Confirmed with Link: (G) J. Markstrom (30% retention) traded to NJ for (D) Kevin Bahl, 2025 1st rd pick (Top 10 protected)

[JimEIV]

The presence of Jack Johnson and Gubranson on the list is pretty telling

That's not fair.... there are also two former Norris Trophy winners on the list.

 

[HughesCorporation]

Ok. So you remove the guy who has actually done ANY crease clearing in the last year and half?

Are you going to tell me there was a better player on this roster at clearing the front of the net than Bahl? We need more so get rid of the best we have? Is that what you are saying?

no, im not saying that he wasnt a crease clearer either we need an upgrade either way and fast anti-krieder!

 

[guitarguyvic]

The new coach should help with the defensive structure. No way in hell Keefe is going to consistently send two defensemen below the goal line like Ruff did.

Yes hopefully Keefe will help tremendously. We will see.

Luckily we have a new coach, two guys that won’t be rookies anymore next year, our #1 D back, and free agency hasn’t even started yet.

The new coach is the most likely of all those things to have an impact. The second year d-men could vastly improve or they could also have a sophomore slump. Could go either way. Dougie is coming off a major injury and is a year older…the defense was also not very good even when he was in the lineup early last season. Having him is obviously better than not. What Fitz does in FA is still TBD, I’m not making any hard predictions about anything right now.

Your negative outlook for this upcoming season is noted.

If the team has another rough year, I hope the ability for you to gloat about how you just knew things were going to go wrong brings you some joy.

Negative outlook? I was merely making an “if” statement, because too many people think that merely subbing in x goalie guarantees improvement. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As far as what you would call “gloating”, I would call it more like pushback against the constant spinning of every single thing that happens with this team to discredit any criticisms of consensus opinions here.

Markstrom/Allen last year saved 28.6 goals above expected more than Vanecek/Daws/Schmid did

I just can't believe anyone actually thinks that this goalie tandem is not SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we trotted out last year. And before you say "WELL THE DEVILS DEFENSE SUCKS!", keep in mind that we have a totally new system, and that Calgary's D corps sucked (especially the 2nd half of last year).

We don’t know yet what our system is gonna look like or even what the roster is gonna be yet, so not sure where this level of confidence comes from.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Like Luke, Nemec and Meier?

You know, sometimes I'm almost jealous of your ability to deflect and pivot when you know you're wrong and don't have anything substantive to add.

So I'll ask again, since you didn't want to answer.

What did all of that crease clearing and physical play by Bahl accomplish in the end?
What difference did it make to a team picking 10th overall?
What did it add to a defense that allowed the 5th most goals in the league?
How did it propel our penalty kill to the exact middle of the league?
How did it make the team harder to play against?
If you had replaced Bahl with Hatakka or Misyul for the whole season, how differently would this season have gone?
How exactly do you expect to improve the defense without changing the players?

But if you don't want to answer those questions, feel free to explain bottom pairing defensemen and bluechip top-5 prospects are actually the same. I look forward to not reading it.

 

[Triumph]

Yes hopefully Keefe will help tremendously. We will see.


The new coach is the most likely of all those things to have an impact. The second year d-men could vastly improve or they could also have a sophomore slump. Could go either way. Dougie is coming off a major injury and is a year older…the defense was also not very good even when he was in the lineup early last season. Having him is obviously better than not. What Fitz does in FA is still TBD, I’m not making any hard predictions about anything right now.

Negative outlook? I was merely making an “if” statement, because too many people think that merely subbing in x goalie guarantees improvement. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As far as what you would call “gloating”, I would call it more like pushback against the constant spinning of every single thing that happens with this team to discredit any criticisms of consensus opinions here.

We don’t know yet what our system is gonna look like or even what the roster is gonna be yet, so not sure where this level of confidence comes from.

Sophomore slump is the dumbest phrase in sports. Sometimes players get worse in their second year, but by and large they get better. It's just a phrase because A: lucky rookie seasons are noticable and B: it's alliterative. So sure, someone like Scott Gomez who scored ~6.7 p/60 on the PP and 2.4 p/60 at ES was unlikely to repeat that because those are crazy good numbers - the NHL of 2015 was almost an equivalent scoring environment, and those numbers rank 11th and 16th overall in that year.

Just saying 'it could go either way' is so funny to me. It's so close to the fool's version of probability, 'well it's 50/50, it either happens or it doesn't'. Chances are that it won't happen. Players get better, not worse, at their age.

 

[JimEIV]

You know, sometimes I'm almost jealous of your ability to deflect and pivot when you know you're wrong and don't have anything substantive to add.

So I'll ask again, since you didn't want to answer.

What did all of that crease clearing and physical play by Bahl accomplish in the end?
What difference did it make to a team picking 10th overall?
What did it add to a defense that allowed the 5th most goals in the league?
How did it propel our penalty kill to the exact middle of the league?
How did it make the team harder to play against?
If you had replaced Bahl with Hatakka or Misyul for the whole season, how differently would this season have gone?
How exactly do you expect to improve the defense without changing the players?

But if you don't want to answer those questions, feel free to explain bottom pairing defensemen and bluechip top-5 prospects are actually the same. I look forward to not reading it.

There is a lot to unpack there and a lot of it is pure strawman hyperbole...

But let start with an axiom...if you lack a certain quality, a critical element in a 23 man roster adding one player with the desired quality typically doesn't get you where you need to be it needs to be spread and balanced. Thinking, or presenting an argument that a 23 year old in his full NHL season is going to or should provide a total of any quality is the strawman you presented. That's bullshit.

If you need more toughness on the blue line, more crease clearing you don't get rid of your best you have for a better one.. you add to the best you have...."a little more violence" Fitz was just quoted as saying...after getting rid of Bahl, losing Wood and McLeod and trading a heavy player like Zetterlund? Ok Skipper whatever you say.

Lastly Hatakka was nowhere close to as good as Bahl. Not remotely....He's not as refined, his positioning was wild and he's plays a an amateurish game....I left out Misyul because after only 44 north American games I haven't seen him really....and the organization never thought to call him up for a look...So I don't know honestly. But it seems absurd to bring him up at this point. Edit: and at the risk of sounding ethnocentric... I don't really care about what a Dman did in the KHL.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Yes hopefully Keefe will help tremendously. We will see.


The new coach is the most likely of all those things to have an impact. The second year d-men could vastly improve or they could also have a sophomore slump. Could go either way. Dougie is coming off a major injury and is a year older…the defense was also not very good even when he was in the lineup early last season. Having him is obviously better than not. What Fitz does in FA is still TBD, I’m not making any hard predictions about anything right now.

Negative outlook? I was merely making an “if” statement, because too many people think that merely subbing in x goalie guarantees improvement. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As far as what you would call “gloating”, I would call it more like pushback against the constant spinning of every single thing that happens with this team to discredit any criticisms of consensus opinions here.

We don’t know yet what our system is gonna look like or even what the roster is gonna be yet, so not sure where this level of confidence comes from.

so its okay to be negative about the team/system, but not okay to be positive about the team/system. Got it. Makes total sense!

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

If losing Bahl is gonna 'set us back', we deserve to lose.

It wont set us back but it is interesting to move a 6'7" defenseman after preaching size and the ability to be tough to play against

Id prefer if Fitzgerald didnt speak so openly so moments like these didnt sound so silly lol

Would make the deal 9.5/10 times with once being Bahl's size giving me pause

 

[Captain3rdLine]

It wont set us back but it is interesting to move a 6'7" defenseman after preaching size and the ability to be tough to play against

Id prefer if Fitzgerald didnt speak so openly so moments like these didnt sound so silly lol

Would make the deal 9.5/10 times with once being Bahl's size giving me pause

You’re conflating two things. Size and tough to play against. Ball is big. Ball is not tough to play against most nights.

Big guy that doesn’t play that physical or use his size that well. Couldn’t care less how big he is if he ain’t using it consistently.

Also not sure how in any way Fitz sounds silly. Apart from the fact that as I said Ball isn’t tough to play against, Fitz can add him in a trade to get a vital piece and still want to bring in size and toughness. Saying he wants that doesn’t mean he can’t add any big player in a trade for an important piece. Your posts sounds far sillier.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

For most of his tenure, Kevin Bahl may as well have been 6’0” not 6’6”. This mythical crease clearing ability of his is more revisionism than grounded fact.

Yeah, he may have brought that more often (if not incredibly inconsistently) than other d-men, that doesn’t make him part of the solution either.

 

[JimEIV]

For most of his tenure, Kevin Bahl may as well have been 6’0” not 6’6”. This mythical crease clearing ability of his is more revisionism than grounded fact.

Yeah, he may have brought that more often (if not incredibly inconsistently) than other d-men, that doesn’t make him part of the solution either.

"Most of his tenure" in reference to a 23 year old Defender that came into the season with 66 NHL games....

This place is a hoot sometimes.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

You’re conflating two things. Size and tough to play against. Ball is big. Ball is not tough to play against most nights.

Big guy that doesn’t play that physical or use his size that well. Couldn’t care less how big he is if he ain’t using it consistently.

Also not sure how in any way Fitz sounds silly. Apart from the fact that as I said Ball isn’t tough to play against, Fitz can add him in a trade to get a vital piece and still want to bring in size and toughness. Saying he wants that doesn’t mean he can’t add any big player in a trade for an important piece. Your posts sounds far sillier.

While Id like to have seen Bahl use his size much more, he used it more than just about anyone else on the team uses their's outside Lazar (less injuries probably drop Bahl to 3-6 range in hits). Second in hits isnt small potatoes and highlights the lack of physicality the team has

Also I didnt insult Fitzgerald in any way but.. I definitely think its funny to say the things he has, trade Bahl, and then promote 'violence' when last season the only four I remember any notable violence from were Bastian Bahl Lazar and Smith lol

Which is another reason I hope Bastian gets to stay; he earned it by standing up to Rempe and the Rangers when nobody else would. Even if its only a training camp opportunity

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Also I didnt insult Fitzgerald in any way but.. I definitely think its funny to say the things he has, trade Bahl, and then promote 'violence' when last season the only four I remember any notable violence from were Bastian Bahl Lazar and Smith lol

I don’t really see how it’s funny considering the trade Ball was a part of. He wants violence. That doesn’t mean he’s gonna avoid adding a 3rd pair defensemen to a trade for #1 goalies because he’s big.

 

[JimEIV]

Kevin Bahl, the new Jon Merrill.

We are still paying for the incompetent handling of the defense from the time of Merrill so I suppose some analogies can be drawn.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Bahl never showed any violence basically ever. So I don't think its funny at all that Fitz said that and then traded Bahl.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

"Most of his tenure" in reference to a 23 year old Defender that came into the season with 66 NHL games....

This place is a hoot sometimes.

I mean it’s still a tenure no? Can a tenure not be short? What is your issue with the post you’re responding to?

You’re a hoot sometimes.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

We still paying for the incompetent handling of the defense from the time of Merrill so I suppose some analogies can be drawn.

what GM was in charge when Merrill was drafted?

hmmm

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

I don’t really see how it’s funny considering the trade Ball was a part of. He wants violence. That doesn’t mean he’s gonna avoid adding a 3rd pair defensemen to a trade for #1 goalies because he’s big.

When I say funny I dont mean I disagree with the man; just that a small tinge of hypocrisy in his comments is funny to me

I would have made the deal myself if that's what it took to get Markstrom. But I would feel silly when I say it back to myself lol

 

[Jersey Fresh]

"Most of his tenure" in reference to a 23 year old Defender that came into the season with 66 NHL games....

This place is a hoot sometimes.

So now you’re baking in expected progression to backdate Bahl being “critical” to our defense? You can’t keep it straight.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

When I say funny I dont mean I disagree with the man; just that a small tinge of hypocrisy in his comments is funny to me

I would have made the deal myself if that's what it took to get Markstrom. But I would feel silly when I say it back to myself lol

I don’t see any hypocrisy and wouldn’t feel silly.

If I traded Ball for Cale Makar I wouldn’t feel silly saying I want to add violence and size.

 

[JimEIV]

I mean it’s still a tenure no? Can a tenure not be short? What is your issue with the post you’re responding to?

You’re a hoot sometimes.

Of course a tenure can be short...but when you hide that fact that Bahl was 30 something games above this being a rookie this season and act like he's a guy that just couldn't do his job as top 4 defender.... You're bullshitting everyone.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Of course a tenure can be short...but when you hide that fact that Bahl was 30 something games above this being a rookie this season and act like he's a guy that just couldn't do his job as top 4 defender.... You're bullshitting everyone.

Who in the world is acting like he couldn’t do his job as a top 4 defender? He was never a top 4 defender and I personally never expected him to become one. We traded a 24 year old 3rd pair defensemen. He’s fine as a 3rd pair defensemen, was probably never gonna be much more than that, and he’s a big but not overly physical guy. Had some value but not a huge loss. Most important thing is how he’s replaced and to be fair there’s a chance Hattakka could actually be a better player long-term if this opens up a roster spot for him.

 

[tailfins]

Why do people need to talk down Bahl?
Also not sure what other options we had other than giving up Bahl?

Fitz talked about the deal and said both sides compromised in the end.

It is likely that Calgary asked for Bahl and the '25 protected 1st in exchange for Markstrom with no retention and the Devils said the 1st plus lesser player / prospect for Markstrom retained. The compromise was likely the Devils giving in on Bahl and the Flames giving in on retention.

I think Fitz knew it would hurt the team to give up Bahl, but the upgrade with Markstrom (he thinks) is worth it.

So, on to the next. We've now got a clear hole at LD. What's the plan?

 

[JimEIV]

So now you’re baking in expected progression to backdate Bahl being “critical” to our defense? You can’t keep it straight.

I never said or even implied Bahl was "critical" to our our defense....why do you want make shit up?

I have said he'd be useful to our team next year even if in a Smith role.

I have said he has qualities our team lacks mostly the PK and size but you can add toughness

And I said he was a premium asset

And all of that is in reference to that we overpaid for 35 year old stopgap goaltender

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Of course a tenure can be short...but when you hide that fact that Bahl was 30 something games above this being a rookie this season and act like he's a guy that just couldn't do his job as top 4 defender.... You're bullshitting everyone.

He didn’t do the job you’re pretending he did - big difference. Now you slithered into a position where he just didn’t do that job because he was “only 30+ games from being a rookie (lol), which is a completely different argument altogether.

I’d call that bullshitting personally, but c’est la vie.