Basically we lucked into getting Sid and Geno. The org did the right thing and threw everything at the wall to get some cups. Now that they’re old it has to rely on being competent which is something it’s not. Did I get that right?
News Article: FSG looking for a minority owner
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HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
I mean, it is (no sarcasm, honest) great that Dubas has expanded the analytics portions of the organization, even if I think hockey stats are hugely flawed. But the fact of the matter is we continue to ice players with absolutely abysmal statlines for no clear reason, other than the fact that Sullivan seemingly likes those players and puts even less stock in analytics than I do.
So again, I remain skeptical that bringing in math nerds is going to do much for this club and the rebound if the decisions are still largely made by Sullivan or to appease Sullivan.
So again, I remain skeptical that bringing in math nerds is going to do much for this club and the rebound if the decisions are still largely made by Sullivan or to appease Sullivan.
- Jun 13, 2010
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Okay, I would be open to that. I guess I would counter with, in 2015, I'm not sure how many teams had analytical departments the way that we think about it today. I would suggest merely having a guy like Sam Ventura on the staff with his staff was at the forefront of analytics at the time. Now how those departments evolve over time is another thing.Sam Ventura was one guy. He's also been gone for four years. Dubas built an entire department.
There are five listed staff members under the Hockey Research and Development group on the Pens website, and they also have Jonathan Ehrlicman as VP of Hockey Research and Development Strategy.
Various articles have referenced expanding the front office:
It’s been said the Penguins were 10 years behind before Dubas revamped the analytics department, including swiping some numbers folks from Major League Baseball, including Jonathan Erlichman from the Tampa Rays in August 2024 and Wells Oliver from the Padres last December.
Dubas’s Numbers vs. Reality; A Lot Riding on Next Decisions
The Pittsburgh Penguins were behind the times. After the Penguins and owners Fenway Sports Group hired Kyle Dubas as president of hockey operations and later as general manager, Dubas immediately embarked on a modernization of the front office. It’s been said the Penguins were 10 years behind...pittsburghhockeynow.com
The Penguins have made ample progress in providing those resources to Dubas and the coaching staff. The Penguins have added to the scouting staff. They've added to the development staff,. They've added to research and analytics, as well as the strength and conditioning departments
Tom Werner: Fenway Sports Group 'confident in Kyle Dubas' vision' for Penguins
Fenway Sports Group chairman Tom Werner sat down with Sidney Crosby in March of last season when it looked like the Penguins' playoff hopes were all but dead.www.dkpittsburghsports.com
The Ehrlicman hire:
Hiring Wes Clark:
Penguins Name Wes Clark Vice President of Player Personnel | Pittsburgh Penguins
The Pittsburgh Penguins have named Wes Clark Vice President of Player Personnel, it was announced today by President of Hockey Operations and General Manager Kyle Dubas. Clark will oversee the club’s amateur, professional and college/European free agent scouting departments and will report...www.nhl.com
It's one thing to have someone with a background in analytics or to be open to it. It's one thing to have someone supporting athlete performance and recovery. It's quite another to have actual departments and resources devoted to those things.
We didn't "luck" into Sid and Geno. We were absolutely putrid back then and the worst teams got the best picks. The Pens org was on their way down and nearly out of Pittsburgh. We got what we deserved.
Yeah, not sure how much analytics mean if they're not going to influence the coaches decisions.
I mean yes, but it was pure luck we were bad at the right time.
- Jun 13, 2010
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Indeed. Looks at the 2025, 2026, and 2027 draft.
"Hmmm, Misa, McKenna, and Dupont. Innnnnnteresting..."
CheckingLineCenter
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- Aug 10, 2018
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Barring a cataclysmic event, franchise values are not going stay flat, much less go down, for a very long time. Even in a gate driven league.
KrisLetAngry
MrJukeBoy
Most likely looking for cash to assist in purchasing a NBA team possibly the Celtics.
Boston ownership group owning Boston? Seems like a dream come true.
The 2nd most valuable franchise in the NBA?
Boston ownership group owning Boston? Seems like a dream come true.
The 2nd most valuable franchise in the NBA?
DesertedPenguin
Registered User
- Mar 11, 2007
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They're not purchasing the Celtics. In fact, they can't. LeBron James is a stakeholder in FSG. As long as LeBron is active in that NBA, he cannot be part of any ownership group that owns an NBA team.
The more likely scenario is FSG wants to be the ownership group for an expansion team in Las Vegas, with LeBron as its primary executive when he retires.
Depends on how you define "cataclysmic event".
Economic signs and more recent trends aren't necessarily promising.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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CheckingLineCenter
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Idk man. I mean like yeah a COVID 19 redux, massive economic collapse due to world war or a nuclear strike, hyperflation or insane hike in interest rates to like 15-20% could make franchise values dramatically decrease. Something that fundamentally changes life as we know it in the US and Canada. But that would affect pretty much any asset class you could put a billion dollars into, not just sports teams so it’s not really discouraging to a buyer.
There are only what? 130 or so major league North American sports franchises? and maybe they make 5-10 more of them over the next 20 years. Leagues are starting to allow PE firms to invest in teams which only increases the buyer pool. Given limited data, the NHL is an attractive price point to buy into vs NFL/NBA from an earnings multiple perspective.
Only thing I’ll say after digging in is that I can see NBA team values flattening over time as they have a huge in place TV deal, massive cap hits, and slipping ratings. Tough to seriously project reasonable growth after the boom they just had (maybe why some owners are selling?)
All this is before you get into the ego/cool toy argument for these purchases for billionaires.
Mate, I had to log in just to reply to this even though I really didn't want to post around here anymore, especially with the blame going all over the place and the doom and gloom and what not in other comments...
@DesertedPenguin pointed out a lot of the problems and it's been mentioned here before, by others and definitely myself as well. Kyle Dubas only ever wanted the first role they hired him for and he's done a fantastic job in that regard, he fixed a lot of the problems Mario & Ron ignored and FSG had no idea how to fix, the issue was FSG desperately wanted him as the GM for some reason and I still feel he was forced into that role and the situation where he tried to hire someone else, FSG essentially pissed off a lot of candidates so he was left with one option.
The ideal situation would have been Kyle takes the Ops role he wanted and hires a GM. Hockey Ops is where he's done a fantastic job imo, building out areas that the team was severely lacking in because Mario and Ron had no clue who should do what to push them into the future and JR did jack all to build out any succession plans worthwhile. But when you interview several candidates under the guise of seriously giving them the job and then quickly pivot to Dubas who they wanted all along when the Leafs walked away, that has repercussions, why would anyone want to go through the process again with Dubas in charge now? They wasted a lot of very good candidates' time, some decided to just stay where they are and were promoted to GM or are in the process (Botts). Dubas wasn't gunning for the GM job, FSG gave him the Hockey Ops role to get him and then made it so he had to take on the GM role, at that point he has no one really that wants to leave for the job, there were several candidates that had a background and experience in being what this team needed to rebuild/retool/etc.
Blaming Hextall for anything is just not worth anyone's time since he wasn't even in the role for long. If anyone thinks he was this monster that set this team back in his 2yrs and 3 months, those blokes might be dumber than Josh Yohe or likely seriously believed the absolute garbage Yohe writes (especially that article he's quite proud of and has pinned on his X account), because months before that, Yohe also praised Hextall for his negotiating tactics amongst other things, so those believing an idiot like him are likely bigger idiots.
Ron & Mario being ignorant to what this franchise needed and what was going on was a major problem as they were blinded by the first cup run and again in the 2nd of back 2 backs. They're also guilty of a lot sentimentality with not wanting to move players and interfering with moves that they wanted from JR, etc. Ownership should never be stepping in, unless its to fire someone. FSG coming in and allowing Sullivan (this twat literally went over his GM and Pres' heads to extend on top of an extension directly with ownership and blokes here still don't find that odd) and others to tell them the blokes in charge need to be fired and then put all of their trust into Sullivan is the bigger mistake.
Dubas shouldn't be GM and FSG definitely should have stayed out of all Penguins management related decisions that they hired blokes to do, including any mention of Sullivan. Dubas as a GM is middle of the pack mostly, his biggest wart is not firing Sullivan to get a new system, voice, culture into this franchise - that's the most egregious mistake he and others have made before him and Sullivan in turn has been seemingly protected by two ownerships. But in the end, he's doing what other GM's have done before him - Making it the team the Coach wants and then taking a lot of the blame for it. FSG coming out to say they owe this or that to Crosby, that Sullivan is amazing, is absolutely idiotic. Also the frequency in their statements about Sullivan was always odd. So FSG bought into a sport they have zero idea about, then put all their trust into a bloke from their 'hood and can't see the issue.
Mario & Ron created the issue, FSG reinforced it, others in turn were written off as the reasons why this team is the way it is with multiple scapegoats. It's hard to say that a coach can do this much damage, but we are literally witnessing it since 2018 and all anyone here does is blame prospects, players, the GM, etc when there's always been one bloke that has survived all of this in the longest tenure as a coach in Penguins history. A bad coach can destroy a player as well as a group of players, we've all seen it on other teams, yet somehow, it's unfathomable that he's been doing it here for close to a decade, but it's easier to say so and so sucks and should be traded, Kyle/JR/Hextall ruined it all, instead.
Also of note...
FSG (Werner & Henry) were heavily interested in buying the Washington Commanders and didn't win that bid. They are also actively trying to increase their Sports Franchise portfolio with the NBA (Celtics), so as someone stated, they are likely looking to sell a minority stake when the team's valuation has gone up, to get more funds or draw in more investors to increase their ability to spend to get their foot into NFL and NBA ownership via minority stake themselves or a full on majority ownership like they did for the Penguins. It's more than likely nothing more than that. In the end if they wanted out, they'll be very picky on who they sell the minority stake to. Personally, I'd be happy with Mark Cuban finally getting his day with owning a local team and slowly buying out FSG.
I'll leave you lot with this before I sign back out. I am sure I might have repeated myself with some things, tends to happen when you haven't posted in a while.
Liverpool Owners Fenway Sports Group Expected To Make $6bn Bid For NBA Team Boston Celtics
Liverpool owners Fenway Sports Group (FSG) might make a move into professional basketball soon. The Boston-based consortium, led by John W. Henry, bought a majo
www.si.com
Red Sox Owner ‘Wants NFL Team,’ Could Buy Commanders
Fenway Sports Group owner John Henry could be a possible contender to bid for the Washington Commanders as FSG looks to sell Liverpool FC.
frontofficesports.com
