But there's this more "want of a nail" analysis; what path does a trade set the team on?

There is a contrived argument that the Karlsson trade could be good in the long term. If the Sharks don't make that trade, their core today probably consists of Stutzle, Norris, Couture, Hertl, and Burns...a good core, perhaps a playoff-worthy one, but IMO not one that's SC-caliber. As Burns declined, the Sharks would be missing 2 elite superstars and would be in an even worse position of getting those star players. DW and DWjr are still with the organization, and the team never does that full rebuild it actually needs.

That's my issue with the Thornton trade; despite the fantastic value, it led to a situation where the Sharks were deeply committed to a player who could drag them to the playoffs but effectively block them from a championship.


Reimer was a finished product when he came to the Sharks; I am 80% sure he is good despite Nabokov, not because of him.

When he came to San Jose from Toronto is when he finally started to find consistency, he went Florida and well that didn’t go to well. He was also third string in Carolina. Reimer and nabakovs playing styles are very similar, the exception being Reimer is way better at butterfly and his down mobility than nabby ever was. You can see it in his game he’s all about being in position and that’s a huge Nabby trademark. Prior to that Reimer was a much more active goalie, he went from big explosive pushes to smaller shuffles. So disagree with you on that one

Joe Thornton was the best Shark in their history. Undisputed and bar none. How they acquired him pales in what he brought. Incredible play, great teammate, fabulous ambassador and a big reason for fans of this team.
All that and he wasn’t drafted by us. That is unheard of.
Anyone who looks for a negative when it comes to Jumbo is short-sighted. That is my opinion. We are lucky to have had him pull on a teal sweater.

I was shocked to hear what Ian White had to say about jumbo

 

[Pavelski2112]

You can’t trade your way to a Stanley Cup. Especially under a salary cap, core players need to be drafted not traded for.

Tell that to St. Louis.

 

[Alaskanice]

When he came to San Jose from Toronto is when he finally started to find consistency, he went Florida and well that didn’t go to well. He was also third string in Carolina. Reimer and nabakovs playing styles are very similar, the exception being Reimer is way better at butterfly and his down mobility than nabby ever was. You can see it in his game he’s all about being in position and that’s a huge Nabby trademark. Prior to that Reimer was a much more active goalie, he went from big explosive pushes to smaller shuffles. So disagree with you on that one


I was shocked to hear what Ian White had to say about jumbo

I have no idea what you’re referring to there. Can you help me out there?

 

[Hodge]

Tell that to St. Louis.

St. Louis augmented their drafted core with a big trade. Doug Wilson’s team building strategy was to trade for the entire core. From Thornton to Campbell to Boyle to Heatley to Burns to Kane to Karlsson, he spent his entire tenure acquiring top of the lineup players who were already nearing the end of their primes instead of drafting and developing these players.

I have no doubt that if they let him he would still be trying to build the Sharks through trades and subsequent expensive re-signings today instead of acting with a modicum of patience and restraint.

 

[Pavelski2112]

St. Louis augmented their drafted core with a big trade. Doug Wilson’s team building strategy was to trade for the entire core. From Thornton to Campbell to Boyle to Heatley to Burns to Kane to Karlsson, he spent his entire tenure acquiring top of the lineup players who were already nearing the end of their primes instead of drafting and developing these players.

I have no doubt that if they let him he would still be trying to build the Sharks through trades and subsequent expensive re-signings today instead of acting with a modicum of patience and restraint.

Couture wasn't a Doug pick? Or Pavelski? Or Vlasic/Braun? Any number of guys who were major core pieces for the Sharks for many years were picks that the Sharks made.

Did Doug rely on trades maybe a little too much? Sure, I can't entirely argue with that, but to say his entire MO was building through trade is false.

 

[Chinaski89]

When he came to San Jose from Toronto is when he finally started to find consistency, he went Florida and well that didn’t go to well. He was also third string in Carolina. Reimer and nabakovs playing styles are very similar, the exception being Reimer is way better at butterfly and his down mobility than nabby ever was. You can see it in his game he’s all about being in position and that’s a huge Nabby trademark. Prior to that Reimer was a much more active goalie, he went from big explosive pushes to smaller shuffles. So disagree with you on that one


I was shocked to hear what Ian White had to say about jumbo

Pray tell

 

[Cas]

He’s been great with Reimer but I ageee he doesn’t understand modern day goaltending. They really need to steal Mitch Korn from the islanders

I mean, Reimer hasn't really been any better with the Sharks than he was with his prior teams - a roughly league-average goalie who shouldn't have a starter's workload, but who is very nice as a backup or 1B. He had a nice run last year, and has been noticably worse this year but is still broadly in the range of "average" on a qualitative basis.

I don't know that Reimer is really a testament to Nabokov's abilities as a coach - they signed a guy and got exactly what they should have expected.

I guess that does look better than Dubnyk/Hill/Kahkonen/Melnichuk.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

I have no idea what you’re referring to there. Can you help me out there?

guessing hes referring to this

Sounds like Jumbo was more intense then maybe others think of him

 

[tahoesharksfan]

These games have quickly went from entertaining loses to painful to watch. I think we all expected a crater come January anyway.

Yep, and I while I expect it I don't look forward to watching things get worse....

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

guessing hes referring to this

Sounds like Jumbo was more intense then maybe others think of him

Yup, pretty decent interview overall

 

[Alaskanice]

guessing hes referring to this

Sounds like Jumbo was more intense then maybe others think of him

Appreciate you sharing this.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Tell that to St. Louis.

Nothing but head shots to their opponents the last 10 games of those playoffs.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Tell that to St. Louis.

They are one of a handful of exceptions.

guessing hes referring to this

Sounds like Jumbo was more intense then maybe others think of him

My issue wasn't with Thornton's intensity, but his performance.

That interview really paints White in a horrible light. Check out the Strauss Mann interview on that challenge; to be polite that kid is not a bright bulb.