Post-Game Talk: Game #25: Blackhawks 2, Canucks 1 - Six goals? Nah, one goal will do fine...

[Wetcoaster]

I guess we really do see things differently. this team cannot compete right now with the top teams in the west in terms of puck possession or speed.

The stats say otherwise. The Canucks generally dominate time of possession and shots.

 

[StringerBell]

Luongo as a player is not playing at his best, but that does not mean he's the reason our record has been bad. We would have needed a shutout to get another win this month, and if Luongo had recorded one he would lead the league in shutouts but we'd only have one extra win, which is hardly enough to merit assigning a significant portion of blame onto him for our slump.

Again, reasons our record has been bad are not Highlanders -- there can be more than one.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

That bolded phrase is false. The Canucks are 6th in close score Fenwick %. The Canucks also won CF% battle last night with 54.8% vs. 44.6%. Possession is with Canucks. Execution and conversion is not.

We've played from behind so often this past while I'm not surprised to see those stats. Right now we aren't at a level to compete with LA, Anaheim, Chicago.

 

[Bleach Clean]

We've played from behind so often this past while I'm not surprised to see those stats. Right now we aren't at a level to compete with LA, Anaheim, Chicago.

Fenwick close % takes into account score effects. With regards to possession, you are wrong.

 

[arsmaster*]

Yup. And while you have been far more PC in your stance of differing opinions, I find it hilarious that a secondary issue can be completely glossed over like this. Its not the issue but it is in fact an issue.

@arsmaster: Well noted. I look forward to the next Sedin argument from Y2K and your subsequent response. The irony here is amazing.

I'm embarrassed for you bleach. Thought you were smart enough to have a discussion without bringing up the Sedin's.

This place is embarassing.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Fenwick close % takes into account score effects. With regards to possession, you are wrong.

As I understand the stat, being down by 1 offers negligible differential of scoring effects.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Again, reasons our record has been bad are not Highlanders -- there can be more than one.

When the difference between Luongo and almost anyone else is so minimal - at most 1 extra win if he has one more shutout to lead the league - it seems very illogical to fault the goaltender for our losing streak.

What I think people have trouble distinguishing between is that just because Luongo is not playing at his best doesn't mean that if he were our record would be much better.

 

[luongo321]

When the difference between Luongo and almost anyone else is so minimal - at most 1 extra win if he has one more shutout to lead the league - it seems very illogical to fault the goaltender for our losing streak.

What I think people have trouble distinguishing between is that just because Luongo is not playing at his best doesn't mean that if he were our record would be much better.

Yup, even if he keeps it to a 1-1 tie, we still lose in the shootout because our players suck. I don't mind higgins, santorelli, burrows or richardson in the shootout though. Keep the twins away from the shootout.

 

[opendoor]

Fenwick close % takes into account score effects.

Sort of, but if a team consistently plays 1-2 goals behind like the Canucks seem to have been, it can still be biased by score effects. The Canucks are 6th in overall in Fenwick close, but they're 13th when tied and 9th when up 1. That suggests to me that they're numbers are a little inflated from playing from behind more than other good teams.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'm embarrassed for you bleach. Thought you were smart enough to have a discussion without bringing up the Sedin's.

This place is embarassing.

Save the personal stuff arsmaster. We have had a mod in this thread already commenting on the same.

Edit: The original comment I made was in the context of irrational support/derision of the Sedins as it now reclected in talks about Lu. I'm not sure why you responded to that post, knowing the context, only to say it was brought up here without reason? You responded to a point with that context already in mind? Very strange response.

I see no value in your _posting_ on Luongo. You have not brought any insight that hasn't been rightly refuted and dismissed. If there's anything new or pertinent Im all eyes/ears.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Sort of, but if a team consistently plays 1-2 goals behind like the Canucks seem to have been, it can still be biased by score effects. The Canucks are 6th in overall in Fenwick close, but they're 13th when tied and 9th when up 1. That suggests to me that they're numbers are a little inflated from playing from behind more than other good teams.

Their Fenwick % while down 2 is 47.95% (24th) and 57.57 (7th) while down 1. I think they would be higher in both categories if score effects had them outpacing their opponents by a large margin in order to make up the difference.

For Fenwick tied they are listed at 10th with 51.76% (not sure where 13th is listed?). As an aside, I still think they outpace BOS in this regard?

 

[unbridledid]

I know this pic is from the previous game, but when I see it, all I can think of is that Kassian just seems out of it. I see frustration/sadness written all over that guy (my opinion). I kinda worry about him.

Terrible trade... kyle beach 2.0.

Depth wins cups....the Nucks don't have it. Torts can load up the first line and they will be pounded down by round 2. I do feel for lou as he will never get a fair shake going forward.

It's a slow decline..and as a Hawks fan I can't say I am happy as we have moved on to bigger things. The blues are the team we feel is our rival. But you always compete hard against us and I look forward to Dec 20.

 

[SnapIt]

The stats say otherwise. The Canucks generally dominate time of possession and shots.

Those stats consist of keeping the puck along the boards and shooting from bad angles.

 

[NuxFan09]

Even though there may be literally hundreds of posts explaining why 'the offense' and 'Luongo' are different issues, you still fail to grasp the extremely simple concept.

I thought the 'fault' pie might help, but to no avail.

This. People have said countless times that Luongo is not THE issue with this team but the guy just doesn't get it. He won't be happy unless Luongo is not brought up at all, except in a positive light.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Again, reasons our record has been bad are not Highlanders -- there can be more than one.

While I agree, we can do little in regards to Luongo even if we wanted to. Therefore, I prefer to focus attention on what we might actually be able to improve, namely our offense. Of course, we can only do that if Gillis willing to pay the actual cost to acquire an impact player and not continue to hope bargains pan out.

 

[NuxFan09]

The goaltending as much as people want to call it a "problem" is not a problem at all for me.

The goaltending we are getting is good enough to be winning with.

Unfortunately we can't put pucks in the net.

I'm not sure I can speak for y2k, but in my eyes the fact we're even talking about goaltending when we've lost 6 of 7 while only scoring more than 1 goal occurred on one occasion.

Goaltending could be better but it should be good enough.

Note that bleach. Put it in your records.

I actually think the only reason people are discussing the goaltending is that y2k's take is too frustrating to ignore.

 

[StringerBell]

When the difference between Luongo and almost anyone else is so minimal - at most 1 extra win if he has one more shutout to lead the league - it seems very illogical to fault the goaltender for our losing streak.

What I think people have trouble distinguishing between is that just because Luongo is not playing at his best doesn't mean that if he were our record would be much better.

Yeah okay, I totally disagree but this convo is going nowhere. When you lose 6 of your last 9 games by either a single goal or in a shootout there are 6 games where your record would be better if your goalie let in one less goal.

Once again I'm going to try to extricate myself from this conversation by saying I love Lu but the team needs him to be good instead of average.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Yeah okay, I totally disagree but this convo is going nowhere. When you lose 6 of your last 9 games by either a single goal or in a shootout there are 6 games where your record would be better if your goalie let in one less goal.

Once again I'm going to try to extricate myself from this conversation by saying I love Lu but the team needs him to be good instead of average.

If Luongo had done half of what you suggests (3 shut outs, which would be the exact number to put us in a playoff position), he'd be on pace for roughly 15 shutouts, which would be the most in an NHL season since 1970.

 

[Bleach Clean]

If Luongo had done half of what you suggests (3 shut outs, which would be the exact number to put us in a playoff position), he'd be on pace for roughly 15 shutouts, which would be the most in an NHL season since 1970.

Yeah okay, I totally disagree but this convo is going nowhere. When you lose 6 of your last 9 games by either a single goal or in a shootout there are 6 games where your record would be better if your goalie let in one less goal.

Once again I'm going to try to extricate myself from this conversation by saying I love Lu but the team needs him to be good instead of average.

He's not saying every game needed to be different. Pick any one and the record would be different, obviously.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Those stats consist of keeping the puck along the boards and shooting from bad angles.

No they do not as was explained above.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I actually think the only reason people are discussing the goaltending is that y2k's take is too frustrating to ignore.

Hopefully now such generic Luongo discussion can take place in a dedicated thread created for just such a purpose.

Player Discussion: Roberto Luongo Discussion - NOT Game Specific.

When a GDT/PGT becomes infested with non-game specific Luongo posts, the Mods now have a thread to move said posts upon request.

It remains to be seen if it will work. The best laid plans of mice and men and all that..

 

[mriswith]

Edit: The original comment I made was in the context of irrational support/derision of the Sedins as it now reclected in talks about Lu. I'm not sure why you responded to that post, knowing the context, only to say it was brought up here without reason? You responded to a point with that context already in mind? Very strange response.

I see no value in your _posting_ on Luongo. You have not brought any insight that hasn't been rightly refuted and dismissed. If there's anything new or pertinent Im all eyes/ears.

The only irrational talk about Luongo in this thread is trying to relate his performance to our win/loss record.

I don't think anyone has an issue with saying he needs to be better, as there has definitely been a drop-off in his play since last year so far. I haven't seen anyone claim he's been much more than adequate.

Trying to take that fact and then state that this has played anything but a very minor role in our record to date is what most are taking issue with.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

He's not saying every game needed to be different. Pick any one and the record would be different, obviously.

Not good enough to be in a playoff position. Even with two extra wins, that puts him on pace for 12 shutouts, a number not seen since 2007

 

[The Bob Cole]

So, what happened to the new, gritty, hard-working team we were promised under Torts?

Team looks for the most part very strong defensively, but there's no commitment to doing what is needed in the offensive zone. I rarely see anyone in front of the net banging for rebounds. And two of the players that should fit that role (Kassian, Booth) are fairly useless.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The only irrational talk about Luongo in this thread is trying to relate his performance to our win/loss record.

I don't think anyone has an issue with saying he needs to be better, as there has definitely been a drop-off in his play since last year so far. I haven't seen anyone claim he's been much more than adequate.

Trying to take that fact and then state that this has played anything but a very minor role in our record to date is what most are taking issue with.

I place the PP scoring as the primary issue at hand. After that, Luongo's performance. Last, erratic ES offense that is still good overall, but not timely. Second place, to me, is not minor, but it's still second place. Make of that what you will.

Not good enough to be in a playoff position. Even with two extra wins, that puts him on pace for 12 shutouts, a number not seen since 2007

I see you have continued to form an argument that was not made. Also, in the regular season, it's possible to tie an opponent in order to get a point. Is this an option for Luongo?