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Rumor: Friedman - Knies for Rantanen was seriously considered

Rantanen was not a fit for Carolina in that he is not a good forechecker and part of that is that he doesn't much like it. He is also not a wall grinder, cycle guy. So he wanted no part of committing to that.

Dallas is much more his style.. They try to come out as a group with speed, they try to attack when they get the opposition to turn it over in the NZ.. possession and playmaking. That's where he excels.

So, he would have been pretty much a waste in Toronto under Berube and would have disliked the hockey immensely. Knies is a much better fit for what Berube wants and that is what Tree has to focus on... or fire his coach.
 
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Sorry friend. Yes a club need depth. But it’s the stars who Win or Lose.

Objectively...

Do you think Toronto lost because Barkov, Tkachuk and Reinhart outplayed Matthews, Marner and Nylander?

Or did Toronto lose becasue they couldnt match Anton Lundell, Carter Verhaege, Sam Bennett, and Brad Marchand?
 
Objectively...

Do you think Toronto lost because Barkov, Tkachuk and Reinhart outplayed Matthews, Marner and Nylander?

Or did Toronto lose becasue they couldnt Anton Lundell, Carter Verhaege, Sam Bennett, and Brad Marchand?
Leags v list because their top guys lost to the FLA top guys. It’s a top guys league. You can think otherwise, Wilkins is fine. But imo it’s about the top guyss
 
I'd make this trade in a heartbeat, depending on how much Knies gets paid this off-season it could honestly look even worse. Rantanen is a bonafide superstar and is actually built for the playoffs, if you knew Marner was walking regardless you'd think that would incentivize you even more.

Look at where the leafs are now, they're losing an 100 point all situations player and are going to have to try to replace his production in one of the worst free agency pools we've seen in years.
Objectively...

Do you think Toronto lost because Barkov, Tkachuk and Reinhart outplayed Matthews, Marner and Nylander?

Or did Toronto lose becasue they couldnt Anton Lundell, Carter Verhaege, Sam Bennett, and Brad Marchand?
These are not mutually exclusive lol, you need good depth but you also need your horses to be your horses. Carolina is like the quintessential example of this - a team that's lauded for both it's forward and defensive depth that hasn't won an ecf game. You need gamebreakers to win.
 
Leags v list because their top guys lost to the FLA top guys. It’s a top guys league. You can think otherwise, Wilkins is fine. But imo it’s about the top guyss

Florida's top 3 combined for 2 goals and 12 assists in the series.
Toronto's top 3 combine dfor 5 goals and 10 assists in the series.

Florida's top 3 had a combined +3 while Toronto's were a combined -2.

Forget the somewhat meaningless goal that made it 5-1 in game 7, and Florida's trio is a combined +1 while Toronto's is even.

The Leafs didn't lose because of those 3. They lost because stars often get cancelled out against each other in the playoffs, and they didn't have the depth to match Floridas. Of course, it comes back to those 3 (and Tavares), as their inflated salaries played a large part in that.
 
I'd make this trade in a heartbeat, depending on how much Knies gets paid this off-season it could honestly look even worse. Rantanen is a bonafide superstar and is actually built for the playoffs, if you knew Marner was walking regardless you'd think that would incentivize you even more.

Look at where the leafs are now, they're losing an 100 point all situations player and are going to have to try to replace his production in one of the worst free agency pools we've seen in years.

These are not mutually exclusive lol, you need good depth but you also need your horses to be your horses. Carolina is like the quintessential example of this - a team that's lauded for both it's forward and defensive depth that hasn't won an ecf game. You need gamebreakers to win.

Take the flip side though... lets say they got Rantanen, and did a sign & trade for $13m x 8....

For arguments sake, let's reasonably predict that they wouldn't have Carlo, but do something like Minten + a 2nd for Laughton. They would have $15m in cap space going into this offseason.

Their right side would be Rantanen, Nylander, Jarnkrok and Robertson.
Their centre depth would be Matthews, Domi, Laughton, Kampf.
Their left wing depth would be McMann and Holmberg.

Let's give Tavares $6m of that $15m.

Yes, there's ways to squeeze a bit more money out of Kampf, Jarnkrok and Domi... but you're essentially trying to go into a shopping season with $9m to get yourself a middle 6 centre, a top 6 LW and a top 9 LW, and a top 4 right shot defenceman... with basically no draft capital to do it.

To me, that's a somewhat impossible task.

Yes, they are going to have to replace Marner's production to an extent... but we should also come to the realization that its not just those 4 that couldn't win... it's what those 4 did to the salary structure that prevented winning... so it's not as simple as replace Marner with Rantanen and off we go. We need depth.

The Leafs have theoretical pieces who can do some of what Marner did if given that opportunity. Domi has shown great flashes of brilliance on Matthews wing. They have a guy like Cowan coming in who obviously isn't Marner, but brings creativity from the right side for $900k and a ton of upside. Neither of them are going to penalty kill, but that's what your 3rd and 4th line should be for. Neither are going to end up playing a regular shift on defence because you get into roster issues for 1 game... we can live without that.

This is still a team with a ton of skill. They have Matthews who is likely the league's best natural goalscorer; who happens to also be an extremely solid two-way player. They have Nylander who is coming off 3 consecutive 40 goal seasons.

The Leafs do not have easy access to somebody that can replace the loss of Matthew Knies' skillset... and his skills are already in somewhat short supply on the Leafs.
 
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Given that Toronto was apparently on "Mikko's list", I beleive he would have signed here.

The question is -- for how much. He wasn't willing to sign in Colorado for $12m. Much has been reported in the media about the tax advantages in Dallas. If he wanted $13.5m to sign here, I'm not so sure that makes sense. Ultimately, I'm sure it was a really "close call" as to what the right move was.
He was never offered 12 in Colorado.
 
The proposed trade from Carolina was Knies plus the 2 1st round picks that went in those deals.

Laughton, maybe possible if you do Minten plus a 2nd or something around Cowan.... but Carlo likely not given the lack of space to accomodate his $3.5m cap hit.

I can’t see how Knies and Stankove held the same value
 
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While the goal is to win the cup, that doesn't mean you completely obliterate your future for a 2% increase in chance of winning the cup.

Everything is a balancing act.

They already obliterated their future..

They have no 1st round picks for 3 years, no top prospects, Marner walking likely for nothing
 
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They already obliterated their future..

They have no 1st round picks for 3 years, no top prospects, Marner walking likely for nothing

Let s see if Marner does indeed leave but if he does it indeed looks very bad. I think even if they manage to resign Tavares to a 7m deal, it means without Marner that they only have 19m cap space with 17 players under contract and Knies to sign. Let s say Knies signs for 7m and you plug in 2 players at league minimum or close to it. You have 10m to split across two players to replace Marner's contribution. This is not easy. They'll likely need to reshuffle the deck by trading one of McCabe, OEL (Jarnkrok and Kampf don't have a lot of value and I doubt they want to move Rielly Tanex Carlo) to get back a bit of draft capital and room under cap ceiling.
 
Let s see if Marner does indeed leave but if he does it indeed looks very bad. I think even if they manage to resign Tavares to a 7m deal, it means without Marner that they only have 19m cap space with 17 players under contract and Knies to sign. Let s say Knies signs for 7m and you plug in 2 players at league minimum or close to it. You have 10m to split across two players to replace Marner's contribution. This is not easy. They'll likely need to reshuffle the deck by trading one of McCabe, OEL (Jarnkrok and Kampf don't have a lot of value and I doubt they want to move Rielly Tanex Carlo) to get back a bit of draft capital and room under cap ceiling.

Maybe I am wrong but I cant see him possibly staying in Toronto. All The hate from fans and the media and the team itself, why would he want to stay?

He should pack up his young family and find a nice quiet city where it is sunny and 70-80 degrees everyday.
 
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They already obliterated their future..

They have no 1st round picks for 3 years, no top prospects, Marner walking likely for nothing

They certainly took a decent-sized chunk out of it at the deadline (as they have every year)... but they got back useful pieces at good contracts.

Yes, they'll lose Marner for nothing, but things are not as bleak as they may seem. Florida "lost" Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt and a 1st round pick for Matthew Tkachuk... the two had very similar production in their final years in Calgary/Florida.

Toronto still has Matthews. They still have Nylander; and they ahve a decent amount of cap space to go to work.
 
Let s see if Marner does indeed leave but if he does it indeed looks very bad. I think even if they manage to resign Tavares to a 7m deal, it means without Marner that they only have 19m cap space with 17 players under contract and Knies to sign. Let s say Knies signs for 7m and you plug in 2 players at league minimum or close to it. You have 10m to split across two players to replace Marner's contribution. This is not easy. They'll likely need to reshuffle the deck by trading one of McCabe, OEL (Jarnkrok and Kampf don't have a lot of value and I doubt they want to move Rielly Tanex Carlo) to get back a bit of draft capital and room under cap ceiling.
Knies will get a comparable contract to Wyatt Johnston, 5 years 8-8.5. Johnston is a better scorer, right now, then Knies, however Knies is a better 2 way player.

If Toronto signs him for 7 mil is likely a short bridge deal.
 
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Let s see if Marner does indeed leave but if he does it indeed looks very bad. I think even if they manage to resign Tavares to a 7m deal, it means without Marner that they only have 19m cap space with 17 players under contract and Knies to sign. Let s say Knies signs for 7m and you plug in 2 players at league minimum or close to it. You have 10m to split across two players to replace Marner's contribution. This is not easy. They'll likely need to reshuffle the deck by trading one of McCabe, OEL (Jarnkrok and Kampf don't have a lot of value and I doubt they want to move Rielly Tanex Carlo) to get back a bit of draft capital and room under cap ceiling.

Some of Marner's production will have to be replaced internally. If you put Domi in that spot on Matthews wing, he's going to give you a lot more than 33 points. Easton Cowan could make the team and pop 40 to 50 in. His 33 points on the powerplay might have to be replaced with ~20-25 from a defenceman and get away from the 5-forward approach.

Assuming Knies and Tavares are back, the Leafs will have 2 critical holes to fill -- a #2/3 centre and a top 6 winger. $10-$12m probably isn't enough to get both done (as the likes of Kampf/Jarnkrok/Robertson do not have a ton of value); but it should be enough to get 1 spot filled with a very high quality piece, and 1 questionable piece.

If you can go out and spend $7 to $8m well on a 2/3 centre; going into the deadline with an obvious weakness being that you're seeking a depth piece on the wings is a pretty good place to be.
 
Knies will make 11 million after the offer sheet

He has come out twice now, once on media day and once through his agent a month ago to say an offersheet isn't going to happen he wants a long term deal with the Leafs.

I will make any bet you want Knies doesn't make 11. Name your bet
 
They certainly took a decent-sized chunk out of it at the deadline (as they have every year)... but they got back useful pieces at good contracts.

Yes, they'll lose Marner for nothing, but things are not as bleak as they may seem. Florida "lost" Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt and a 1st round pick for Matthew Tkachuk... the two had very similar production in their final years in Calgary/Florida.

Toronto still has Matthews. They still have Nylander; and they ahve a decent amount of cap space to go to work.

This is some sort of twisting..

Toronto traded their future for depth players, not for a guy like Rantanen you can build around. Matthews, Rantanen, Nylander etc

Now also Florida didn’t lose them, they made a trade for Tkachuk. Marner is most likely walking for nothing. There’s no Rantanen, Tkachuk or big futures package coming back for him

Toronto went all in this year and will be a worse team moving forward. Hard to see them compete with that declining Dcorpse
 
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They certainly took a decent-sized chunk out of it at the deadline (as they have every year)... but they got back useful pieces at good contracts.

Yes, they'll lose Marner for nothing, but things are not as bleak as they may seem. Florida "lost" Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt and a 1st round pick for Matthew Tkachuk... the two had very similar production in their final years in Calgary/Florida.

Toronto still has Matthews. They still have Nylander; and they ahve a decent amount of cap space to go to work.
Weegar is a good hard nosed player. Huberdough and Nylander are marshmallows. Rantanen is a hard nosed player and a proven winner. He’s proving his value again this playoffs. Huge mistake by Teliving not getting the trade done to get Rantanen.
 
This is some sort of twisting..

Toronto traded their future for depth players, not for a guy like Rantanen you can build around. Matthews, Rantanen, Nylander etc

Now also Florida didn’t lose them, they made a trade for Tkachuk. Marner is most likely walking for nothing. There’s no Rantanen, Tkachuk or big futures package coming back for him

Toronto went all in this year and will be a worse team moving forward. Hard to see them compete with that declining Dcorpse

Yes, they did. They needed depth.

As for Tkachuk/Huberdeau - these are 2 guys who produced very similarly prior to the trade. They gave up Weegar who was a very important piece, to do a move, that from a strict offensive perspective, was basically lateral.

Toronto is losing Marner, but with that loss comes a bunch of cap space with which to spend.
 
He has come out twice now, once on media day and once through his agent a month ago to say an offersheet isn't going to happen he wants a long term deal with the Leafs.

I will make any bet you want Knies doesn't make 11. Name your bet
He is just saying that to please the Leafs media and fans 😅 Bet you if a team offer sheeted him 11 million dollars, he would sign it faster than you can say "bet"
 
Knies absolutely wants out. Why would he want to play in Toronto?
He will be offer sheeted by other teams and he will sign it because he will use it as a leverage to get a good deal. People believing what he says to media are too guillable. I mean would he choose a 7 million dollar, 49 mil Leafs offer or an offer sheet that's 9.3 mil per year, 63 mil? Answer is obvious
Knies absolutely wants out. Why would he want to play in Toronto?
 
He is just saying that to please the Leafs media and fans 😅 Bet you if a team offer sheeted him 11 million dollars, he would sign it faster than you can say "bet"

Like I said name a bet otherwise not wasting my time arguing over something not happening. Might as well argue Nick Robertson gets 11
 
The first time Treliving almost got his guy and nearly made a deal and was close on a couple big things I admit it got me. Aww shucks better luck next time Brad.

By the 10th time you get real tired of hearing it.
 
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