Game 13. Kings win by TD over Leafs. 7-0. Does this mean we're a finesse team?
- Thread starter Papa Mocha 15
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Fair enough, but then we've seen extended periods of time where the Kings just aren't finishing for some reason. The "Lewis" effect, if you will.
Pens are not great on defense. MAF is not a great goalie. Was it 2 goals the Kings scored against them in regulation? That's is exactly the point. When teams start to be able to play any sort of defense the Kings struggle offensively.
Teams that play defense are a vanishing breed? Except in May & June.
Dowd: He's playing great, but the Kings don't need to protect him. He is not the 3C Lombardi is looking for.
Forbort: Doughty carried Scuderi on the top pair recently. It's hard to tell how much he's being carried at this point.
Huh? I could have sworn the Pens won the cup in June.
WHOneedsSOX
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- Mar 1, 2015
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Why are people still talking about moving Martinez? I've seen nothing from Forbort yet that tells me he should be protected over Martinez. Martinez is clearly the 3rd best d-man on the team, why would you trade that? Especially when the cap hit is so low.
AlphaBravo
Registered User
Yeah, comments like this blow my mind as well. Martinez is leading the team in scoring, has scored so many game winning goals in the regular season and playoffs that he is the defenseman version of Justin Williams, and is solid defensively. And people want to move him just because rookies have shown promise.
With respect to losing a defenseman in the expansion draft, we can just go with protecting 8 skaters.
Kopitar
Carter
Toffoli
Pearson
Doughty
Muzzin
AMart
Fobert
It sucks that we may lose Dowd or McNabb, but every team is going to lose a decent player in the draft. Frankly, I would be more disappointed in losing Dowd than McNabb at this point.
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Look at it this way, the gap between Martinez and guys like McNabb/Forbort/Gravel, heck even Gilbert is a lot closer than you think. At 29YO, Amart is a 3rd pairing Dman with nice offense who as I mentioned above might get surpassed!
As to why people keep saying trade him? well the answer lies in the affordable cap hit, the need to maybe protect Forbort/McNabb, the need to find an offensive winger for Kopitar and the desire to create more cap flexibility.
Ask yourself this, are the Kings better off going forward with a 3rd pairing Dman with a desirable cap hit and some offensive upside or with a 6'-4", 216lbs defensive stalwart with shutdown ability not seen since the Willie Mitchell led Kings...
If you haven't seen anything from Forbort yet, then I suggest you get your eyes checked because he's done exactly what you expect from a shutdown guy... If the eye test hasn't convinced you, then do what most fans do and look at his metrics and you'll find every player that he's been paired with improves dramatically!
WHOneedsSOX
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Does it matter? They won't be playing together anyways. Let Doughty anchor the top pair with Forbort/McNabb/Gravel and let Muzzin-Martinez be a ridiculous 2nd pair. Doughty and Martinez are too much of the same player. It was a weird pair to start with.
I seriously question the reading comprehension of some of you...
Nowhere in the comment I posted above did I say he would traded but rather I asked the question will he get outplayed by the kids??, is he trade bait??? Then I wrote "Its too early to tell".... A lot of this will be answered by seasons end but in the mean time having 8 capable NHL Dmen is a very nice problem to have!!
AlphaBravo
Registered User
Your point being? Sometimes players don't mesh. That doesn't mean Fobert is better than Martinez.
AlphaBravo
Registered User
You apparently have bad reading comprehension, by writing "Nowhere ... did I say he would [sic] traded" and then said "is he trade bait." The answer to these questions is easy. No. Martinez is a top 4 defenseman on a good contract. The market price for someone like Martinez is $6MM a year. No matter how well Gravel or Fobert play this year does not make Martinez expendable. You can never have too many good defensemen on a team, particularly ones that are offensively gifted and mobile.
If we go into the playoffs with solid top to bottom defensive depth, we can make a serious run (too early to say now considering we don't know how Gravel or Fobert will hold up). Why would we trade Martinez under these circumstances?
And again you overlooked the part where I stated that our conundrum would be resolved by seasons end.
Amart is not a top 4 defenseman, he is a bottom pairing guy capable of filling in for top 4 spot duty...
Go and take a look at the 8 defensemen we have and you could literally build 3 solid pairings in numerous ways with or without Martinez. The key will always be Doughty and Muezzin as our primary puck moving Dmen. What we've been lacking are true replacements for Willie Mitchell and Rob Scuderi but here's hoping Borts and Gravel become that....
As for typing nowhere, well that was a grammatical error on my part, however reading comprehension is the ability to understand what your reading guy.....
Yeah it matters. Huge in fact. You don't protect a 30 year old average middle pair guy just to lose a 25 year old super cheap 1st pairing shut down guy with tons of upside. Vegas will laugh themselves silly if DL does that.
Also, the Kings cannot expose Dowd. The situation is even worse there. Kings have no center depth at all, in no way shape or form do they expose Dowd to keep AMart.
1st pairing shutdown guy >>>> middle/bottom pairing puckmover. Do you folks really think McNabb is the Kings future shutdown guy with Doughty? Please.
PJ Kings Hockey
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- Oct 15, 2013
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Right. The lack of high-end picks, or many picks, has caught up with us in Ontario. Good structure, good work ethic down there, but not much cavalry to help us next year and the year after that, except LaDue and possibly Kempe. Dowd is a key player in the right role for the Kings, from what we have seen so far. He is not easily replaced. It's not just his own points, but the improved production from his linemates he brings out.
AlphaBravo
Registered User
What makes you think that Martinez is a bottom pairing defenseman. He could easily be on the top or second pair on most NHL teams, is a playoff veteran and clutch under pressure, and is racking in points now.
All of a sudden assuming arguendo that Gravel and Fobert have a good season, you want to replace A-Mart with them? Until these two prove themselves for two consecutive season that they are solid defenseman and have success in the playoffs, they should not even be discussed in the same category as A-Mart. How soon people forgot the difference he made when he was inserted in the playoffs from 2013-2014.
Quattro
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- Aug 5, 2005
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Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I think some of you need to review middle- and bottom-pairing d-men on other teams to understand how valuable Martinez is.
Reality doesn't seem to seeping in here. The Kings do not have 2 years for Gravel and Forbort to "prove" themselves. Amart just isn't physical enough for top pair. He is much easier to replace. It really is that simple.
AlphaBravo
Registered User
I still don't get your point. What does "1st pairing shutdown guy >>>> middle/bottom pairing puckmover" mean? Martinez is good with Muzzin, those two click. Simply because a Martinez and Doughty pairing didn't work does not mean that either Martinez or Doughty suck. If a Fobert-Doughty pairing works or a McNabb-Doughty pairing works, does not mean that either Fobert or McNabb are better than Muzzin or Martinez.
No one is saying he isn't valuable. He just happens to be the one that needs to be sacrificed based on the team's needs. This isn't rocket science.
AlphaBravo
Registered User
So under your definition a defenseman needs to be physical in order to play on a top pairing? Defenseman come in all shapes, sizes and skills, some are physical, some are good puck movers, and some are a combination of both. As long as they are good in their specialty is all that matters. That a defenseman lacks physicality is not an automatic disqualifier for being a top defenseman.
And yes, we don't have 2 years for Gravel and Fobert to prove themselves. That's why we should stick with A-Mart in our defensive lineup and give Gravel and Fobert time to mature into the top pairing role. If and when that happens, and we have the luxury of trading A-Mart because of cap reasons, then we can cross that bridge then.
Finding a top pairing shutdown guy is much much harder than finding a solid puckmover for second or third pairing. Not to mention Martinez is much more expensive. If you're a lefty and can't play with the best dman in the world there's an issue.
AlphaBravo
Registered User
I don't know if you have been living under a rock, but nearly all teams in the NHL covet a solid puck moving defenseman because of the speed of the game. Defenseman like Greene and Regher are dinosaurs in this day's league. So I don't know what is making you think that a top shut down guy is less available then puckmovers.
Your second point is also without merit. If your argument is that if you play with the best defenseman then you should play better, than your logic does not make sense. Doughty is better than Muzzin. So how is it that Martinez is successful with a less talented defenseman like Muzzin, and not with a more talented defenseman like Doughty?
AlphaBravo
Registered User
No he wont. I already posted above how we can protect both under the 8 skaters approach.
