Post-Game Talk: GAME # 14 - Blues def. Canucks: 4-3 (SO) (Kesler, Henrik, Raymond)

[Virtanen2Horvat]

Here's the Kesler play that's being debated as an embellishment. Credit to Fred Murtz from the St Lou boards for the vid. Looks blatant from the first two angles and looks like a bit of a sell job from the third one. Still think it's a pretty typical play that you see practically every game. Could have been a no call, but would never be called a dive IMO. Still, not something you want to see from Kesler of all people.

That was a nasty hit.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Caught the last period, What happened to Kassian, was he injured or benched?

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Caught the last period, What happened to Kassian, was he injured or benched?

Benched. In his last few games as well as today, he has had some real rough shifts in his own zone. I was on side with his demotion. Watching Weise get the second line spot, on the other hand...

 

[Wizeman*]

he was benched because he wants to stand around and watch instead of do what he does best. Get his back into the game. Throw a shoulder into someone. Open up the ice for his line mates.

When he stands around like a deer in the headlights he turns into a fourth liner. This is not unexpected. Hes 22. I dont expect him to blossom until hes 25. Its going to be a very long learning curve with him, like it was with Bertuzzi.

 

[Jyrki]

Benched. In his last few games as well as today, he has had some real rough shifts in his own zone. I was on side with his demotion. Watching Weise get the second line spot, on the other hand...

I hope the Sedins motivate him into going HAM again.

 

[vanuck]

Scoring chances were 20-11 for the Canucks. Overall, that's obscene. We smoked them.

We got a lot of luck early in the season with unsustainable good goaltending and shooting percentages. Now, that's evening out and we're losing games we should have won to make up for games we should have lost.

I was nervous about this team early on without Kesler, but performances like this convince me we're for real. I have a good feeling going into Chicago. If this trend continues, I say go all in on the deadline.

I thought we had the better of the scoring chances in this game; didn't think it would be by that big of a margin though. Bodes well for the future perhaps. Liked how we controlled the play and had them trapped in their own zone for stretches throughout.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

^^^ Thanks

 

[Pip]

Couple notes since I got home from the game not too long ago and just read through the GDTs and if I wasn't there I would of thought it was a 5-0 game for the Blues lol. They dominated the second and we dominated the third and OT, did we play up to what we are capable of? No! but it was hardly a poor effort.

Kassian played horrible, this wasn't a made one bad play and got demoted this was a failed to get the puck out of the zone multiple times, made horrible passes and didn't play physically. Edler played ok? don't know why everyone is ****ing on him, he made a couple errors but he also made some really nice plays. Thought Higgins played pretty below-average and got demoted because of it.

I understand the need to move Raymond and Hansen with Kesler because Higgins and Kassian could not preform, but in the process you completely ****ed over Schroeder by giving him two linemates playing horribly. I really hope this doesn't make the coaching staff see him in a bad light when Booth returns. I thought Garrison played a good game...

Luongo played ok, didn't win nor lose us the game, but his worst game so far imo. Would only be fair to go back to Schneider seeing as though that should be the plan unless Lui played lights out tonighty. Shootouts are gimmicky and I hate them, but maybe we have to go out and get a Hanzus-type player or try out some new guys. Kassian should of shot, I don't care how bad he's playing. Also give Schroder a shot maybe?

*** Burrows needs to stop using the forhand backhand almost every time! And if he doesn't use it, he does some dumb move that only a Kane/Datsyuk could pull off and fails. Going slow in the shootout is sooooo bad. This obviously included Kesler's embarrassment of an attempt.

 

[Pip]

Benched. In his last few games as well as today, he has had some real rough shifts in his own zone. I was on side with his demotion. Watching Weise get the second line spot, on the other hand...

I think there are three things you can do with Kassian imo and you would have to know him as our player (like I hope our coaches do) because all players can respond differently.

1) Healthy Scratch- Get him fired up and let him know he won't be spoon fed a roster spot just because he was traded for Cody
2) Play him with the Sedins- completely opposite, lift his confidence by putting him with the red hot Sedins, put burrows Kesler and Booth and keep our third line like it is.
3) Play him on the fourth line, but tell him to jus focus on being physical out there and get into some fights, maybe once he gets more emotionally involved he will play his way up the lines. (kind of what hartikainen had to do in Edmonton.

 

[vanuck]

Agreed. But most fans seem utterly unable to separate process from results (Marc Crawford was really bad at this, making him something of a fan), so I wouldn't expect them to be patient when it doesn't go their way in a sample size of one. Of course, this phenomenon also ends up leading people to celebrate the team's play after a shootout win and lament it after a shootout loss, even though the team played to a tie in both cases.

Great point. Hence why we hear so much talk from the boys about "the process". The effects of luck and things like that are rather under-appreciated by a lot of fans.

Next time one feels angry/sad after a shootout loss, pretend as though the game stopped at the end of OT - because that's what shootouts essentially amount to after all: just ties - and ask yourself if you think they played a good game.

 

[biturbo19]

he was benched because he wants to stand around and watch instead of do what he does best. Get his back into the game. Throw a shoulder into someone. Open up the ice for his line mates.

When he stands around like a deer in the headlights he turns into a fourth liner. This is not unexpected. Hes 22. I dont expect him to blossom until hes 25. Its going to be a very long learning curve with him, like it was with Bertuzzi.

Yeah. The Kassian benching/demotion really wasn't out of left-field or anything. It's been a while in the making. He's been showing off the ugly side of his game defensively of late, and his intensity level has really dropped off pretty sharply.

Seems eerily familiar to the song and dance Sabres fans recited when he came here.

But then, just like Hodgson has looked the same player we sent there way...it's not surprising that Kassian will have his ups and downs as well. We've all had a taste of what the kid can be. But it looks like we're now getting a good look at the 'geared down' Kassian lately. It's going to be a process. Hopefully he puts it together sooner rather than later...but who knows.

 

[biturbo19]

I think there are three things you can do with Kassian imo and you would have to know him as our player (like I hope our coaches do) because all players can respond differently.

1) Healthy Scratch- Get him fired up and let him know he won't be spoon fed a roster spot just because he was traded for Cody
2) Play him with the Sedins- completely opposite, lift his confidence by putting him with the red hot Sedins, put burrows Kesler and Booth and keep our third line like it is.
3) Play him on the fourth line, but tell him to jus focus on being physical out there and get into some fights, maybe once he gets more emotionally involved he will play his way up the lines. (kind of what hartikainen had to do in Edmonton.

I think we've seen #3, and it hasn't worked really. He gets into a groove as a somewhat detached 4th liner, lays the occasional hit, and continues to look like a 4th liner.

I think we've also seen some of #2, and the biggest problems there are a)it goes against pretty much everything this team is built around in the whole 'merit' department. b)When a guy is playing like Kassian defensively...you risk dragging others down with him as well (the Sedins in this case). and c)it doesn't necessarily seem to be the remedy anyway.

As for just scratching him outright...Awfully tough to do with a prized prospect like Kassian. But who knows, maybe that's what it takes.

I really don't know, and honestly, i don't think there's some magic tonic to get him firing at full intensity again at the snap of a finger. Promote/Demote/Scratch/Send him to the minors, i really don't know how much any of that is going to work on the guy. At the end of the day...it comes down to Kassian maturing as a player and understanding exactly what he has to do to be a great player...and actually going out and doing it. In the end, you hope that he learns to want to be that player that he can be. More than any poking and prodding type coaching decisions...it's on Kassian to decide that he wants to be a dominant beast of a player. Because he could be. The rest is just temporary band-aid solutions at best.

 

[vancityluongo]

I had literally no justification for this at all, but back during the 2010 WJC, I said that Jake Allen would be this generations Martin Brodeur. There might be a post floating around somewhere that proves this. Not that this game proved anything slightly resembling that possibility, but I want it to be brought up again in the 0.0000000001% chance I'm right lol.

_______________________

I think Luongo should still get the next start, despite maybe his worst game of the year (which is saying something). Sedins look to be heating up, Kesler looked good, Raymond seems to be getting it together. Garrison probably played one of the best games I've seen from him. Thought Tanev didn't really look himself tonight. Kassian hasn't been very good, at this rate I'd say he might be the scratch when Booth is back (and Ebbett gets sent down). Schroeder looked good on that limited PP with the twins and Kesler.

Despite losing, the team generally looked pretty good. Possessionally I'm guessing the Canucks dominated, although I'm sure there is *****ing in this GDT about the second period. Reality check, the St. Louis Blues are a good hockey team. The 2010 Hawks wouldn't be able to have their way with them for 60 minutes. I think a lot of people expect every game to be like when the Canucks outright dominate the Flames...

 

[Pip]

Outright scratching Kassian could do wonders for his game, or completely destroy any shred of confidence he has left. I understand that Kassian will take a long time to develop and there is bigger ups and downs with PWFs than most other players, but he isn't just "disappearing" for games, he is being a liablility which is just unacceptable imo.

 

[Pip]

I don't think we should start Luongo because if we do we are giving him the concequetive start without him really earning it. Schneider hasn't gotten the bennifit of having a "redemption game" right away, so neither should Luongo imo. I don't even care that he got lot up in the SO, but he played not up to his skill level tonight.

 

[biturbo19]

The other thing that concerned me a bit tonight, was that Schroeder while starting fairly strong, seemed to wilt as the game went on and the intensity and physicality ramped up.

It's just one game, and obviously the line-shuffling shafting him with some dead weight at the end of the dance had something to do with it...but it's still not overly comforting. In his first contest where the game really ramped up physically against a serious playoff calibre opponent...Schroeder got less and less noticeable as the game went on.

I don't have any real worries about how Schroeder will be able to cope through the regular season with a bunch of Division games against the Oilers/Wild/Flames/Avs of the world...but if we were going into a playoff series with the Blues tomorrow...i honestly can't say i'd be comfortable with Schroeder as the #3C.

This upcoming roadtrip should be a really good opportunity for him to show whether he can handle things and stand out when things get ramped up a few notches.

 

[Pip]

I think we've seen #3, and it hasn't worked really. He gets into a groove as a somewhat detached 4th liner, lays the occasional hit, and continues to look like a 4th liner.

I feel that he tries to be a top 6 player playing on the fourth line, I want to see way less finesse and just bring energy and physicality like Lappy seems to be doing. It can be incredibly fustrating as a playmaker playing with scrubs, so you should try to make the 'easy play' and work on his defensive game with the unfavourable zone starts. We all know he has the offensive skills to be extremely effective, but he needs to improve defensively and bring his physicality to every game. That's what makes great PWFs great, even when they're aren't scoring, they can still contribute defensively and bring energy and the power of intimidation. I wouldn't even of been scared of the hits Kassian was throwing todayz

I think we've also seen some of #2, and the biggest problems there are a)it goes against pretty much everything this team is built around in the whole 'merit' department. b)When a guy is playing like Kassian defensively...you risk dragging others down with him as well (the Sedins in this case). and c)it doesn't necessarily seem to be the remedy anyway.

I agree that this would be a risky move and could easily blow up in the nucks face as a young guy like Schroeder or even someone like Hansen sees a struggling player getting gifted time with the Sedins, but it could asle be a huge confident boost. Personally I would like to see him in front of the net on the PP, he can contribute and fill an obvious need on our PP while getting time with good players which hopefully build his confidence.

As for just scratching him outright...Awfully tough to do with a prized prospect like Kassian. But who knows, maybe that's what it takes.

I don't know either, would have to know Kassian more to try to predict how he would respond to it

I really don't know, and honestly, i don't think there's some magic tonic to get him firing at full intensity again at the snap of a finger. Promote/Demote/Scratch/Send him to the minors, i really don't know how much any of that is going to work on the guy. At the end of the day...it comes down to Kassian maturing as a player and understanding exactly what he has to do to be a great player...and actually going out and doing it. In the end, you hope that he learns to want to be that player that he can be. More than any poking and prodding type coaching decisions...it's on Kassian to decide that he wants to be a dominant beast of a player. Because he could be. The rest is just temporary band-aid solutions at best.

I doubt there is some quick fix and I also hope that he gets to that point where he can motivate himself as well, but he is obviously still quite raw and needs much more development to get to that stage. It's just unfortunate that we don't have an established player similar to him here that could help him. We need to help him get to that stage imo and it's hardly an easy process, and I'm looking forward to see our "most winningness coach" and his staff work on Kassian.

 

[timw33]

Kassian needs to work on his consistency, completely different player from the one in the first 6-7 games right now. We need him to be a contributor, even if he's just bring his physical game every night.

 

[Pip]

The other thing that concerned me a bit tonight, was that Schroeder while starting fairly strong, seemed to wilt as the game went on and the intensity and physicality ramped up.

It's just one game, and obviously the line-shuffling shafting him with some dead weight at the end of the dance had something to do with it...but it's still not overly comforting. In his first contest where the game really ramped up physically against a serious playoff calibre opponent...Schroeder got less and less noticeable as the game went on.

I don't have any real worries about how Schroeder will be able to cope through the regular season with a bunch of Division games against the Oilers/Wild/Flames/Avs of the world...but if we were going into a playoff series with the Blues tomorrow...i honestly can't say i'd be comfortable with Schroeder as the #3C.

This upcoming roadtrip should be a really good opportunity for him to show whether he can handle things and stand out when things get ramped up a few notches.

I am also very curious to see how he performs in a physical playoff series, but I think he has earned his job so far and there is no reason to replace him ATM because of future concerns.

I did notice that his play dropped as well, but it correlated almost exactly with two deadweights (Higgins and Kassian tonight) being dropped on his line. But then again I think that the hottest winger pair will play with Kesler for obvious reasons so Schroeder should probably get used to getting Kesler's winger scraps. I am eagerly awaiting these next few games to get our closest look so far at recreating the post season.

 

[Pip]

Kassian needs to work on his consistency, completely different player from the one in the first 6-7 games right now. We need him to be a contributor, even if he's just bring his physical game every night.

Unfortunately that was his issue in Buffalo as well, something that will take time to fix and there is hardly a guarentee that it will ever fix. A risk you take with a project player.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The other thing that concerned me a bit tonight, was that Schroeder while starting fairly strong, seemed to wilt as the game went on and the intensity and physicality ramped up.

It's just one game, and obviously the line-shuffling shafting him with some dead weight at the end of the dance had something to do with it...but it's still not overly comforting. In his first contest where the game really ramped up physically against a serious playoff calibre opponent...Schroeder got less and less noticeable as the game went on.

I don't have any real worries about how Schroeder will be able to cope through the regular season with a bunch of Division games against the Oilers/Wild/Flames/Avs of the world...but if we were going into a playoff series with the Blues tomorrow...i honestly can't say i'd be comfortable with Schroeder as the #3C.

This upcoming roadtrip should be a really good opportunity for him to show whether he can handle things and stand out when things get ramped up a few notches.

If Schroeder could stand out when the game gets ramped up a few notches against one of the biggest skilled teams in the NHL, we wouldn't be talking about a rookie adjusting anymore. We would be talking about a legit NHL top6 forward. One that succeeds at his position on a strong team. I think that's a little much to expect.


As long as he's not a liability, which he wasn't, I'm good. For now. He was creating in the 1st. Then the Blues dominated the 2nd. Followed by VAN taking charge in the 3rd, only they had switched the lines at this point and Schroeder was unable to take advantage of his new wingers. That's the way it goes. He's a rookie that is learning. I was more concerned about Kassian than I was Schroeder.

 

[vanuck]

If Schroeder could stand out when the game gets ramped up a few notches against one of the biggest skilled teams in the NHL, we wouldn't be talking about a rookie adjusting anymore. We would be talking about a legit NHL top6 forward. One that succeeds at his position on a strong team. I think that's a little much to expect.


As long as he's not a liability, which he wasn't, I'm good. For now. He was creating in the 1st. Then the Blues dominated the 2nd. Followed by VAN taking charge in the 3rd, only they had switched the lines at this point and Schroeder was unable to take advantage of his new wingers. That's the way it goes. He's a rookie that is learning. I was more concerned about Kassian than I was Schroeder.

Pretty much; was just going to point this out in particular. So it's hard to say which is the real case. I also thought he wasn't out there quite as much at ES in the 3rd.

 

[vanuck]

I feel that he tries to be a top 6 player playing on the fourth line, I want to see way less finesse and just bring energy and physicality like Lappy seems to be doing. It can be incredibly fustrating as a playmaker playing with scrubs, so you should try to make the 'easy play' and work on his defensive game with the unfavourable zone starts. We all know he has the offensive skills to be extremely effective, but he needs to improve defensively and bring his physicality to every game. That's what makes great PWFs great, even when they're aren't scoring, they can still contribute defensively and bring energy and the power of intimidation. I wouldn't even of been scared of the hits Kassian was throwing todayz

Lapierre and Kassian worked well together last season from what I remember. Perhaps it was just because it was a new environment and he wanted to impress, but he was hitting everything in sight and the fans loved it. I tend to agree though: while he's on the 4th line he could stand to work on those parts of his game that are conducive to the way that line is expected to play, i.e hitting, dump-and-chase, defense, getting the puck out. The simple things that anyone can do when the offence dries up and they aren't scoring. 'Cos then at least you're still contributing to the team.

One thing I've noticed about pretty much all our forwards is that AV teaches them how to get the puck out of the zone - whether that be chopping at the puck, firing it off the boards, flipping it up high or using whatever means to chip or muscle it out when it's near the blueline. Learning how to do those things repeatedly when needed is something he expects out of them in his system, I suspect.

ZK seems to have had some trouble with that recently so a stint on the 4th line may help him more than he realizes even if it does bring his confidence down for a bit. It's not as if it'll be a permanent demotion. Learning that aspect of the game so he can rely on it one day as a Top 6 guy for the times when he hits a cold streak would go a long way in making him a more consistent power forward.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I don't think we should start Luongo because if we do we are giving him the concequetive start without him really earning it. Schneider hasn't gotten the bennifit of having a "redemption game" right away, so neither should Luongo imo. I don't even care that he got lot up in the SO, but he played not up to his skill level tonight.

I'd like to simply because Chicago is up and you have to know Lu wants to play well against them. Granted, he started against them the last time. So I wouldn't be surprised to see Schneider get it. Eventually we have to ride one of them through a dry spell, lest they lose an edge. Constantly flip flopping makes it difficult to stay set on the game and not worry about playing again.

 

[absolute garbage]

Didn't like the 1st goal against Luongo. The rebound control was a problem, as was his body posiitoning. He didn't give himself a chance if there was a 2nd chance opportunity.

I thought Luongo wasn't as sharp as he has been this season. He wasn't on that Vezina level that he had been in his previous games. You could sense it even from the shootouts, those are a good indication of how the goalie is playing. Remember that shootout against Chicago when Luongo stopped every shooter? It was like night and day compared to this one and you can see it during the game too. Just a little bit off, the focus and confidence wasn't quite there. Positioning errors, not reading the play properly.

Kassian is playing like crap. Doesn't move his feet, doesn't make strong plays on the wall and tries to be too cute with the puck. Could see him scratched if Booth is ready to play in Chicago. Directly responsible for the first goal, horrible pass that led to a turnover.

Like mentioned, Garrison had his best game as a Canuck. Skating better, making stronger plays and taking control of the game instead of letting opponent do it and chasing the play.